Rodgers against top defenses

[easyk83]

You can have your opinion but it's not right Players make plays.... He did just fine with the scheme the week before. He just **** the bed vs a good defense on the road as he always does. The worst 13 games of his career came against good defenses on the road.




I guarantee you there is no data to support this. He has a losing record against good defenses. And worse then that his stats are pure garbage in many of those games. In fact has had TONS of trouble against even decently good defenses on the road. (AKA Detroit).

First, Dallas wasn't running a true bump and run scheme, point for me. Marinelli runs a variation of the old Tampa-2 scheme. With some press coverage mixed in. Seattle is a pure bump and run cover team. You're comparing apples and oranges. Same for those old Frisco Defenses that Rodgers struggled with.

Second yes you can. Consider the schemes of the top defenses youre comparing. Consider some of the Pittsburgh defenses he's faced versus say the Seahawks or 49ers. Some of these defenses rely more on bump n run and some rely more on zone concepts.

Tell me, don't you remember when we had elite bump n run cover corners? How did players like Charles Woodson and All Harris fare against the Saints?

 

[easyk83]

Once again you´re hand picking a single game Brady had better stats than Rodgers to prove your point while completely ignoring Brady´s six career regular season games in which he threw four interceptions (Rodgers hasn´t a single one) or his three playoff games with three interceptions (none for Rodgers again). BTW Brady has had two career games under 100 passing yards while attempting more than 20 passes as well.



Here´s the passer rating of active Super Bowl winning QBs against top five defenses (based on opponents passer rating since 2008):

Brees 97.3
Wilson 88.0
Brady 87.7
Roethlisberger 83.3
Peyton 83.3
Rodgers 82.3
Flacco 67.9
Eli 66.6

While Rodgers has a significant dropoff compared to facing mediocre or bad defenses Brees is really the only QB with a considerable higher rating than him.

Which isn't surprising, the Saints offense is almost based around man beater routes.

 

[Un4GivN]

Once again you´re hand picking a single game Brady had better stats than Rodgers to prove your point while completely ignoring Brady´s six career regular season games in which he threw four interceptions (Rodgers hasn´t a single one) or his three playoff games with three interceptions (none for Rodgers again). BTW Brady has had two career games under 100 passing yards while attempting more than 20 passes as well.

Why is everyone so hell bent on interception rate. Yes, Brady tries to win games on his own even if his team doesn't show up. Hence a win with 10+ drops a couple weeks back. Yes he takes chances to win games. Yes that means he will have a lower QBR. Who cares!!!

Here is quote about him vs manning....

"It’s when the quarterbacks’ teams are down 9 or more points in the second half that you really see the difference. Peyton Manning throws interceptions on 15.6 percent of his drives, compared to Rodgers’ 8.1 percent. And for that, Manning is punished … by winning 28.6 percent of these games. Rodgers, meanwhile, wins 0 percent. That’s right, Rodgers has zero comebacks of 9 or more points in the second half. Ever."

Here´s the passer rating of active Super Bowl winning QBs against top five defenses (based on opponents passer rating since 2008):

Brees 97.3
Wilson 88.0
Brady 87.7
Roethlisberger 83.3
Peyton 83.3
Rodgers 82.3
Flacco 67.9
Eli 66.6

While Rodgers has a significant dropoff compared to facing mediocre or bad defenses Brees is really the only QB with a considerable higher rating than him.

How is that handpicking? Im showing the closest relationship between playing the same teams. Do they both have bad games sure.

And it's easy to have a good QBR when you are trying to preserve that more than win the game. Denver on Sunday was the perfect example of him being more worried about not making a mistake than winning. Not once did I see him take a shot to try and electrify the team. And for what purpose.... To not throw an INT? Great yay! You didnt throw an interception. OHH WAIT you lost anyways. Good Job!

I'd rather you try and fail, then to never try at all.

