Offensive line needs....

[Deleted member 6794]

GB carried nine offensive lineman last year, and this year they'll have an extra spot on the 53 since they're unlikely to carry three quarterbacks. They might keep nine again.

True, I forgot the team kept nine offensive linemen on the roster last season. If they do it again this season that would leave two spots up for grab in camp.

 

[GreenBaySlacker]

Have you heard the phrase "Correlation does not equal causation." ?

Sounds like a fancy way to say just because it looks that way, and everything points that way, doesnt mean it is that way... Me and my friends didnt go to college. I dont know any football coaches. Im a guy who started a crew building log homes straight out of the wisconsin woods, at 21 years old. Build the best log homes now. Built in 22 states. If you want 100% correct answer 100% of the time... Better ask me about log homes....

If you want perfect grammar and punctuation? Dont ask me at all...

Im going to give you some insight into who I am. I mastered this log home game by the time I was 27. I was building mansions on the mountain for billionaires and senators... And I walked away. Went back to the woods I came from... A few years back I came back to the front to fight my way back to the top. First house back was for a 3 star generals daughter... Next thing you know Im being courted by a Amish company that builds 100 log homes a year. I am under the assumption, that they are the leaders of one of the founding Amish families... Born and bred, world class builders. Among other things...

But just like football. The log home industry changed about 25-30 years ago. Went from slapping logs together and patching the rot and gaps later... to an engineered home that will last hundreds of years. In this transition, many many great men have invested their lives into the product, but the technique is all up in the air. And just like you Packers affiliated dudes(assumed based on knowledge and dedication, that this is a job of sorts for some of you), sitting comfortably on top of the football world.... THE Amish were solid in their technique.....

Enter this dude, straight out of nowhere. They sent guys to that first house I built (and every one since), and started rewriting their builders manual... 3 years in, They got my technique messed up. Their builders manual contradicts itself many times. They act like slicksters trying to get me to just tell them what Im doing. Which I have no problem with, because I evolved into artistry log work a decade ago. Straight square milled clean stuff is just a job. A ways to a means for a self sufficient dude who was born broke. But now its the principle of it all... I was suposed to go to Ohio and put things on paper for them a month ago. but like Raji, I decided to go on hiatus. I am developing my mill, and building a kiln. THE Amish will find out that when something gets in my way, I will find a way to get rid of it and move forward.... They will see me at their log cabin days this fall. I have one log home to build in Lake Geneva this summer, to keep me occupied. Point is, if THE Amish shown some respect, and gave credit where it was due. Their entire multi million dollar company wouldnt look like morons to anyone who reads and comprehends their manual... Not to mention liable for damages WHEN someone messes things up. They would have their answers and more answers they didnt even know they wanted... Simple act of respect and giving credit where its due... Which takes a little humility.

Now I have admitted many times, that not every idea i come up with is a winner. But in building log homes, you find the only people who make mistakes are the ones who do everything. Its that way with any creative process. And the truth is, nobody evolves, and learns without trying. Maybe its a total fail. Maybe greatness...? When football reaches the age a game like chess is, we will have all the answers. But until then, everyone should respect the unknown. Quit acting like their way is the only way.

Part of the job description and also a counter to how defenses work.

Against an even front (4-3, 4-2 nickel, 4-1 dime, etc) the center is typically uncovered. So he gets to the second level to attack linebackers. If facing a shaded nose, the center will double team the nose and then more than likely release for more linebacker hunting. In other words, speed and athletic ability is more useful at center than guard. As size and speed tends to be inversely proportional, centers tend to smaller.

Against and odd front (3-4, 3-3), the center will almost always be getting help from the play-side guard in a double team against the nose. It's not so much that bigger isn't helpful, but not needed, as he is getting help about 90% of the time.

