Offensive Talent

[tynimiller]

I'll admit Adams wasn't the receiver he is now right out the gate his first few seasons. If MVS ever polishes his route running and doesn't rely solely upon his true 4.3 speed, he truly could be the bonafide option to compliment Adams...which I think everyone had hope Gmo would be.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

I'm aware. But we are talking about complimentary weapons. Adams cannot be a one man WR corps.

Agree and when the other 5 WR's are made up of a 5th rounder and 4 UDFA's, what else should we really expect? Throw on top of that none of the 5 are really all that experienced and you probably are going to have a hopeful group of "meh".

Nobody needs to point out to me what Donald Driver, a 7th rd. pick did as a Packer, because so far, none of those 5 guys look like Donald Driver. Nor do you have to point out that it takes more time for late round and UDFA's to develop. That is fine when they are doing that as your #5 and #6 WR behind a more experienced group, but not as your #2-4.
Someone needs to point out the last Packer WR (besides Driver) that amounted to anything that was obtained after the 3rd round (James Jones, Antonio Freeman, Robert Brooks were all 3rd Rounders), because I went back 30+ years and couldn't find any.

I know a lot of posters wanted the Packers to use a high draft pick on a WR this year, but I still think this was one area that needed to be addressed via Free Agency and with a well known commodity. Not to pick on TT too much, but this seems more like a strategy that he would employ, not one Gute would endorse. Maybe a pitfall when you have a FHOF QB, thinking that he can make Champagne out of beer?

 

[Dantés]

Agree and when the other 5 WR's are made up of a 5th rounder and 4 UDFA's, what else should we really expect? Throw on top of that none of the 5 are really all that experienced and you probably are going to have a hopeful group of "meh".

Nobody needs to point out to me what Donald Driver, a 7th rd. pick did as a Packer, because so far, none of those 5 guys look like Donald Driver. Nor do you have to point out that it takes more time for late round and UDFA's to develop. That is fine when they are doing that as your #5 and #6 WR behind a more experienced group, but not as your #2-4.
Someone needs to point out the last Packer WR (besides Driver) that amounted to anything that was obtained after the 3rd round (James Jones, Antonio Freeman, Robert Brooks were all 3rd Rounders), because I went back 30+ years and couldn't find any.

I know a lot of posters wanted the Packers to use a high draft pick on a WR this year, but I still think this was one area that needed to be addressed via Free Agency and with a well known commodity. Not to pick on TT too much, but this seems more like a strategy that he would employ, not one Gute would endorse. Maybe a pitfall when you have a FHOF QB, thinking that he can make Champagne out of beer?

I have not been a huge Allison fan, but he has been a lot more productive than this in the past. I am surprised at how minimally he has factored. And I still persist that this issue is as least equal parts system and personnel. Things are not clicking yet.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

I have not been a huge Allison fan, but he has been a lot more productive than this in the past. I am surprised at how minimally he has factored. And I still persist that this issue is as least equal parts system and personnel. Things are not clicking yet.

Agreed and I can sort of understand the hope that the Packers put in both Allison and MVS, perhaps the potential is there for both of them. However, that potential was garnered mostly as #3 and #4 targets, playing alongside much better options, who were being covered by the defenses top DB's. Not so sure either of them are going to thrive just yet as the Packers #2 or even #3 WR. Meanwhile, there is a large void between Adams and the rest of the group, making it critical to the offense that all these other guys play at their highest level, we just have not seen that yet. Like most of our "hopeful WR's" in the past, we see glimpses of it at times, but their inconsistent play and lack of high end talent, is why these guys were available in the 5th round or as UDFA's.

There are going to be a number of media people and posters who want to blame this on MLF and Rodgers, but I still go back to the fact that our WR group is way too inexperienced and undeveloped and I blame Gute for that. I hope I am wrong.

 

[greengold]

I culled some names of players that I would consider to fall into this #2 WR category. Don’t know availability, but maybe others do here?

Possible #2 WRs in Trade:

Donte Moncrief

Tyrell Williams

John Brown

Golden Tate

Nelson Agholor

Tyler Boyd

Josh Doctson

Jarius Wright

Emmanuel Sanders

Sterling Shepherd

Laquon Treadwell

Michael Crabtree

Pierre Garçon

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

i dont' care what their skill set is, there were 3-4 drive extending catches that weren't yesterday. that hurts. 3 more catches turns into 9 plays or more pretty quickly. It changes field position, scoring opportunities, rest for defense, builds a rhythm on offense etc. It's the same as last year, sure the offense isn't looking great, but making the plays there to be made sure helps. There was a period where it seemed the defense knew exactly the play being run, that was ugly.