 

[Un4GivN]

First, Dallas wasn't running a true bump and run scheme, point for me. Marinelli runs a variation of the old Tampa-2 scheme. With some press coverage mixed in. Seattle is a pure bump and run cover team. You're comparing apples and oranges. Same for those old Frisco Defenses that Rodgers struggled with.

Second yes you can. Consider the schemes of the top defenses youre comparing. Consider some of the Pittsburgh defenses he's faced versus say the Seahawks or 49ers. Some of these defenses rely more on bump n run and some rely more on zone concepts.

Tell me, don't you remember when we had elite bump n run cover corners? How did players like Charles Woodson and All Harris fare against the Saints?

Ok if that is your point what is Rodgers QBR vs Tampa... Isn't that a pure cover two when he played them? I'm pretty sure the Giants who decimated us multiple times in the playoffs (Including sadly one time when I was in Lambeau) ran mostly 4 man rush, zone behind at the time. I don't get what your point is. That he sucks vs both if they are talented. I would agree.

How is that a point for you? Even if your point was valid, how is it not every bit as much his fault as the OC. He's the NFL MVP if he has an idea to fix it they would incorporate it. But he doesn't... Or did and it didn't work. That's not a point for you just shows failure no matter how you put it. Not to mention it has already been said Rodgers has full control at the line. If he wants something else he can do whatever he wants.

My last point to this is I still believe it has more to do with personnel... I bet if you look at his BEST games of all time they are mix of man and zone schemes. Not just one or another. But the common denominator being the defenses skill. Just as the common denominator in his bad games are defensive skill. Not scheme. Players make plays. No scheme is designed with no one to be open vs a zone or man. If so that is the worst scheme of all time and EVERYONE in the organization should be fired for running a scheme that doesnt work vs 50 percent of the league. To me that is just a lie people tell themselves to feel better about players actions.

I haven't the foggiest, I'm a hardcore Woodson fan but I sadly don't remember all packer stats by game back to 2006. That was a long long time ago.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

How is that handpicking? Im showing the closest relationship between playing the same teams. Do they both have bad games sure.

You´re choosing single games fitting your assumption while ignoring the overall picture. It´s true that Rodgers has struggled over the last three games but before that he was widely considered the best QB for various reasons.

Just as an example if you´re comapring Rodgers´ and Brady´s performance against the Seahawks during the 2014 playoffs you have to realize that a fully healthy Brady played the entire game against a banged-up secondary which lost Jeremy Lane early and had to play a terrible Tharold Simon (who if I recall correctly was targeted on three of Brady´s TDs) while a limited Rodgers had to face a healthy Legion of Boom for most of the day.

 

[TJV]

My last point to this is ...

My last point/question to you is about the timing of your participation on this site. Of course anyone can post anytime they like and you do bring up some valid concerns about how Rodgers and the Packers struggle on the road against good Ds. But I find it curious that you only posted for about two weeks after joining this site. That was after the Packers lost in the divisional round at San Francisco in January of 2013. Then you didn't post again until the Packers lost to the Bengals on the road in September of 2013 which made them 1-2. The Packers won the next game and we didn't hear from you again until after the Denver loss. So just as I see a pattern of Rodgers and the Packers struggling against good/great defenses on the road, I see a pattern of your posting here too. Why is it you only post after Packers losses? In spite of your protestations to the contrary, does your user name contain a clue about your attitude toward Rodgers?

 

[Un4GivN]

You´re choosing single games fitting your assumption while ignoring the overall picture. It´s true that Rodgers has struggled over the last three games but before that he was widely considered the best QB for various reasons.

And if I bring up the overall picture you are just going to point to time in the league... There is no winning against you.