Good answer... I look at things different... I would never concede a one man advantage without even a fight. I would look at it as, if their guy is 350. We should have a great athlete pushing 325 at least.... Granted, the only guys out there who can touch the ball, and handle a nose tackle 1 on 1 would be top tier LTs. The big ones. That get paid a lot!!! But logically and strategically. You put your biggest best guy closest to the ball on defense. And to oppose that I would put center at maybe the highest priority on the Oline... Modern NFL obviously cemented that idea as an automatic double team, only needing a 300 pounder to help, and possibly move on and hit a LB, as an added bonus... Thats a solid plan too. But........ Out of 7 Billion people? Hundreds of world class athletes trying to play every year. NOBODY could block a 350 pound NT 1 on 1??? Now OTs have a special job, to stop edge rushers. Thats a lot more space. The Center should be more capable of stopping one man in a given space between guards... I KNOW it sounds crazy.... But in a game of battle for ground. With trenches of hand to hand war. I would never concede a fight before it was fought... They got their biggest guy there, we will match...

To your knowledge Radke? Anyone ever tried to play a huge center 1 on 1 with DTs and Noses?



Bold claim. I am skeptical. You have data that supports this? Just what I mentioned about our best Olinemen in the last decade + all being closer to 320...

And even if that statement is true, how do we acquire these more-dominant players? Are you prepared to draft them earlier at the expense of the more-rare pass rusher? The next pro-bowl quarterback? The next shutdown corner?

Thompson has shown the ability to find these guys in the mid rounds... A couple premiere 1st round book end OTs was a GREAT idea... But unfortunately Sherrod (who i think was evolving into a very dominating looking LT) career was ended early, and Bulagas knees are not great... But yes. invest heavily on O and D lines, every year until we are too stacked. Then a maintence plan to fill holes by guys who price themselves out of town.

 

[TJV]

But unfortunately Sherrod (who i think was evolving into a very dominating looking LT) career was ended early...

Which game, preseason or regular season gave you that impression?

 

[mradtke66]

Sherrod (who i think was evolving into a very dominating looking LT)

I disagree with that premise. Strongly.

He had a terrible set. He bent at the waist to get into his stance. If you know anything about football leverage, this should make you cringe. You get low with loose hips and knee bend. This gives you power and balance.

Clifton had this in spades. I think JSOline had a quote to the effect of "it looks like he's sitting in a chair." That's what you want. Bulaga has that. Bakhtiari sort of this with his inside leg, but his outside leg is weird. I don't know if that's injury related, a technique thing to help him kick out and set the edge, or just the way his body bends and he's more of a waist-bender but found away to work around it.

 

[GreenBaySlacker]

I disagree with that premise. Strongly.

He had a terrible set. He bent at the waist to get into his stance. If you know anything about football leverage, this should make you cringe. You get low with loose hips and knee bend. This gives you power and balance.

Clifton had this in spades. I think JSOline had a quote to the effect of "it looks like he's sitting in a chair." That's what you want. Bulaga has that. Bakhtiari sort of this with his inside leg, but his outside leg is weird. I don't know if that's injury related, a technique thing to help him kick out and set the edge, or just the way his body bends and he's more of a waist-bender but found away to work around it.

I dont know about waste bend. But he was a big body that got thrown to the wolves as a rookie, and held his own... It wasnt pretty a very first, but he was definately settled in when his leg got destroyed... I remember Clifton, flexability and all, took YEARS to evolve into a very good LT. I think with some patience, Sherrod would have been a stud as well... We will never know now.

 

[tynimiller]

I think Sherrod would still be starting...a stud OL not sure, but starting I say yes.

 

[GreenBaySlacker]

Which game, preseason or regular season gave you that impression?

I read he played in 5 regular season games 2011... He got injured dec 18th.......... Also, maybe my optimism for a rookie 1st round pick was unwarranted. But as I stated, he came out and gave up a couple few sacks early. then seemed to start settleing in. I was becoming optimistic around the time he got hurt. He wasnt the liability he was at first, and seemed to be doing OK... Which is all you can hope for with a rookie on a busted up Oline...

 

[mradtke66]

I dont know about waste bend.

You need to. If you want to critique offensive tackles, it is CRITICAL. To do otherwise is akin to being an art critic and being color blind. It's that bad.

(It's really important for all linemen, but especially for tackles. The need to slide laterally puts extra emphasis on it.)

