Review Everything or Review Nothing?

[Cheese Headed Monster]

After this weekends games I have to wonder. Are we at a point now where penalties (or lack there of) should be subject for review? Should there be a challenge system implemented for penalties? Should there be a full time ref crew to create more consistency? Where are we at with officiating?

 

[Half Empty]

I'd be much more interested to see the nearest ref asked what he thought he saw.

Don't think full timers would be much of an answer - a rookie high school ref would have called it.

The thing about replay that boggles my mind is how fans, the announcers, the studio ref, et. al., can look at the same images and come up with different opinions. I understand the "it's too close to tell, so the call on field stands", but how often do we see the announcers pointing out that it HAS to be this way, when the reviewing ref calls it the other way?

Don't know what the technology is in tennis, but they've got that line call cartoon graphic that actually seems to satisfy everyone. Maybe on things like stepping out of bounds, something like that could be used?

 

[Cheese Headed Monster]

I am not a Saints fan by any means obviously, but that was just messed up... I don't care for the "They could have won it in OT" argument because of two things: 1. it never should have gotten to OT, 2. People underestimate how deflating a call (or lack there of) like that is to a a team and how almost impossible it is to bounce back.

 

[Stanger37]

I think there are more calls missed every game than we realize. The unfortunate thing on this call is that it was on the biggest stage. You think you'd have the best crews out there. We all know **** happens, and this should not have happened. But the fact is it did, and now it is all up to these hypotheticals on how the game WOULD have turned out. Everyone is under the impression the Saints score a TD and win the game no matter what. We don't know, there are so many people to blame that it is just the easy way out to blame the refs because a team majority of people wanted to win, didn't.

Everyone is also up in arms that Brady marched down field and scored a TD in OT and didn't let Mahomes touch the ball. Brees and the Saints also got that "unfair advantage" and it didn't work for them. No one would be mad that Goff didn't get a chance to win the game for them. Michael Thomas was too busy trying to get a call than actually playing the ball and that lead to the INT.

Stinks that it is the only part of the game people are really talking about and ignoring that the Saints were up 13-0, and the way they started, should have been more than that. Rams adjusted and no one knows what Payton was doing on that last drive. 1:58 left and throwing on first. Taking a time out with the clock already stopped. The Saints still had chances to win.

If before the game someone told you "The Saints are going to be up 13-0 after first quarter, and 20-10 in the third quarter at home. And for the entire game, Todd Gurley is only going to have 10 yards, and 1 catch for 3 yards." I think 98% of people would bet the mortgage the Saints win that game 10/10 times.

Most people probably won't read because too long, but there were so many chances throughout the game to let that call be the one to upset you. If it happened in the first quarter, no one would be talking about it, even in the second quarter. I understand the uproar, I probably would be if it happened against the Packers, so I get it. Wish ESPN would break the game down more than just that one play.

 

[Cheese Headed Monster]

I think there are more calls missed every game than we realize. The unfortunate thing on this call is that it was on the biggest stage. You think you'd have the best crews out there. We all know **** happens, and this should not have happened. But the fact is it did, and now it is all up to these hypotheticals on how the game WOULD have turned out. Everyone is under the impression the Saints score a TD and win the game no matter what. We don't know, there are so many people to blame that it is just the easy way out to blame the refs because a team majority of people wanted to win, didn't.

Everyone is also up in arms that Brady marched down field and scored a TD in OT and didn't let Mahomes touch the ball. Brees and the Saints also got that "unfair advantage" and it didn't work for them. No one would be mad that Goff didn't get a chance to win the game for them. Michael Thomas was too busy trying to get a call than actually playing the ball and that lead to the INT.

Stinks that it is the only part of the game people are really talking about and ignoring that the Saints were up 13-0, and the way they started, should have been more than that. Rams adjusted and no one knows what Payton was doing on that last drive. 1:58 left and throwing on first. Taking a time out with the clock already stopped. The Saints still had chances to win.