Brady has a higher win % in playoff,

Rodgers 7-5 58%

Brady 21-8 72%

Higher win percentage overall
Rodgers 79-38 67%
Brady 167-49 77%

Away winning percentage
Rodgers 52%
Brady 68%

Home
Rodgers 49-10 83%
Brady 94-15 86%

Championship games QBR
Rodgers 55
Brady 80

(I know the point will be brought up that he is good in the other rounds. While I will concede he played well in his one super bowl. We all know the first round of the playoff is a real crap shoot and could play just about any scrub team even those with losing records. To me, the super bowl and championship games are the best of the best. That is were performance matters most and you need your best players to play their best)

Most importantly Super Bowls
Rodgers 1
Brady 4

Much higher percentage of fourth quarter comebacks... I mean the list goes on and on. If you base your rating on winning in the hardest time, under the hardest circumstances it isn't even a fair comparison. Rodgers is one of the worst in the league. What is he on 7 years without a fourth quarter comeback of 9+ points?

He can throw no inceptions in a 16 game season... if the Packers aren't competitive in half the games because they are down by 20 and not even trying to come back. And end the season 8-8. Who cares? Good job on your 100+ QBR man, see you next year.

 

[Un4GivN]

My last point/question to you is about the timing of your participation on this site. Of course anyone can post anytime they like and you do bring up some valid concerns about how Rodgers and the Packers struggle on the road against good Ds. But I find it curious that you only posted for about two weeks after joining this site. That was after the Packers lost in the divisional round at San Francisco in January of 2013. Then you didn't post again until the Packers lost to the Bengals on the road in September of 2013 which made them 1-2. The Packers won the next game and we didn't hear from you again until after the Denver loss. So just as I see a pattern of Rodgers and the Packers struggling against good/great defenses on the road, I see a pattern of your posting here too. Why is it you only post after Packers losses? In spite of your protestations to the contrary, does your user name contain a clue about your attitude toward Rodgers?

While that is a valid way to look at things by attacking someones character and timing rather than refuting the points they are making... No, I'm actually quite fond of the man myself. He used to live next to me Suamico I have met him and his brother (who took care of the house) until he has now sold it. He has gone above and beyond in giving my son autographed material even meeting my little guy.

I think Rodgers has the ability to be one of the best of all-time. But that doesn't mean he is infallible. I more came back to see what everyone had thought. And it was this exact discussion i was having with family on sunday before the game so when it came up here I took a liking to the conversation in general.

Also, if that was the case.... I only wanted to criticize... I think there were quite a few games between 2013 and this game that I could have done so validly. Buffalo, Seattle namely last year. But I didn't feel the need.

Edit: And I will come back to say hi win/loss next week. You for you!

 

[PackerDNA]

Again, lots of food for thought. And as usual, the truth is probably somewhere in the middle.
The stats comparisons are fun, informative, and add to the discussion. One game isn't the be all, end all. Anyone can have a great game or a lousy game. Citing multiple games over multiple seasons, while enlightening, can also muddy the waters.
As I see it there are issues with Rodgers, and I think they come down to intangible things, and probably from the neck up.
I see hesitancy at times. Play that makes it easy to suspect there's too much caution in his game. While I don't believe it stems from a desire to protect his personal stats, a guy with his proven abilities should be more willing to push the envelope and take risks when warranted.
I've sensed this same thing in TT and MM. All three have been in place a long time in football years. Are things stale? Have they reached their ceilings? Greatness will occasionally demand you take risks, to push yourself further than you thought you could. The talent and ability aren't in question.
For me, it's about how hard and far are they willing to push themselves beyond their comfort zones.
You've got one life. Live it.

 

[Carl]

This doesn't even make sense given the information that was given.

Brady -

37-50 328 yards 4TD 2INT

Rodgers-
19-34 178 yards 1TD 2INT (This is just plain sad playoff line for the MVP)

Our defense gave Rodgers 5 turnovers, not 1 as the patriots defense had.



Not true... And I will explain below



People also forget that a week before that Rodgers went 24/35 316 yards 3Td 0intsvs Dallas. And all the praise that he was getting. So you are telling me a week later he could do ANYTHING even with 5 extra possessions because of an injury he did just fine on the week before?

Yes he lacked some mobility. But soon enough he will lack mobility due to age. Does the mean we should expect games like that all the time? Brady is slower than most offensive linemen.

