Rebuild a new LaFleur offense or get what Pettine needs on defense?

[Deleted member 6794]

i get that, it's one of those situations where you don't want to hinder progress of good young players, but at the same time another vet receiver would probably make a big difference. these kind of things is why MLF gets paid the big bucks

First of all both MVS and EQ should receive enough playing time even with another veteran wide receiver on the roster. More importantly though with Rodgers getting up there in age the team has to start worrying about the talent level of the current roster and not the one some years down the road with youngsters possibly developing.

 

[GreenBaySlacker]

Both first round picks need to be spent on the lines. Mo wilkerson absolutely needs to be replaced, even if he manages a solid comeback. Our online is inconsistent. And I believe that is due to depth not being up to the task. This group needs to be built back up through the draft. Starting with a 1st rounder and a few day three picks for good measure.

 

[Firethorn1001]

I don't see the offense being rebuilt. I see the normal influx of talent via the draft to backup positions save for guard where I think they really need it. If they spent the #12 pick at WR or OL, wouldn't be surprising, but I wouldn't consider that a rebuild. The offense is generally going to be the bodies that were there this year. The OLB group is not good. Matthews gone, Perry useless, Fackrell who knows if last year was just an illusion and Gilbert. Plus, safety help is needed. Logic dictates that the emphasis will still be on the defensive side just given the holes due to TT's horrible drafting.

 

[brandon2348]

I don't see the offense being rebuilt. I see the normal influx of talent via the draft to backup positions save for guard where I think they really need it. If they spent the #12 pick at WR or OL, wouldn't be surprising, but I wouldn't consider that a rebuild. The offense is generally going to be the bodies that were there this year. The OLB group is not good. Matthews gone, Perry useless, Fackrell who knows if last year was just an illusion and Gilbert. Plus, safety help is needed. Logic dictates that the emphasis will still be on the defensive side just given the holes due to TT's horrible drafting.

I would add after what I saw tonight they need more help on the D-Line too. There are holes everywhere.

 

[scotscheese]

First of all both MVS and EQ should receive enough playing time even with another veteran wide receiver on the roster. More importantly though with Rodgers getting up there in age the team has to start worrying about the talent level of the current roster and not the one some years down the road with youngsters possibly developing.

I'd say we still need to do both. while we need to provide AR with enough protection and weaponry to try and win another rig or two. we aslo need to consider that we're not going to have a 3rd QB in a row that is a possible HOF'er, in which case i'd say the team needs to have a higher general talent standard to compete

 

[Sunshinepacker]

The talent on offense is sufficient to be elite; find a mediocre RG and the oline is one of the NFL's best when healthy. Get a reliable second WR and that's all the offense really needs. The defense is bereft of talent rushing the passer which is only the most important thing for a defense to do.

 

[brandon2348]

The talent on offense is sufficient to be elite; find a mediocre RG and the oline is one of the NFL's best when healthy. Get a reliable second WR and that's all the offense really needs. The defense is bereft of talent rushing the passer which is only the most important thing for a defense to do.

The defense is a mess but the offense needs some help to be elite. Bulaga cannot be counted on. So in a sense we need a RG and a RT.

I believe they need another RB as Jones is a 12-15 type carry back and has been injured both seasons so far. William's is universal and okay but would like to see him as the 3rd option. An upgrade here wouldn't hurt.

They need a slot receiver and possibly a TE.

If they add that to the offense we should be good.

 

[PackAttack12]

The defense is a mess but the offense needs some help to be elite. Bulaga cannot be counted on. So in a sense we need a RG and a RT.

I believe they need another RB as Jones is a 12-15 type carry back and has been injured both seasons so far. William's is universal and okay but would like to see him as the 3rd option. An upgrade here wouldn't hurt.

They need a slot receiver and possibly a TE.

If they add that to the offense we should be good.

This is pretty spot on.

The left side of the line is in good, even great shape. The right side of the line is in desperate need of a major overhaul.

I'm up in the air on the running back situation. Another one would be nice, but as for where it ranks on the priority list among everything you mentioned, it's at the very bottom for me.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

I'd say we still need to do both. while we need to provide AR with enough protection and weaponry to try and win another rig or two. we aslo need to consider that we're not going to have a 3rd QB in a row that is a possible HOF'er, in which case i'd say the team needs to have a higher general talent standard to compete

At this point the Packers shouldn't care about what happens after Rodgers retires but do everything necessary to win another Super Bowl as long as he's around.

 

[OldSchool101]

First of all both MVS and EQ should receive enough playing time even with another veteran wide receiver on the roster. More importantly though with Rodgers getting up there in age the team has to start worrying about the talent level of the current roster and not the one some years down the road with youngsters possibly developing.