If before the game someone told you "The Saints are going to be up 13-0 after first quarter, and 20-10 in the third quarter at home. And for the entire game, Todd Gurley is only going to have 10 yards, and 1 catch for 3 yards." I think 98% of people would bet the mortgage the Saints win that game 10/10 times.

Most people probably won't read because too long, but there were so many chances throughout the game to let that call be the one to upset you. If it happened in the first quarter, no one would be talking about it, even in the second quarter. I understand the uproar, I probably would be if it happened against the Packers, so I get it. Wish ESPN would break the game down more than just that one play.

To all of that I'll say this, idc if its the 1st quarter or 4th. That Non Call should have been called at anytime. Thats why I am annoyed. The OT rules are what they are. We know what they are. I hate the OT rules for NFL. I am 10000000% in favor of college OT rules. Anyway, I am annoyed as a football fan that that call did not get made. Dont care if they had chances to win later. 1st quarter or 4th, SB or preseason. You make that damn call.

 

[HardRightEdge]

While I believe the NO play was PI, I believe the outrage over that one play is overdone. On close examination, one can see the ball was hot, wide and already up on the receiver at contact. It would have been a very difficult catch. The ref may have passed on the flag thinking it was uncatchable, not the right call but understandable in the real time moment.

The call that should have drawn equal outrage was overriding the Edelman muffed punt call given the benefit of replay. If the criteria is "what most likely happened" then overturning the fumble would be correct. But that's not the criteria, is it? There needs to be clear evidence the ball did not touch him in order to overturn and that was not the case.

I don't have any dog in these hunts. If anything, I was mildly pulling for a NE-NO matchup.

The first thing the NFL needs to do, before implementing replay on PI calls as being mumbled about in the aftermath, is improving officiating quality control. There isn't much consistency from crew to crew. Some are flag happy, others "let them play", and generally there's more "let them play" as the season wears on then into the playoffs. Refs are out there rolling their own. The NFL has failed to address this for as long as I can remember.

My favorite pet peeve has been the PI call since long before this NO incident. There is little consistency in how the rule is applied. The NFL needs to do what they evidently did not do with the new roughing rules, putting together dozens of examples of OK/not OK clips, not 3 examples after the fact, then train the refs while making those tapes public to train the media and the fans. And it does not help that the NFL laid out those 3 roughing examples and then the refs promptly ignored them, nearly ignoring the new rule as the season wore on. Was that some kind of NFL double-secret instruction? And it further doesn't help that the NFL comes up with rules with the foresight of a mole.

The "roll your own" officiating culture is going to be hard to change. In light of that fact, on-the-job training may be required, in which case review of PI calls is in order. I'd make that a coaches call and give him a 3rd. challenge.

 

[Stanger37]

While I believe the NO play was PI, I believe the outrage over that one play is overdone. On close examination, one can see the ball was hot, wide and already up on the receiver at contact. It would have been a very difficult catch. The ref may have passed on the flag thinking it was uncatchable, not the right call but understandable in the real time moment.

The call that should have drawn equal outrage was overriding the Edelman muffed punt call given the benefit of replay. If the criteria is "what most likely happened" then overturning the fumble would be correct. But that's not the criteria, is it? There needs to be clear evidence the ball did not touch him in order to overturn and that was not the case.

I don't have any dog in these hunts. If anything, I was mildly pulling for a NE-NO matchup.

The first thing the NFL needs to do, before implementing replay on PI calls as being mumbled about in the aftermath, is improving officiating quality control. There isn't much consistency from crew to crew. Some are flag happy, others "let them play", and generally there's more "let them play" as the season wears on then into the playoffs. Refs are out there rolling their own. The NFL has failed to address this for as long as I can remember.