Fully agree and the only way to fix that is for players to step up and play better. I am not very confident that our WR group is capable of doing that fully. Allison is a good example of what you get out of an UDFA WR, a guy that flashes some skills on occasion, but at the end of the day, he makes enough mistakes to wash out the good.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

I culled some names of players that I would consider to fall into this #2 WR category. Don’t know availability, but maybe others do here?

Possible #2 WRs in Trade:

Donte Moncrief

Tyrell Williams

John Brown

Golden Tate

Nelson Agholor

Tyler Boyd

Josh Doctson

Jarius Wright

Emmanuel Sanders

Sterling Shepherd

Laquon Treadwell

Michael Crabtree

Pierre Garçon

I like the way you are thinking, because it was my next project. While I have been screaming about the need for a better ILB, I would say WR is equally, if not more important to get fixed now, while you still can. This team is 3-0 and could very easily be 0-3 if it wasn't for a vastly improved Defense. Now is the time to do what Gute should have done last Winter, find a #2 WR that Aaron can rely on and one that makes defenses think twice about putting all their focus on Adams. Right now, if I am another teams DC, the only receiver of the Packers I am concerned about is #17.

 

[PackerDNA]

If the offense continues to struggle for the next game or two, I'd be on the alert for a trade for a wide receiver.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

If the offense continues to struggle for the next game or two, I'd be on the alert for a trade for a wide receiver.

I hope that Gute is already on the alert and starting to form a list, as well as contact teams that are heading towards a non-playoff season.

You and some other posters are correct though, it might be a few more games before teams are willing to see this season for what it is and start thinking about building for 2020 by trading away a quality WR. Jordan Matthews is about the only current street FA that might be a slight upgrade. He had a tryout last week with the Vikings, but not so sure he would be the answer for the Packers and if they are going to make a move, probably best to make one for an impact player.

 

[Dantés]

Agreed and I can sort of understand the hope that the Packers put in both Allison and MVS, perhaps the potential is there for both of them. However, that potential was garnered mostly as #3 and #4 targets, playing alongside much better options, who were being covered by the defenses top DB's. Not so sure either of them are going to thrive just yet as the Packers #2 or even #3 WR. Meanwhile, there is a large void between Adams and the rest of the group, making it critical to the offense that all these other guys play at their highest level, we just have not seen that yet. Like most of our "hopeful WR's" in the past, we see glimpses of it at times, but their inconsistent play and lack of high end talent, is why these guys were available in the 5th round or as UDFA's.

There are going to be a number of media people and posters who want to blame this on MLF and Rodgers, but I still go back to the fact that our WR group is way too inexperienced and undeveloped and I blame Gute for that. I hope I am wrong.

I think MVS is basically doing what he's supposed to be doing.

 

[Sunshinepacker]

the Chargers LOST, the Packers won.

i'll take 5 targets and win any day.

Jones had 10 rushes for 19 yards. Want more touches? gain more yards. No idea how he got that TD, he squirted right thru, great run, but you have to do more with the opportunities

Williams on the other hand had 1 more rushing attempt for almost 60 and 1 more passing attempt for 23 more yards in the passing game.

Sorry, i prefer to allow the better player to have the ball (small sample size aside). And please, don't play the result. The Broncos are BAD. Just because the Packers won the game doesn't mean there can't be any criticism of the gameplan.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

I think MVS is basically doing what he's supposed to be doing.

We are getting exactly what I would hope for out of a 5th rounder when it comes to MVS. Yesterday, he had a nice outing, but will we see that again on Thursday night or will it be a few more games?

I know I am probably being too critical on a second year player and my criticism is more on the group as a whole. MVS would and could be better, if the Packers had another WR that was starting caliber (besides Adams of course). I look around the league and see the WR groups that some teams have and just shake my head, wondering how the Packers let their roster get to where it is today.

 

[Sunshinepacker]

We are getting exactly what I would hope for out of a 5th rounder when it comes to MVS. Yesterday, he had a nice outing, but will we see that again on Thursday night or will it be a few more games?

I know I am probably being too critical on a second year player and my criticism is more on the group as a whole. MVS would and could be better, if the Packers had another WR that was starting caliber (besides Adams of course). I look around the league and see the WR groups that some teams have and just shake my head, wondering how the Packers let their roster get to where it is today.

I actually like the potential of MVS; yes, he's a 5th round pick but athletically he's VERY impressive and he's learning the game. The fact that Rodgers trusts him is a HUGE plus as well. He's a second year player. Let's remember it takes about 3 years for receivers to get a grasp of the NFL, unless you're talking about some kind of truly rare athleticism (I mean, people were calling Adams a bust after two years).

 

[greengold]

I think MVS is basically doing what he's supposed to be doing.

Totally agree. I looked at his stats yesterday and my first thought was, “looks like #2 WR numbers to me!”

I posted that list reluctantly, as I have been asking people riding this “We need a #2!” wave, “who...?” No real answers, so I thought I’d look some up myself.