I honestly feel like Packer fans will make any type of excuse possible for Rodgers. (Ohh its Gronk, it is scheme, its injury, its one bad game) Fact remains he hasn't been good against good defenses when you compare him to the best. And the numbers can stare people in face and it gets deflected to someone elses fault.

If Rodgers is that good he'd be in the meeting rooms telling them what needs to be done to be successful, creating schemes in order to exploit the other team. They talk about Brady doing that right up till game time.

The overall opinion i have of Rodgers is, the man is accurate as can be. Against weaker opponents he will absolutely light them up. But against tougher opponents he shuts down easily, gets easily frustrated, starts hanging onto the ball too long not wanting to hurt his QBR. We didn't even try in the second half in Denver. It was depressing to watch.

You don't need the number 1 quaterback in the league to win the super bowl, but you do need one that doesn't give up the first time he gets popped in the face.

Seattle was a much better defense than Dallas. Also, even though Rodgers played well against Dallas, that doesn't mean he still didn't have a big strength taken away. As far as losing mobility as he becomes older, it's a lot easier to adjust to a gradual slow down due to age than an instant one due to injury.

Rodgers is so good at extending and making plays. It was gone vs. Seattle. None of Brady's strengths was gone against them.

Captain above just compared him to other QBs vs. top defenses and it turns out, he's not bad compared to the others.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

And if I bring up the overall picture you are just going to point to time in the league... There is no winning against you.

Brady has a higher win % in playoff,

Rodgers 7-5 58%

Brady 21-8 72%

Higher win percentage overall
Rodgers 79-38 67%
Brady 167-49 77%

Away winning percentage
Rodgers 52%
Brady 68%

Home
Rodgers 49-10 83%
Brady 94-15 86%

Championship games QBR
Rodgers 55
Brady 80

(I know the point will be brought up that he is good in the other rounds. While I will concede he played well in his one super bowl. We all know the first round of the playoff is a real crap shoot and could play just about any scrub team even those with losing records. To me, the super bowl and championship games are the best of the best. That is were performance matters most and you need your best players to play their best)

Most importantly Super Bowls
Rodgers 1
Brady 4

Much higher percentage of fourth quarter comebacks... I mean the list goes on and on. If you base your rating on winning in the hardest time, under the hardest circumstances it isn't even a fair comparison. Rodgers is one of the worst in the league. What is he on 7 years without a fourth quarter comeback of 9+ points?

Team record and Super Bowl wins don´t perfectly reflect the performance by a QB as there are other factors playing a vital role in a team winning or losing. The myth about Rodgers lack of fourth-quarter comeback is completely misleading as well. I´ve done that several times over the past years (and won´t do it again, if you care use the search tool to find it) but the offense took the lead on close to half of the games in which the Packers trailed in the fourth quarter just for the defense to mess it up.

Once again, randomly picking TWO games in which Rodgers didn´t play well doesn´t prove anything.

 

[Carl]

Why is everyone so hell bent on interception rate. Yes, Brady tries to win games on his own even if his team doesn't show up. Hence a win with 10+ drops a couple weeks back. Yes he takes chances to win games. Yes that means he will have a lower QBR. Who cares!!!

Here is quote about him vs manning....

"It’s when the quarterbacks’ teams are down 9 or more points in the second half that you really see the difference. Peyton Manning throws interceptions on 15.6 percent of his drives, compared to Rodgers’ 8.1 percent. And for that, Manning is punished … by winning 28.6 percent of these games. Rodgers, meanwhile, wins 0 percent. That’s right, Rodgers has zero comebacks of 9 or more points in the second half. Ever."





How is that handpicking? Im showing the closest relationship between playing the same teams. Do they both have bad games sure.

And it's easy to have a good QBR when you are trying to preserve that more than win the game. Denver on Sunday was the perfect example of him being more worried about not making a mistake than winning. Not once did I see him take a shot to try and electrify the team. And for what purpose.... To not throw an INT? Great yay! You didnt throw an interception. OHH WAIT you lost anyways. Good Job!

I'd rather you try and fail, then to never try at all.