My favorite pet peeve has been the PI call since long before this NO incident. There is little consistency in how the rule is applied. The NFL needs to do what they evidently did not do with the new roughing rules, putting together dozens of examples of OK/not OK clips, not 3 examples after the fact, then train the refs while making those tapes public to train the media and the fans. And it does not help that the NFL laid out those 3 roughing examples and then the refs promptly ignored them, nearly ignoring the new rule as the season wore on. Was that some kind of NFL double-secret instruction? And it further doesn't help that the NFL comes up with rules with the foresight of a mole.

The "roll your own" officiating culture is going to be hard to change. In light of that fact, on-the-job training may be required, in which case review of PI calls is in order. I'd make that a coaches call and give him a 3rd. challenge.

To your first point on the hot, wide thrown ball. I think you are on to something. Much like Nantz mentioned in the NE/KC game on the roughing the passer call. Not only was it in real time and as you stated, hot and wide. The positioning on that ref may have caused it to appear from his angle that the defender and the ball were at the same time and he DID NOT want to throw a flag and cause a sh!tstorm. Lot of elements not discussed. However, people will argue if that is the case, at least throw flag for helmet to helmet. So not winning no matter what.

To the challenging PI's. You are spot on. Crews are so spotty. They're like baseball umpires, they each have their own strike zone. But some of these NFL crews are worse because they make calls and also DONT make calls in the same game. Let them play or be very stingy, but have it be structured for the duration of the game. I do feel that challenging PIs would open up pandoras box for future reviews and slow the games down. Only time before a bad PI call in the 2Q is challenged and another bad in the 4Q and the uproar that already used a challenge so cannot do anything about the 2nd missed call. Think it'd have to come from upstairs if they go that route.

 

[Cheese Headed Monster]

While I believe the NO play was PI, I believe the outrage over that one play is overdone. On close examination, one can see the ball was hot, wide and already up on the receiver at contact. It would have been a very difficult catch. The ref may have passed on the flag thinking it was uncatchable, not the right call but understandable in the real time moment.

The call that should have drawn equal outrage was overriding the Edelman muffed punt call given the benefit of replay. If the criteria is "what most likely happened" then overturning the fumble would be correct. But that's not the criteria, is it? There needs to be clear evidence the ball did not touch him in order to overturn and that was not the case.

I don't have any dog in these hunts. If anything, I was mildly pulling for a NE-NO matchup.

The first thing the NFL needs to do, before implementing replay on PI calls as being mumbled about in the aftermath, is improving officiating quality control. There isn't much consistency from crew to crew. Some are flag happy, others "let them play", and generally there's more "let them play" as the season wears on then into the playoffs. Refs are out there rolling their own. The NFL has failed to address this for as long as I can remember.

My favorite pet peeve has been the PI call since long before this NO incident. There is little consistency in how the rule is applied. The NFL needs to do what they evidently did not do with the new roughing rules, putting together dozens of examples of OK/not OK clips, not 3 examples after the fact, then train the refs while making those tapes public to train the media and the fans. And it does not help that the NFL laid out those 3 roughing examples and then the refs promptly ignored them, nearly ignoring the new rule as the season wore on. Was that some kind of NFL double-secret instruction? And it further doesn't help that the NFL comes up with rules with the foresight of a mole.

The "roll your own" officiating culture is going to be hard to change. In light of that fact, on-the-job training may be required, in which case review of PI calls is in order. I'd make that a coaches call and give him a 3rd. challenge.

I agree 100% with you assessment. Sad thing is... its logical and would require a group effort on the NFLs part. Employees should be trained and that falls on the company to provide them with the tools necessary to do so. I think what you are saying would work great but that is only if officials and the NFL are willing to put the work in. My worry is that the NFL thinks "you're gonna watch anyway, so what do we care." And they are right...