Seems we are just fine and we should get better and better with our other receivers as the O comes together, but I guess it doesn’t hurt to look. Personally, I can’t say I’d be disappointed if we traded for Sanders, or Tate, or Agholor...

All I know is after our Week 6 game, if this is an issue, Gutes will have a full week or more to complete a trade before the deadline.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

I actually like the potential of MVS; yes, he's a 5th round pick but athletically he's VERY impressive and he's learning the game. The fact that Rodgers trusts him is a HUGE plus as well. He's a second year player. Let's remember it takes about 3 years for receivers to get a grasp of the NFL, unless you're talking about some kind of truly rare athleticism (I mean, people were calling Adams a bust after two years).

Maybe I am not explaining my point clearly. I agree with you, MVS could very well be a FHOF WR, as could any of the other 4/5 guys not named Adams. My point is, we went into 2019 having to rely on these guys stepping up NOW. When the season started, which WR's of the group were you comfortable saying, this guy is the real deal and will be solid this season? Not, "Oh he has the potential to be really good some day." Those are the guys you roll with as your #3 or #4. Adams was not relied upon as a #2 or even a #3 his first few years.

So yes, there could be some talented guys playing WR in Green Bay, the only problem is, we need that talent now.

 

[Mondio]

Sorry, i prefer to allow the better player to have the ball (small sample size aside). And please, don't play the result. The Broncos are BAD. Just because the Packers won the game doesn't mean there can't be any criticism of the gameplan.

Jones is explosive, but you watched yesterday yes? Who was the more productive back running and catching? Their sample sizes were almost equal. Sometimes a guy has a better day than the other and I thought Williams was that guy. Doesn't mean he's always that guy, but I thought it was obvious why he got his opportunities yesterday and he deserved every single one of them.

 

[Mondio]

Maybe I am not explaining my point clearly. I agree with you, MVS could very well be a FHOF WR, as could any of the other 4/5 guys not named Adams. My point is, we went into 2019 having to rely on these guys stepping up NOW. When the season started, which WR's of the group were you comfortable saying, this guy is the real deal and will be solid this season? Not, "Oh he has the potential to be really good some day." Those are the guys you roll with as your #3 or #4. Adams was not relied upon as a #2 or even a #3 his first few years.

So yes, there could be some talented guys playing WR in Green Bay, the only problem is, we need that talent now.

but we needed lots of other talent in other places too. with all the other moves being made, i'm ok with giving the young guys time and hope they step into that role sooner than later.

There are lots of moving parts of offense and a new receiver, even if proven and talented is just adding another moving part to the equation. New coach, new scheme, and new faces. They have to see what they have. maybe it's not enough, but they have to see.

In a perfect world i would have liked to see someone added, but considering circumstances i'm ok with seeing what we have and adjusting accordingly. There still may be time to trade for what they determine they need once the offense starts coming together, or at least have some good options in what they consider a strong offensive draft next year.

But there is some wisdom in waiting to spend when you have a better idea of what you really have and what you really need.

 

[Sunshinepacker]

Jones is explosive, but you watched yesterday yes? Who was the more productive back running and catching? Their sample sizes were almost equal. Sometimes a guy has a better day than the other and I thought Williams was that guy. Doesn't mean he's always that guy, but I thought it was obvious why he got his opportunities yesterday and he deserved every single one of them.

The sample sizes are certainly equal, and over the entirety of their careers Jones has been, by FAR, the better running back. Williams is a decent back that doesn't threaten the defense. His longest run, in his career, is 25 yards. The guy doesn't scare defenses. No defensive coordinator is worried about Williams in the backfield, because if somebody misses a tackle, he's getting 12 yards (his long run against the Broncos). Aaron Jones scares defensive coordinators because if someone misses a tackle then he's going to get far more than 12 yards; and Jones is also far more likely to force a missed tackle.

See, you can look at a sample size of 10 carries vs 12 carries and say that Williams was better, and he was yesterday, but that's ignoring the fact that you didn't give the better player the ball. I'm not going to look at the Broncos game and say, "MVS had more targets and yards than Adams therefore it was the correct decision to target him more often in the passing game."

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

But there is some wisdom in waiting to spend when you have a better idea of what you really have and what you really need.

There is also wisdom to knowing what you have and not rely too heavily on hopes. Of course I hope that the Packer WR group and #12 come together and start lighting it up more than we have seen. If this team were 0-3 and the Defense was like defenses of the past, I really wouldn't be that concerned and look at this as a good year to get a lot of playing time and experience for the young WR's. However, we are 3-0 and IMO, are only a few players (WR and ILB), as well as staying healthy, away from actually being a legit top contender.