Agreed. We’ve always been a team that spread the ball around pretty good. I fully expect 2 of that grouping of 4-5 newer Wideouts to step up their game.

I'd say we still need to do both. while we need to provide AR with enough protection and weaponry to try and win another rig or two. we aslo need to consider that we're not going to have a 3rd QB in a row that is a possible HOF'er, in which case i'd say the team needs to have a higher general talent standard to compete

if we work things correctly we can have our cake and eat it too. Obviously building a team to improve never stops, but with that said, I feel we can get about 70% of the positions filled and be improved by years end. So marked improvement at about 7 of 10 key positions would be a good goal (keeping in mind our FA losses)
My guess is a NET 2 improvements through free agency or offseason trades, a NET 3 improvements through this coming draft and then getting increased production from 2-3 current players from the current roster field. This is where having a relatively young team begins to come to fruition. I would’ve never thought a guy like Kyler would go from getting pushed around like a kid in his rookie season a few years ago to our current sack leader. We absolutely have to do a better job pushing our young guys to fulfill their potential.

 

[PackAttack12]

At this point the Packers shouldn't care about what happens after Rodgers retires but do everything necessary to win another Super Bowl as long as he's around.

Yep.

It's a win now league especially when you have an aging quarterback. The Packers were fortunate to have two hall of fame quarterbacks in a row, the chances of snagging a third in a row aren't that great. Hopefully it happens, but the odds are against it.

The window is now to do what is necessary to win more Super Bowls.

 

[Ogsponge]

If defense wins championships the superbowl would be the Bears vs. the Ravens. The league has transitioned to high octane offenses. The Rams, Chiefs, Pats and Saints were all within the top 5 in total offense. There isn't really a great defense amongst those 4 teams.

LMAO, how many times must this be debunked? Apparently over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again.

The Patriots defense was ranked 7th, a great defense and it showed yet once again as it completely dismantled the Rams. I have shown the stats, yes you have to have a good offense but a good defense is also necessary.

The Chiefs lost because they had a horrendous defense, the Rams got manhandled by defense.

In the name of all that is holy it is NOT an offensive league. It is quite simply a well balanced team league

 

[OldSchool101]

I’ll tell you one thing for certain. Neither Offense deserved to win that game.

Both Defenses played absolutely fantastic and if there was a game trophy to hand out it should’ve went to the Defense. The Defenses literally broke a SB record and you could see it on the field all day Sunday. I’d also give the ST units honorable mention. They were well disciplined and didn’t give up any big plays. They generally pinned teams deep in their own territory. Other than a missed FG by the Patriots they played stellar. Even the punts that were short (under 40 yards) went out of bounds and were not returnable. One punt broke a SB record.


https://www.sbnation.com/nfl/2019/1/24/18194452/super-bowl-history-defense-rankings-rams-patriots

This was written before the game btw. The best defenses win 66% of the time. It absolutely takes a balanced team to get to the big game but it’s an exception when the better defense loses, not the rule.
I guess my only contention is I’ve never seen the same stats for the best SB Offenses. Many of the 66% may have also had the best Offense also so those were mutual.
Does anyone have a Superbowl stat on the winning % of the better Offense?? I’ll admit I’m too lazy to shorthand it manually.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

I’ll tell you one thing for certain. Neither Offense deserved to win that game.

Both Defenses played absolutely fantastic and if there was a game trophy to hand out it should’ve went to the Defense. The Defenses literally broke a SB record and you could see it on the field all day Sunday. I’d also give the ST units honorable mention. They were well disciplined and didn’t give up any big plays. They generally pinned teams deep in their own territory. Other than a missed FG by the Patriots they played stellar. Even the punts that were short (under 40 yards) went out of bounds and were not returnable. One punt broke a SB record.


https://www.sbnation.com/nfl/2019/1/24/18194452/super-bowl-history-defense-rankings-rams-patriots

This was written before the game btw. The best defenses win 66% of the time. It absolutely takes a balanced team to get to the big game but it’s an exception when the better defense loses, not the rule.
I guess my only contention is I’ve never seen the same stats for the best SB Offenses. Many of the 66% may have also had the best Offense also so those were mutual.
Does anyone have a Superbowl stat on the winning % of the better Offense?? I’ll admit I’m too lazy to shorthand it manually.

Since the merger 26 teams with the better offense have won the Super Bowl while losing 21 games. Twice both offenses had scored the same amount of points in the regular season.

 

[OldSchool101]

Since the merger 26 teams with the better offense has won the Super Bowl while losing 21 games. Twice both offenses had scored the same amount of points in the regular season.

thank you!

 

[GreenNGold_81]

LMAO, how many times must this be debunked? Apparently over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again.

I have shown the stats, yes you have to have a good offense but a good defense is also necessary.