 

[LetzBreel]

Seriously, what would be so wrong with giving the head official (Bill Vinovich in the Saints/Rams game) the power and more important, the common sense to turn on his mic and say obviously we absolutely blew the call therefore I am throwing a flag now to correct that terrible mistake. Watching the NFL this season has been like watching 2 different seasons. The first part of the season they called everything (mostly QB hits, which by the way lost 2 games for the Packers). Then they went from that to calling nothing in most cases. The teams in the NFL have shown that they will adjust to rules changes and move on but when a team gets totally screwed in a conference championship game, that's not acceptable.

 

[HardRightEdge]

Only time before a bad PI call in the 2Q is challenged and another bad in the 4Q and the uproar that already used a challenge so cannot do anything about the 2nd missed call. Think it'd have to come from upstairs if they go that route.

That would be no different than a catch/no catch situation in the 4th. quarter where the coach is out of challenges. Ruling on PI/no PI from "upstairs", which is actually New York nowadays, means every pass would need to be reviewed just as every turnover and TD is reviewed, some so obvious and quickly handled we don't notice they are doing it. However, with 80 or 100 balls thrown in a game compared to 10 turnovers and TDs, I believe the delays would be regular, overly intrusive and highly annoying. There is a lot of receiver-defender contact in man defense all the way down the field to the arrival of the ball to take a look at. Gotta draw the line somewhere.

Nobody likes the constant disruptions in the flow of play we saw in that NE-KC game, but we should accept it as the price of getting it right. If only they did get it right! It's good to be Kraft/Belichick/Brady. They do seem to get questionable calls going their way more often than against, dating back to the "tuck rule" game.

 

[Cheese Headed Monster]

Seriously, what would be so wrong with giving the head official (Bill Vinovich in the Saints/Rams game) the power and more important, the common sense to turn on his mic and say obviously we absolutely blew the call therefore I am throwing a flag now to correct that terrible mistake. Watching the NFL this season has been like watching 2 different seasons. The first part of the season they called everything (mostly QB hits, which by the way lost 2 games for the Packers). Then they went from that to calling nothing in most cases. The teams in the NFL have shown that they will adjust to rules changes and move on but when a team gets totally screwed in a conference championship game, that's not acceptable.

I wonder this all the time. People screw up. What is so wrong with saying yeah we should have thrown the flag on that play and will enforce it as such. At least fans would have more respect for the officials and league if they were like yeah we messed up. Cause then what usually happens? Usually after a blown call, there is a "make-up" call almost always a few plays after the screw up. That looks way more pathetic than just saying yeah we messed that play up and will enforce it now.

 

[PackAttack12]

I don't want to open the can of worms of beginning to review pass interferences. Before you know it, it'll lead to reviewing holding, offsides, horse collar tackles, etc. I'm all for getting the call right, but too much replay isn't good for the game. We have enough as it is.

The Saints got jobbed big time on that call. But the referees also missed a facemask on Goff that took a potential 4 points off the board for them. More times than not, the calls or lack thereof even themselves out.

Even though it was at a critical point in the game, the Saints just didn't play a very good football game and had ample opportunity to win it prior to, and even after the blown call.

 

[Cheese Headed Monster]

I don't want to open the can of worms of beginning to review pass interferences. Before you know it, it'll lead to reviewing holding, offsides, horse collar tackles, etc. I'm all for getting the call right, but too much replay isn't good for the game. We have enough as it is.

The Saints got jobbed big time on that call. But the referees also missed a facemask on Goff that took a potential 4 points off the board for them. More times than not, the calls or lack thereof even themselves out.

Even though it was at a critical point in the game, the Saints just didn't play a very good football game and had ample opportunity to win it prior to, and even after the blown call.

I don't disagree with you. But I know myself well enough to know that if it were the Packers in the Saints shoes... My lord I would even now still have smoke coming out of my ears. Playoff problems am I right guys lol Good thing we dont have to worry about getting bad calls in the playoffs this year! Hahaha... haha... ha...

 

[Dantés]

Eliminate all review. No replay. No challenges.