Not to put any blame on AR, but you can already see the frustration on his face when it comes to this offense. But yes, you are right, we have to play with the hand we dealt ourselves and hope the young guys improve. However, if an opportunity arises to improve our roster, I hope that Gute takes it.

 

[PackAttack12]

I look around the league and see the WR groups that some teams have and just shake my head, wondering how the Packers let their roster get to where it is today.

I'm not absolving Gutekunst for not finding another solid receiver in the offseason, but in my opinion he came aboard knowing that the defense had to be priority #1 to fix, especially given that we hired Pettine and he needed better pieces to run his system.

Now that Gute has seemingly turned the Packers defense into at the very least a respectable unit (with the potential to be great), I think his focus will turn more toward the offensive side of the ball to get Rodgers more help.

Sorry, i prefer to allow the better player to have the ball (small sample size aside). And please, don't play the result. The Broncos are BAD. Just because the Packers won the game doesn't mean there can't be any criticism of the gameplan.

You can disagree with this if you wish, or you can say that it's foolish, but in my uneducated opinion, I think part of the rationale of splitting carries like that against the Broncos was knowing that Philly is coming on Thursday Night. If you could get the production by splitting carries, not overworking one certain back will definitely bode well against the Eagles.

I could be way off base, but I would imagine that it was at least a part of the logic.

 

[Sunshinepacker]

You can disagree with this if you wish, or you can say that it's foolish, but in my uneducated opinion, I think part of the rationale of splitting carries like that against the Broncos was knowing that Philly is coming on Thursday Night. If you could get the production by splitting carries, not overworking one certain back will definitely bode well against the Eagles.

I could be way off base, but I would imagine that it was at least a part of the logic.

I would understand this if not for MLF's recent comment about splitting the work. Please, don't misunderstand, I LIKE Williams, I think he's a good backup who can occasionally spell Jones, but he's just not the player that Jones is. I don't recall the exact numbers but the likelihood of the offense scoring goes up TREMENDOUSLY when the offense gets a 20+ yard play; Jones gives you that chance, Williams, not so much.

 

[Mondio]

The sample sizes are certainly equal, and over the entirety of their careers Jones has been, by FAR, the better running back. Williams is a decent back that doesn't threaten the defense. His longest run, in his career, is 25 yards. The guy doesn't scare defenses. No defensive coordinator is worried about Williams in the backfield, because if somebody misses a tackle, he's getting 12 yards (his long run against the Broncos). Aaron Jones scares defensive coordinators because if someone misses a tackle then he's going to get far more than 12 yards; and Jones is also far more likely to force a missed tackle.

See, you can look at a sample size of 10 carries vs 12 carries and say that Williams was better, and he was yesterday, but that's ignoring the fact that you didn't give the better player the ball. I'm not going to look at the Broncos game and say, "MVS had more targets and yards than Adams therefore it was the correct decision to target him more often in the passing game."

One guy was more productive than the other yesterday. I didn't say Williams was the better back, but you can't go for less than 2 yards per carry in almost a dozen touches and wonder why he's not getting the ball more.

Defenses can do things to take away a receiver, the run game is basically the run game. I can't say I saw Denver doing anything in particular to take the run game away. I don't know why Adams got that few of targets, but it was fairly apparent why Williams got the nod later in the game.

 

[Sunshinepacker]

One guy was more productive than the other yesterday. I didn't say Williams was the better back, but you can't go for less than 2 yards per carry in almost a dozen touches and wonder why he's not getting the ball more.

Defenses can do things to take away a receiver, the run game is basically the run game. I can't say I saw Denver doing anything in particular to take the run game away. I don't know why Adams got that few of targets, but it was fairly apparent why Williams got the nod later in the game.

Fair enough. I don't particularly believe in the "hot hand" approach at RB when two players aren't somewhat close in talent but I know that many do subscribe to that approach and I think that's the basic disagreement on this. We'll see what happens Thursday

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

I think part of the rationale of splitting carries like that against the Broncos was knowing that Philly is coming on Thursday Night. If you could get the production by splitting carries, not overworking one certain back will definitely bode well against the Eagles.

Decent point and possible. I also think that Gute was going with the guy that seemed to be the better player during that one game. I will take some flack for saying this and I do like Aaron Jones, but lets not fool ourselves into thinking he is Alvin Kamara, Barkley, Zeke, etc. He is an above average RB, but IMO has benefited a bit by playing on a team that has historically thrived on being a pass oriented offense.

 

[Mondio]

Fair enough. I don't particularly believe in the "hot hand" approach at RB when two players aren't somewhat close in talent but I know that many do subscribe to that approach and I think that's the basic disagreement on this. We'll see what happens Thursday

we know who the #1 back is. But half of Williams' carries were probably with a 2 possession game nearing the end with a big game on thursday. There were more than a couple reasons to run Williams like they did. Jones will still get the starts