Packers' defensive line looks to rise to another level

[gopkrs]

So, playing against the nations top team, surrounded by little talent, and playing a new position, he didnt look good? I see every play the offensive line doing whatever they want. It makes playing ILB difficult when your OL are coming at you and the RB has 5 holes to choose from.

Try watching this:

You must be logged in to see this image or video!

You must be logged in to see this image or video!

This clip should not define him just as the Alabama game should not be the only evidence. In this clip I see a player with amazing quickness and strength and playing aggressively.

The talking heads talk of a player with great instincts. I dont see it in the bama tape, but it must be evident in other tapes or they wouldn't be saying it. I know that his amazing combine performance resulted in scouts and talking heads going back to the tapes (all of them) and they came away impressed.

Yes, he looks very athletic. Anxious to see him play.

 

[AmishMafia]

Yes, he looks very athletic. Anxious to see him play.

I actually didnt like the pick - but usually those were the TT picks that did the best. I just think it silly that people look at 2 or 3 games and boldly declare the player has no chance to become a player. I am always the optimist and think he could become a player for us. I just think it will take at least 3 years for him to develop.

 

[Half Empty]

So, just in time for his contract year?

 

[HardRightEdge]

Overly simplified, the 46 base brought down the SS into the box, ie, the 8-man box.

It's one of the few parts of the 46 that got absorbed into modern defenses across the board.

Back in those days teams were not throwing the ball 600 times per season; it was a run/pass balanced league or more like run-first in many cases. 8 men in the box today is by no means common; more often than not it's a couple of corners or a corner and safety playing press coverage against a couple of slot receivers. That's quite a bit different than a true 8 in the box with the 46 with 4 down linemen, 3 linebackers and a safety. Today, if you see a true 8 up formation without corners it's a sell out on the run in short yardage.

 

[HardRightEdge]

I actually didnt like the pick - but usually those were the TT picks that did the best. I just think it silly that people look at 2 or 3 games and boldly declare the player has no chance to become a player.

Burks can become a player. But when you see a guy that uniquely clueless against the run, even if it's one game, you know he has a long way to go to be other than a coverage guy which he generally looked good doing. If he looked better in other games I'd consider the level of that competition.

Frankly, just as Randall always looked like a free safety to me, Burks looks more like a strong safety, not an ILB who must be able to play the run to be other than rotational, at least for this season anyway.

 

[Sunshinepacker]

Matthews isn't explosive enough to play weak side linebacker in a 4-3. While it's true most linebackers struggle to cover elite tight ends and receiving backs he wouldn't be able to keep up with average ones.

Perry was definitely a better fit for a 4-3 coming out of college but after losing weight during his stint with the Packers currently is best suited to line up at outside linebacker in a 3-4.

I'll disagree on Matthews, as I said he wouldn't be great at weak side but he could be average. As for Perry, he might be small enough now but most players (and people) get heavier as they age. Rather than constantly fighting to stay at a lower-weight and be nimble enough to play OLB, having him at DE would allow him to play to his natural size a little more.

 

[mradtke66]

I said he wouldn't be great at weak side but he could be average.

The problem with that is that his job as a 3-4 OLB would translate better to 4-3 SOLB, not WOLB.

If anything, his time at ILB should worry you about playing him off the ball at all. The two ILBs in a 3-4 more closely translate to MLB an WLB in most 4-3s. In other words, we tried that, he's bad at it.

 

[Mondio]

I'll disagree on Matthews, as I said he wouldn't be great at weak side but he could be average. As for Perry, he might be small enough now but most players (and people) get heavier as they age. Rather than constantly fighting to stay at a lower-weight and be nimble enough to play OLB, having him at DE would allow him to play to his natural size a little more.

I think Perry would probably be more healthy at a lighter weight. I think keeping all that weight and strength comes with a cost in how it affects his body to attain and maintain that size. I don't believe he would have been better at a 4-3 DE, I think he would have just been injured more and I don't believe heavier is more "natural" for him.

 

[Passepartout]

Yeah as really when you have a lighter person in the 3-4 defense. It works and you are right Mondio. Right on in maintaining his body and size.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

I'll disagree on Matthews, as I said he wouldn't be great at weak side but he could be average.

I don't believe Matthews would even perform at an average level as a weak side linebacker in a 4-3.

 

[Curly Calhoun]

I don't believe Matthews would even perform at an average level as a weak side linebacker in a 4-3.

Hard to say at this stage in his career; Age and injuries have taken a toll. He's become, IMHO, the Packer equivalent of Ryan Braun - Being well-paid for past accomplishments, but with a noticeable dip in production. Still, like Braun, he has his moments...….