Also, delete 25% of the rule book.

 

[Do7]

I think there are more calls missed every game than we realize. The unfortunate thing on this call is that it was on the biggest stage. You think you'd have the best crews out there. We all know **** happens, and this should not have happened. But the fact is it did, and now it is all up to these hypotheticals on how the game WOULD have turned out. Everyone is under the impression the Saints score a TD and win the game no matter what. We don't know, there are so many people to blame that it is just the easy way out to blame the refs because a team majority of people wanted to win, didn't.

Everyone is also up in arms that Brady marched down field and scored a TD in OT and didn't let Mahomes touch the ball. Brees and the Saints also got that "unfair advantage" and it didn't work for them. No one would be mad that Goff didn't get a chance to win the game for them. Michael Thomas was too busy trying to get a call than actually playing the ball and that lead to the INT.

Stinks that it is the only part of the game people are really talking about and ignoring that the Saints were up 13-0, and the way they started, should have been more than that. Rams adjusted and no one knows what Payton was doing on that last drive. 1:58 left and throwing on first. Taking a time out with the clock already stopped. The Saints still had chances to win.

If before the game someone told you "The Saints are going to be up 13-0 after first quarter, and 20-10 in the third quarter at home. And for the entire game, Todd Gurley is only going to have 10 yards, and 1 catch for 3 yards." I think 98% of people would bet the mortgage the Saints win that game 10/10 times.

Most people probably won't read because too long, but there were so many chances throughout the game to let that call be the one to upset you. If it happened in the first quarter, no one would be talking about it, even in the second quarter. I understand the uproar, I probably would be if it happened against the Packers, so I get it. Wish ESPN would break the game down more than just that one play.

I am in complete agreement with you, that it's easy to blame it on the officiating simply b/c your team didn't win. What I've learned over the years is that if your team was any good, you wouldn't have to where the officials could determine the outcome of a game. That's why I say only losers blame refs. I don't like it, but at the same time The Saints had the lead and had multiple opportunities to expand the lead. Kudos to LA coming back the way they did.

I get that the Saints got hosed and whatnot, but it's not like they aren't the only team that's been victimized by bad officiating. Look at 2009 when we lost against Arizona in OT. That was clearly a facemask.

Also I am loving how everyone is outraged about the OT rules, how many times have we had to sit back and watch the opposing team win the game and Rodgers didn't get a chance to go on the field? 2014 and 2015 comes to mind. Where was everyone then?

 

[Half Empty]

I'm guessing, primarily because you're pretty new, that there actually was a good deal of outrage any time a call went against the Pack and in any OT losses.

 

[Cheese Headed Monster]

I am in complete agreement with you, that it's easy to blame it on the officiating simply b/c your team didn't win. What I've learned over the years is that if your team was any good, you wouldn't have to where the officials could determine the outcome of a game. That's why I say only losers blame refs. I don't like it, but at the same time The Saints had the lead and had multiple opportunities to expand the lead. Kudos to LA coming back the way they did.

I get that the Saints got hosed and whatnot, but it's not like they aren't the only team that's been victimized by bad officiating. Look at 2009 when we lost against Arizona in OT. That was clearly a facemask.

Also I am loving how everyone is outraged about the OT rules, how many times have we had to sit back and watch the opposing team win the game and Rodgers didn't get a chance to go on the field? 2014 and 2015 comes to mind. Where was everyone then?

In my opinion win or lose in OT, OT rules are garbage. If the Packer win in OT great but its still garbage. If the Packers lose in OT, still garbage. College football does OT 1000 times better. I will admit this is just my opinion but this is something that would take a miracle to convince me that the NFL OT is better than college football OT as is presently stands

 

[Cheese Headed Monster]

I'm guessing, primarily because you're pretty new, that there actually was a good deal of outrage any time a call went against the Pack and in any OT losses.