In the name of all that is holy it is NOT an offensive league. It is quite simply a well balanced team league

This is a hindsight is 20/20 post. If the Rams win yesterday my point of favoring the offense is proven. No team had a top 5 defense, but each of the last four teams had a top offense. To make it to the conference finals GREAT offenses were necessary. To make a run at the superbowl the defenses had to rise to the occasion but the remaining defenses were not world beaters - though the Patriots were 7th in points scored on them, they were 20th in yards per game against them (and averaged 27 points per game against them by a top ten offense). The Rams, Saints and Chiefs (who were god awful) had statistically worse defenses. Both aspects of the game are obviously important, I agree, but the relative importance pivots towards the offense IMO.

 

[Ogsponge]

It was not hindsi

This is a hindsight is 20/20 post. If the Rams win yesterday my point of favoring the offense is proven. No team had a top 5 defense, but each of the last four teams had a top offense. To make it to the conference finals GREAT offenses were necessary. To make a run at the superbowl the defenses had to rise to the occasion but the remaining defenses were not world beaters - though the Patriots were 7th in points scored on them, they were 20th in yards per game against them (and averaged 27 points per game against them by a top ten offense). The Rams, Saints and Chiefs (who were god awful) had statistically worse defenses. Both aspects of the game are obviously important, I agree, but the relative importance pivots towards the offense IMO.

it was not hindsight at all, before the conference games when everyone was being all gushy about the offenses, I had a lengthy post showing the offensive and defense ranks of the past 10 super bowl winners. It showed exactly what my previous post to you stated. It requires a balanced team to win the Super Bowl 80% of the time and by balanced I mean top 10 in each.

Yes once in awhile a crappy regular season defense wins it all but it is rare. As far as you pointing out the yardage of the pats, it is a worthless stat, points allowed is all that matters. You don’t win games based on yardage, you win games based on points.

I respect your opinion and it is absolutely correct to an extent. But if you believe defense doesn’t matter in the “New NFL” then you would be wrong, it has always been equally important and always will be.

Do you remember the 2011 Packers? A team that i believe is still the fifth highest scoring offense of all time? Do you remember how bad the defense was? Do you remember how embarrassing the loss to the Giants was? Anyway as mentioned it is not ALL about the offense, it requires balance and that is fact not just opinion.

 

[OldSchool101]

It was not hindsi

it was not hindsight at all, before the conference games when everyone was being all gushy about the offenses, I had a lengthy post showing the offensive and defense ranks of the past 10 super bowl winners. It showed exactly what my previous post to you stated. It requires a balanced team to win the Super Bowl 80% of the time and by balanced I mean top 10 in each.

Yes once in awhile a crappy regular season defense wins it all but it is rare. As far as you pointing out the yardage of the pats, it is a worthless stat, points allowed is all that matters. You don’t win games based on yardage, you win games based on points.

I respect your opinion and it is absolutely correct to an extent. But if you believe defense doesn’t matter in the “New NFL” then you would be wrong, it has always been equally important and always will be.

Do you remember the 2011 Packers? A team that i believe is still the fifth highest scoring offense of all time? Do you remember how bad the defense was? Do you remember how embarrassing the loss to the Giants was? Anyway as mentioned it is not ALL about the offense, it requires balance and that is fact not just opinion.

Absolutely. The evidence firmly supports balance leaning Defense. It takes a balance but if you had to choose I’d take Defense merely because historically the better Defense wins at a higher % (66%) than the better Offense does. It’s roughly about a 10% differential in favor of Defenses in the SB.

It’s not a Myth that Defense win championships, however it could be argued that it also doesn’t necessarily tell the whole story. Offenses are a key ingredient in those wins.

 

[Mondio]

There wasn't a single thing that won it for the patriots. Yes they had a good defense, especially in that game. But their offense, even though it didn't score a ton of points, still did enough to get some yards, get some first downs, use some time and then their punter pinned them deep a few times. all of those things mattered. Had the Rams gotten the ball out near midfield more than once or twice, or had the Pats went 3 and out more giving the Rams more opportunity who knows what happens.

That Patriots win was a complete team win. Brady wasn't on fire, but he hit some big passes when they really needed them. J. Edelmen was great when he needed to be. They got some good production from the run game. Their punter was practically an MVP. How many did he drop practically on the goalline and have them stay in the field of play? 2?3? and the Defense didn't give up anything. Every run was stuffed practically outside of 2-3 in the 2nd half. Every pass was contested. Complete team win on Sunday.

 

[Sunshinepacker]

The defense is a mess but the offense needs some help to be elite. Bulaga cannot be counted on. So in a sense we need a RG and a RT.