OLB is a position that Green Bay needs to get younger and more talented at. There was so much to address this off-season (and it appears much was), that something wasn't going to get done - Addressing this need will have to wait another year. The Pack will have to compensate elsewhere.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Hard to say at this stage in his career; Age and injuries have taken a toll. He's become, IMHO, the Packer equivalent of Ryan Braun - Being well-paid for past accomplishments, but with a noticeable dip in production. Still, like Braun, he has his moments...….

I don't think Matthews ever had the ability to be a fit as a weak side linebacker in a 4-3. I still expect him to contribute as an edge rusher though although there's no doubt he's currently overpaid.

OLB is a position that Green Bay needs to get younger and more talented at. There was so much to address this off-season (and it appears much was), that something wasn't going to get done - Addressing this need will have to wait another year. The Pack will have to compensate elsewhere.

The Packers either need Gilbert or Biegel to perform at a decent level or add another veteran to provide some pass rush from the edge. Hopefully Gutekunst isn't on board with continuing Thompson's waiting for next year's draft approach.

 

[Sunshinepacker]

The problem with that is that his job as a 3-4 OLB would translate better to 4-3 SOLB, not WOLB.

If anything, his time at ILB should worry you about playing him off the ball at all. The two ILBs in a 3-4 more closely translate to MLB an WLB in most 4-3s. In other words, we tried that, he's bad at it.

I agree. I think people are misconstruing what I'm saying. I never said Matthews would be a GOOD weak-side linebacker. In fact, he would make a better SAM. However, the Packers don't have another guy on the roster that could play weak-side 4-3 LB even passably, so Matthews would be forced to play there. He would certainly have weaknesses. However, there are elements of the job he would be very good at as well. At no point have i said, nor intended to imply, that Matthews would be anything more than an average weak-side linebacker with certain strengths and certain weaknesses.

 

[Sunshinepacker]

I don't believe Matthews would even perform at an average level as a weak side linebacker in a 4-3.

He would be excellent against the run, excellent blitzing the passer, and weak against the pass. You find a guy that is excellent in all three of those areas and that guy is elite. Two out of three is actually pretty darn good, unfortunately one of those three is more important and that's the one he would struggle in, hence why I say he might be average.

 

[Sunshinepacker]

I think Perry would probably be more healthy at a lighter weight. I think keeping all that weight and strength comes with a cost in how it affects his body to attain and maintain that size. I don't believe he would have been better at a 4-3 DE, I think he would have just been injured more and I don't believe heavier is more "natural" for him.

Yes, if he is still playing OLB then lighter is better. However, I think he'd be at his healthiest if he was heavier, at a more natural weight, and not being asked to play in space and could simply play DE (and for that's what we're talking about for the purposes of this hypothetical). And yes, heavier for him would certainly appear more natural. As people age they tend to get heavier. As guys play in the NFL and work on their bodies more, they tend to get heavier. Perry was 270lbs coming out of college. You don't see many guys that are 6'3", 270lbs that are currently playing 5lbs lighter after six years in the NFL...I wish I didn't have to follow this but some "gotcha" guy will point out the irrelevant point that obviously overweight players lose weight, so I'll make the ridiculously obvious disclaimer that I'm not referring to those players and Perry was not one of those players coming out of college.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

I agree. I think people are misconstruing what I'm saying. I never said Matthews would be a GOOD weak-side linebacker. In fact, he would make a better SAM. However, the Packers don't have another guy on the roster that could play weak-side 4-3 LB even passably, so Matthews would be forced to play there. He would certainly have weaknesses. However, there are elements of the job he would be very good at as well. At no point have i said, nor intended to imply, that Matthews would be anything more than an average weak-side linebacker with certain strengths and certain weaknesses.

Josh Jones and Oren Burks have the athleticism necessary to play weak side linebacker in a 4-3, Matthews doesn't. It would be a waste of his pass rushing talents to have Clay line up as the SAM.

He would be excellent against the run, excellent blitzing the passer, and weak against the pass. You find a guy that is excellent in all three of those areas and that guy is elite. Two out of three is actually pretty darn good, unfortunately one of those three is more important and that's the one he would struggle in, hence why I say he might be average.

I'm not convinced Matthews would excel defending the run as a WILL linebacker in a 4-3. Clay not being explosive enough to cover opposing running backs or slot receivers make it a terrible idea to use him in that position.

 

[mradtke66]

He would be excellent against the run, excellent blitzing the passer, and weak against the pass. You find a guy that is excellent in all three of those areas and that guy is elite. Two out of three is actually pretty darn good, unfortunately one of those three is more important and that's the one he would struggle in, hence why I say he might be average.