Stats in isolation aren't tell all, end all. How many opportunities for 9 points comebacks have both Manning and Rodgers had? Rodgers and the Packers sure aren't down by 9 or more late often.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

I see hesitancy at times. Play that makes it easy to suspect there's too much caution in his game. While I don't believe it stems from a desire to protect his personal stats, a guy with his proven abilities should be more willing to push the envelope and take risks when warranted.

While I agree Rodgers has to take more risks in throwing guys open with the current receiving corps there was no reason for him to do that until before the Rams game.

 

[Un4GivN]

Seattle was a much better defense than Dallas. Also, even though Rodgers played well against Dallas, that doesn't mean he still didn't have a big strength taken away. As far as losing mobility as he becomes older, it's a lot easier to adjust to a gradual slow down due to age than an instant one due to injury.

Rodgers is so good at extending and making plays. It was gone vs. Seattle. None of Brady's strengths was gone against them.

Captain above just compared him to other QBs vs. top defenses and it turns out, he's not bad compared to the others.

What type of top defense? Points scored? QBR allowed? Passing yards? I would love to see his average stats vs those teams. Like sunday his qbr wasnt horrible 69.7. Yet anyone using the eye test wouldn't have said he did decent.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Sometimes I think Rodgers has a bit too much on his shoulders. He was anointed "the savior" several years ago and although it is true, our offense goes as he goes.....I am hoping that some other players on offense step up and stop making AR feel like he has to carry the team. That pressure shows on his face and demeanor. This starts with the coaches and play calling as well. When Jordy was around, he took some of the weight by making fantastic plays, but besides a few nice catches this year, who on offense has really stepped it up?

 

[Un4GivN]

Team record and Super Bowl wins don´t perfectly reflect the performance by a QB as there are other factors playing a vital role in a team winning or losing. The myth about Rodgers lack of fourth-quarter comeback is completely misleading as well. I´ve done that several times over the past years (and won´t do it again, if you care use the search tool to find it) but the offense took the lead on close to half of the games in which the Packers trailed in the fourth quarter just for the defense to mess it up.

Once again, randomly picking TWO games in which Rodgers didn´t play well doesn´t prove anything.

I could not possibly disagree more. The best quarterbacks are judged by their performance in the biggest games. Regardless of defense stats in those NFC Championship games. (which btw they had 8-9 turnovers combined in those two) Rodgers 55 overall QBR is unacceptable. Just think about that. He was better in Denver last week than in his two NFC championship game appearances.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

What type of top defense? Points scored? QBR allowed? Passing yards? I would love to see his average stats vs those teams. Like sunday his qbr wasnt horrible 69.7. Yet anyone using the eye test wouldn't have said he did decent.

I posted above that it was against top 5 defense based on opponents passer rating for every single season since 2008.

 

[OldSchool101]

And if I bring up the overall picture you are just going to point to time in the league... There is no winning against you.

Brady has a higher win % in playoff,

Rodgers 7-5 58%

Brady 21-8 72%

Higher win percentage overall
Rodgers 79-38 67%
Brady 167-49 77%

Away winning percentage
Rodgers 52%
Brady 68%

Home
Rodgers 49-10 83%
Brady 94-15 86%

Championship games QBR
Rodgers 55
Brady 80

(I know the point will be brought up that he is good in the other rounds. While I will concede he played well in his one super bowl. We all know the first round of the playoff is a real crap shoot and could play just about any scrub team even those with losing records. To me, the super bowl and championship games are the best of the best. That is were performance matters most and you need your best players to play their best)

Most importantly Super Bowls
Rodgers 1
Brady 4

Much higher percentage of fourth quarter comebacks... I mean the list goes on and on. If you base your rating on winning in the hardest time, under the hardest circumstances it isn't even a fair comparison. Rodgers is one of the worst in the league. What is he on 7 years without a fourth quarter comeback of 9+ points?

He can throw no inceptions in a 16 game season... if the Packers aren't competitive in half the games because they are down by 20 and not even trying to come back. And end the season 8-8. Who cares? Good job on your 100+ QBR man, see you next year.