I apologize if you were not talking to me, but ill copy and paste another response I had below. "In my opinion win or lose in OT, OT rules are garbage. If the Packer win in OT great but its still garbage. If the Packers lose in OT, still garbage. College football does OT 1000 times better. I will admit this is just my opinion but this is something that would take a miracle to convince me that the NFL OT is better than college football OT as is presently stands"

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Coaches get 3 challenges per game. First successful challenge doesn't cost you one, but 4 max for entire game. That should eliminate challenges on the little things.

Any play is reviewable.

Coaches will learn not to burn up all their challenges needlessly.

I get some peoples frustration with replay. It takes time and still may not always get it right. But getting it to replay, increases the chances that it will be the right call in the end.

 

[Cheese Headed Monster]

Coaches get 3 challenges per game. First successful challenge doesn't cost you one, but 4 max for entire game. That should eliminate challenges on the little things.

Any play is reviewable.

Coaches will learn not to burn up all their challenges needlessly.

I get some peoples frustration with replay. It takes time and still may not always get it right. But getting it to replay, increases the chances that it will be the right call in the end.

I agree with this completely! I don't understand the people arguing against it? What harm could 3 call challenges do? The percentages are very high that coaches would save them for later in the game so it would not slow the game down. It would still allow for the "human element" because a PI call under review in the booth is still subject to human discretion however it dramatically increases the odds of call accuracy. I cannot for the life of me not understand why this isnt a thing already.

 

[Half Empty]

I apologize if you were not talking to me, but ill copy and paste another response I had below. "In my opinion win or lose in OT, OT rules are garbage. If the Packer win in OT great but its still garbage. If the Packers lose in OT, still garbage. College football does OT 1000 times better. I will admit this is just my opinion but this is something that would take a miracle to convince me that the NFL OT is better than college football OT as is presently stands"

I was responding to Do7's comment about previous forum reaction (or lack thereof) to Packer OT games.

 

[Stanger37]

In my opinion win or lose in OT, OT rules are garbage. If the Packer win in OT great but its still garbage. If the Packers lose in OT, still garbage. College football does OT 1000 times better. I will admit this is just my opinion but this is something that would take a miracle to convince me that the NFL OT is better than college football OT as is presently stands

With how fast the college offenses move, I think the college OT rules fit that, younger guys. With the ground and pound beatings that the OLine/DLine take through the course of a game, many of those guys in their 30s. I don't think you can expect them to keep up the level of play to keep up with that. It would be a waterdown product and the NFL doesn't want that. I am not here to provide the miracle you are looking for. I don't know what the answer is for NFL OT rules, but much like the miracle you need to convince you, that same (but opposite) miracle would be needed to convince a 300lb 30 year old to do again for an undetermined amount of time and risk injury the longer it goes on.

 

[Mondio]

Review nothing

OT is fine. There is no perfect scenario, and football is just as much about defense as offense. Stop them.

 

[Dantés]

They're going to find a way to screw it up, no matter how much review you put into the game. Just get rid of all of it and make the games easier to watch.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

With how fast the college offenses move, I think the college OT rules fit that, younger guys. With the ground and pound beatings that the OLine/DLine take through the course of a game, many of those guys in their 30s. I don't think you can expect them to keep up the level of play to keep up with that. It would be a waterdown product and the NFL doesn't want that. I am not here to provide the miracle you are looking for. I don't know what the answer is for NFL OT rules, but much like the miracle you need to convince you, that same (but opposite) miracle would be needed to convince a 300lb 30 year old to do again for an undetermined amount of time and risk injury the longer it goes on.

Well in either scenario, those 300# 30 year olds still have to play. There have been as many as 7 OT periods played in a college game. So I don't think that is really the problem/solution.

Personally, I prefer just adding 10 minutes to the clock and continue play wherever it may be when the 4th quarter expires. At the end of the 10 minutes, team with most points win. Regular seasons can end in a tie, playoffs its play until someone wins.