Problem with that is what Matthews is good at vs. what is required for a WILL is backwards.

A WILL is typically the most coverage-centric linebacker. He's also the clean-up run defender, the flow-to-the-ball defender. He seldom takes on blocks.

And because of the job description, he tends to be the lightest and fastest. Matthews isn't either.

If I was forced to play a 4-3 tomorrow with our roster and not shuffle guys, Matthews would be the SAM, Ryan the MIKE, and Martinez the WILL. Depending on how they'd perform, Burks and Jones would be the primary replacement candidates to be the WILL. If that happened, I'd kick Martinez in to MIKE.

 

[HardRightEdge]

As for Perry, he might be small enough now but most players (and people) get heavier as they age. Rather than constantly fighting to stay at a lower-weight and be nimble enough to play OLB, having him at DE would allow him to play to his natural size a little more.

As the story goes, Perry bulked up about 10 lbs. to 271 for the Combine, an evident attempt to attract interest from teams looking for a 4-3 DE. He said that was his preference. Has he dropped weight since then? It's not evident; he still looks big. Standing side-by-side with Matthews, for example, the difference is evident. Where is he at now? Probably 265 give or take.

Every draft analysis season there are a wide range of guys in roughly the 250-275 range where best fit is debated: 3-4 edge, 4-3 edge, 4-3 OLB, strong side vs. weak side. Best fit comes down to other factors...how the metrics dovetail with play style.

So what's Perry? He looks to me like a guy who can play up or hand in the dirt at this juncture even if it took a couple of years to adjust to upright play, He has an underestimated burst from the upright position. It's curious that only a couple of times per year we see the A-1 dip and rip and inside swim moves are equally infrequent. I think the common perception is that he's primarily a bull rusher.

It is my perception, observing the Capers defense and how edge players played in it over the years, conservative play off the edge was being coached. Don't dip, keep the head up to see the pocket protection develop, keep a wide swing for pocket contain, do not circle behind the pocket. When the QB steps up or moves laterally, which the OT can't see, then use leverage to the inside shoulder and get there before the ball is away. You rarely see these guys take an inside line except when there's a DB blitz off the edge, and that effect is a bull rush to occupy the OT to give the DB a free run.

The word "conservative" is worth repeating. It was also a function of Capers preference for man D, where the coverage guys have their focus on the receiver ("backs to the play" as the phrase goes). Pocket contain off the edge is intended to prevent the QB getting a free run or rollout, though this approach never worked against Kaepernick who had a habit of gashing the middle anyway. Capers wouldn't even change it up and release the hounds against slower or less mobile QBs.

On the one hand, freelancing edge moves entails risk of QB free run or rollout play extension. On the other hand you're not maximizing athletic skills or the residual benefits of executing an unexpected disruptive play. The edge player is left to rely heavily on awareness and hand work. As for the latter, having these players on the field wearing clubs repeatedly and for extended periods is highly neutralizing factor in this style of play.

Pettine promises more aggressiveness. Will that translate to liberating more creativity off the edge? I'd hope so. Perry and Matthews are certainly capable of it. Even Biegel has a signature spin move that Capers may have been disuading as it takes eyes off the QB. A second try at adding speed at the ILB coverage position goes beyond simply limiting separation on routes; it adds pursuit speed when the QB leaves the pocket. And if Jones can seal the SS job and Burks at coverage ILB, there's meaningfully enhanced speed in the middle of the field to contain the inevitable moments of damage when playing aggressively up front.

 

[Curly Calhoun]

I don't think Matthews ever had the ability to be a fit as a weak side linebacker in a 4-3. I still expect him to contribute as an edge rusher though although there's no doubt he's currently overpaid.



The Packers either need Gilbert or Biegel to perform at a decent level or add another veteran to provide some pass rush from the edge. Hopefully Gutekunst isn't on board with continuing Thompson's waiting for next year's draft approach.

Matthews was pretty good in his younger days, so I personally would hesitate to put limitations on what he was capable of back then. Of course, we'll never know for sure.

As for Gilbert/Biegel, I'm hopeful one or both will be able to contribute significantly to the defense this year, but no one is going to confuse them with Von Miller or Khalil Mack (or even a young Clay Matthews). I'm confident Pettine will put them in position to have success, and we'll see how it goes from there.

Stud pass rushers were in short supply this off-season, adding one or two next year will likely be a priority.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

If I was forced to play a 4-3 tomorrow with our roster and not shuffle guys, Matthews would be the SAM, Ryan the MIKE, and Martinez the WILL. .