I once remember Michael Jordan Going 0-7 in his 1st 7 attempts in a late 1990s playoff match. I also remember a Young QB a few years back that everyone said would get torched on the road in 2010 after their 5th regular season road loss. I remember both players holding trophies after completely dominating the best defenses those years.
One of those players is retired, the other is still working and hopefully, by the grace of God, will be for another 8 years or so

 

[Deleted member 6794]

I could not possibly disagree more. The best quarterbacks are judged by their performance in the biggest games. Regardless of defense stats in those NFC Championship games. (which btw they had 8-9 turnovers combined in those two) Rodgers 55 overall QBR is unacceptable. Just think about that. He was better in Denver last week than in his two NFC championship game appearances.

Why do you concentrate on his performance during NFC championship games only??? He´s the active leader in playoff passer rating so once again hand picking his two worst performances doesn´t result in an objective view.

 

[Un4GivN]

I posted above that it was against top 5 defense based on opponents passer rating for every single season since 2008.

Do you have those teams, Id love to see his "actual" stats... Not because I think you are wrong, you could actually have a great point. Im just curious cause QBR is sometimes mis-leading to a quarterbacks actual contribution or if he helped them win or not.

 

[Un4GivN]

Why do you concentrate on his performance during NFC championship games only??? He´s the active leader in playoff passer rating so once again hand picking his two worst performances doesn´t result in an objective view.

More because its the best teams... I couldn't care less if he can beat the Vikings in Lambeau in the first round. YAY FOR YOU!!!! You should destroy them. What about the best team in NFC, the one you NEED to beat to go to the super bowl. How do you play in that.

 

[I asked LT to delete my acct]

You have to love statistics

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Here are AR's stats during his playoff games:

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/R/RodgAa00/gamelog/post/

I'm with Captain here, you have to look at them in there entirety and not cherry pick a few to try and prove a point. Otherwise, lets just use last weeks game in Denver and declare Rodgers the worst QB of all time? But a 101 QBR average over 12 playoff games is pretty damn good in my mind. Of course when you play a top defense your stats may decline, but this isn't just Rodgers against that defense, there are a whole lot of other variables going on.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Do you have those teams, Id love to see his "actual" stats... Not because I think you are wrong, you could actually have a great point. Im just curious cause QBR is sometimes mis-leading to a quarterbacks actual contribution or if he helped them win or not.

Here's a link to this year's ranking with the Panthers currently the best team in the league. You can use ESPN to figure out the top 5 for the last eight years.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/team/_/stat/passing/sort/quarterbackRating/position/defense

More because its the best teams... I couldn't care less if he can beat the Vikings in Lambeau in the first round. YAY FOR YOU!!!! You should destroy them. What about the best team in NFC, the one you NEED to beat to go to the super bowl. How do you play in that.

What about the best team in the AFC to actually win the Lombardi Trophy??? I guess you're ignoring his performance in the Super Bowl cause it doesn't fit your assumption.

 

[Un4GivN]

Here are AR's stats during his playoff games:

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/R/RodgAa00/gamelog/post/

I'm with Captain here, you have to look at them in there entirety and not cherry pick a few, if you want to prove a point. Otherwise, lets just use last weeks game in Denver and declare Rodgers the worst QB of all time?

I concede defeat, the sad part to me is that you guys are so enthralled in trying to prove your point you don't see the other side. You are comparing games against 11th, 14th, and 3rd (Which he **** the bed against) pass defenses in 2010. The 29th in the Giants 2011, 32th in Minnesota 2012. Against top five in Seattle.

You are comparing playoff wildcard games to NFC championship games.

My point is Rodgers won't loss you the game. His QBR reflects that more often than not, BUT he won't win you a game that you are bound to lose very often either. It's something I have seen in him for a long time. He gets punched in the face early and he packs it in.

There are exceptions as with everything. And yes he has good games, but overall... I'm not nearly as impressed as much most of Packer nation.