I believe they need another RB as Jones is a 12-15 type carry back and has been injured both seasons so far. William's is universal and okay but would like to see him as the 3rd option. An upgrade here wouldn't hurt.

They need a slot receiver and possibly a TE.

If they add that to the offense we should be good.

The question was more so focused on whether the team should focus their efforts on fixing the offense or defense. By your response I assume you think the offense needs more help?

 

[brandon2348]

The question was more so focused on whether the team should focus their efforts on fixing the offense or defense. By your response I assume you think the offense needs more help?

My response has been stated several times. I believe there are many areas that need help both offensive and defense. I also believe that the chance of us building an elite defense by the end of Rodgers tenure is next to zero. What I am completely against is drafting and developing defense on a massive scale which has failed us miserably. I would like to see the Packers going the free agency route to fill holes with developed players keeping the Packers defense competitive.

On offense I would like to see a shift in direction by using our top picks to get stout OL and RB's that can come in a contribute immediately and produce. This year I believe they need to add a difference maker in the slot as well.

I believe the Packers and mostly Thompson have gone with a backwards approach building the roster.

 

[Ogsponge]

The question was more so focused on whether the team should focus their efforts on fixing the offense or defense. By your response I assume you think the offense needs more help?

I personally think having a coach that isn’t stuck in 2010 will be of way more help than people realize...

I hope

 

[Mondio]

I personally think having a coach that isn’t stuck in 2010 will be of way more help than people realize...

I hope

I think it will look more crisp just from reconnecting with all the players. I know everyone is about plays, I'm not so much. They do matter, but so does execution and even last year, just looking at that last Bears game. there were 3 TD's left on the field if the throw is better or the catch is made. Just execution. No matter what we run, we have to run the ball effectively and throw and catch well. eventually there is a defense for every offense and it comes down to winning the battles.

These past 2 seasons have been rough, and last year it seemed this team lacked focus and discipline more than anything to me. I think just the mere fact of learning a new playbook could bring that focus back and will. But as things progress, it will still come down to keeping that focus and discipline that this team lacked last year.

 

[brandon2348]

I think it will look more crisp just from reconnecting with all the players. I know everyone is about plays, I'm not so much. They do matter, but so does execution and even last year, just looking at that last Bears game. there were 3 TD's left on the field if the throw is better or the catch is made. Just execution. No matter what we run, we have to run the ball effectively and throw and catch well. eventually there is a defense for every offense and it comes down to winning the battles.

These past 2 seasons have been rough, and last year it seemed this team lacked focus and discipline more than anything to me. I think just the mere fact of learning a new playbook could bring that focus back and will. But as things progress, it will still come down to keeping that focus and discipline that this team lacked last year.

They lacked discipline which is a stem from "coaching" but this team has flat out lacked the "talent" to make it work for years. This whole show has been Aaron Rodgers playing at such a high level to cover up deficiancies and pull out wins. All the sudden Rodgers can't play at Super Man level and we have nothing left and nowhere to turn. We're constantly one critical injury away from disaster.

For example, we actually have people that think G-Mo is a legitimate weapon when in reality he is nothing more then a no.4 receiver. Our entire evaluation of talent is off and until they get that right were gonna continue to be stuck in the mud and it will only get worse.

Getting a new coach and scheme to make our "marginal talent" work will only get us so far. It's not like were bringing Bill Belichick in to coach.

 

[PackAttack12]

I think it will look more crisp just from reconnecting with all the players. I know everyone is about plays, I'm not so much. They do matter, but so does execution and even last year, just looking at that last Bears game. there were 3 TD's left on the field if the throw is better or the catch is made. Just execution. No matter what we run, we have to run the ball effectively and throw and catch well. eventually there is a defense for every offense and it comes down to winning the battles.

These past 2 seasons have been rough, and last year it seemed this team lacked focus and discipline more than anything to me. I think just the mere fact of learning a new playbook could bring that focus back and will. But as things progress, it will still come down to keeping that focus and discipline that this team lacked last year.

The scheme was predicated on guys winning their 1 on 1 battles, and Rodgers being able to thread the needle on tight window throws. You're right that the execution was lacking this year, but part of it is not having multiple above average route runners (Nelson, Cobb, Jennings, Driver, etc.), and Rodgers being limited through injuries, along with not playing up to his all time great standards. That makes it difficult to consistently produce with McCarthy's philosophy.

What the new scheme will do is make it easier to execute. Not everything is going to be predicated on man beater routes. Not everything is going to be predicted on Rodgers routinely having to put the ball in a 6 inch window.

What also hurt the Packers just as bad as anything else was the predictability of what we were trying to do. The days of teams being fooled or intimidated by what we were going to do had long passed.

LaFleur is going to make this squad considerably more dynamic almost overnight.