While I agree that Matthews would be best suited as the SAM linebacker in a 4-3 he's not a great fit by any means and it takes away his best trait which is rushing the passer on the majority of snaps.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

As for Gilbert/Biegel, I'm hopeful one or both will be able to contribute significantly to the defense this year, but no one is going to confuse them with Von Miller or Khalil Mack (or even a young Clay Matthews). I'm confident Pettine will put them in position to have success, and we'll see how it goes from there.

Stud pass rushers were in short supply this off-season, adding one or two next year will likely be a priority.

Gilbert and Biegel don't need to perform at an elite level but have some impact coming off the bench. It's true there weren't a lot of decent edge rushers available in free agency this offseason but Robert Ayers, who is still on the market, might present an intriguing option.

 

[Curly Calhoun]

Gilbert and Biegel don't need to perform at an elite level but have some impact coming off the bench. It's true there weren't a lot of decent edge rushers available in free agency this offseason but Robert Ayers, who is still on the market, might present an intriguing option.

Ayers: Maybe, on a Wilkerson-type of 1-year deal.

2015: 9 sacks.
2016: 6.5 sacks.
2017: 2 sacks.

Disturbing trend.

 

[mradtke66]

While I agree that Matthews would be best suited as the SAM linebacker in a 4-3 he's not a great fit by any means and it takes away his best trait which is rushing the passer on the majority of snaps.

You and I are in agreement. Key word from my post "Forced."

The best way to use him in a 4-3 would be base SOLB, nickel/dime edge rusher--which is more or less exactly how we used him last year.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Ayers: Maybe, on a Wilkerson-type of 1-year deal.

2015: 9 sacks.
2016: 6.5 sacks.
2017: 2 sacks.

Disturbing trend.

While Ayers' number of sacks was down last season he had an impressive 17 quarterback hits and a total of 45 pressures in 2017. In my opinion he would definitely be worth a look for a reasonable contract.

 

[Sunshinepacker]

As the story goes, Perry bulked up about 10 lbs. to 271 for the Combine, an evident attempt to attract interest from teams looking for a 4-3 DE. He said that was his preference. Has he dropped weight since then? It's not evident; he still looks big. Standing side-by-side with Matthews, for example, the difference is evident. Where is he at now? Probably 265 give or take.

Every draft analysis season there are a wide range of guys in roughly the 250-275 range where best fit is debated: 3-4 edge, 4-3 edge, 4-3 OLB, strong side vs. weak side. Best fit comes down to other factors...how the metrics dovetail with play style.

So what's Perry? He looks to me like a guy who can play up or hand in the dirt at this juncture even if it took a couple of years to adjust to upright play, He has an underestimated burst from the upright position. It's curious that only a couple of times per year we see the A-1 dip and rip and inside swim moves are equally infrequent. I think the common perception is that he's primarily a bull rusher.

It is my perception, observing the Capers defense and how edge players played in it over the years, conservative play off the edge was being coached. Don't dip, keep the head up to see the pocket protection develop, keep a wide swing for pocket contain, do not circle behind the pocket. When the QB steps up or moves laterally, which the OT can't see, then use leverage to the inside shoulder and get there before the ball is away. You rarely see these guys take an inside line except when there's a DB blitz off the edge, and that effect is a bull rush to occupy the OT to give the DB a free run.

The word "conservative" is worth repeating. It was also a function of Capers preference for man D, where the coverage guys have their focus on the receiver ("backs to the play" as the phrase goes). Pocket contain off the edge is intended to prevent the QB getting a free run or rollout, though this approach never worked against Kaepernick who had a habit of gashing the middle anyway. Capers wouldn't even change it up and release the hounds against slower or less mobile QBs.

On the one hand, freelancing edge moves entails risk of QB free run or rollout play extension. On the other hand you're not maximizing athletic skills or the residual benefits of executing an unexpected disruptive play. The edge player is left to rely heavily on awareness and hand work. As for the latter, having these players on the field wearing clubs repeatedly and for extended periods is highly neutralizing factor in this style of play.

Pettine promises more aggressiveness. Will that translate to liberating more creativity off the edge? I'd hope so. Perry and Matthews are certainly capable of it. Even Biegel has a signature spin move that Capers may have been disuading as it takes eyes off the QB. A second try at adding speed at the ILB coverage position goes beyond simply limiting separation on routes; it adds pursuit speed when the QB leaves the pocket. And if Jones can seal the SS job and Burks at coverage ILB, there's meaningfully enhanced speed in the middle of the field to contain the inevitable moments of damage when playing aggressively up front.

I think being forced to play Walden at OLB for so many year mentally scarred Capers and it affected the level of freedom he was willing to give future OLBs.