So now the "why."

1) Lateral Movement. This is easy to demonstrate. Bend over at the waist and and try to shuffle laterally, back and forth, quickly. Now do the same thing in more of a squat position. The difference should be obvious. Anyone who's played middle school or high school football is probably familiar with this. It can be summarized as "a drill you did once a day during two-a-days and anytime during the season when the line wasn't doing their job in the run game."

2) Power. If you bend at the waist, you cannot extend your body to deliver a blow. The only movements you have are your arms. If you have bent knees and hips, you have your arms, your hips and knees to extend. Hopefully I don't have to explain how your glutes and quads are significantly stronger than your pecs and tris.

Additionally, you can absorb the charge of an opposing defensive end easier. If you're bent at the waist, your body doesn't have a bend. So you are either going to slide backwards or be stood up. If you get stood up, it's over--you have zero power and are now just a sled to be pushed back into the quarterback. If you're bent at the hips and knee, you have a little natural spring to take some the charge and once you've absorbed it, you are in position to push back with your lower body.

3) Technique. Once again, anyone who has played football at any level has (hopefully) had a coach that has said, "Low man, inside hands win!" He probably screamed it a lot. If you can bend at the knee and hip, you can be that low man (by getting low) and be the inside hands by being in the "chair sit" position. Your hands are front of you, thumbs almost touching, palms up, elbows in tight. When the defender gets close to you, you deliver your punch to their chest plate. This is standard pass-protection stuff. I don't understand how you can even DO that if you're a waist bender UNLESS YOU STAND STRAIGHT UP! If you stand up, it's over, see above.

 

[TJV]

I dont know about waste bend. But he was a big body that got thrown to the wolves as a rookie, and held his own... It wasnt pretty a very first, but he was definately settled in when his leg got destroyed... I remember Clifton, flexability and all, took YEARS to evolve into a very good LT. I think with some patience, Sherrod would have been a stud as well... We will never know now.

IMO once again you're making things up. This is from McGinn's grading column after Sherrod's rookie season:

Sherrod finished with 73 snaps at RT, 39 more at LT. Beat for a sack, two knockdowns, four hurries and 3½ bad runs. Also drew two penalties. Because it was a clean fracture, there is optimism he will be ready to play in '12. He needs a ton of technique work along with greater urgency in his approach. He's still a long way away. Grade: F.

We'll never know how Sherrod's career would have turned out without the injury, but there's no reason to pretend he was playing better than he was before the injury.

 

[GreenBaySlacker]

You need to. If you want to critique offensive tackles, it is CRITICAL. To do otherwise is akin to being an art critic and being color blind. It's that bad.

(It's really important for all linemen, but especially for tackles. The need to slide laterally puts extra emphasis on it.)

So now the "why."

1) Lateral Movement. This is easy to demonstrate. Bend over at the waist and and try to shuffle laterally, back and forth, quickly. Now do the same thing in more of a squat position. The difference should be obvious. Anyone who's played middle school or high school football is probably familiar with this. It can be summarized as "a drill you did once a day during two-a-days and anytime during the season when the line wasn't doing their job in the run game."

2) Power. If you bend at the waist, you cannot extend your body to deliver a blow. The only movements you have are your arms. If you have bent knees and hips, you have your arms, your hips and knees to extend. Hopefully I don't have to explain how your glutes and quads are significantly stronger than your pecs and tris.

Additionally, you can absorb the charge of an opposing defensive end easier. If you're bent at the waist, your body doesn't have a bend. So you are either going to slide backwards or be stood up. If you get stood up, it's over--you have zero power and are now just a sled to be pushed back into the quarterback. If you're bent at the hips and knee, you have a little natural spring to take some the charge and once you've absorbed it, you are in position to push back with your lower body.

3) Technique. Once again, anyone who has played football at any level has (hopefully) had a coach that has said, "Low man, inside hands win!" He probably screamed it a lot. If you can bend at the knee and hip, you can be that low man (by getting low) and be the inside hands by being in the "chair sit" position. Your hands are front of you, thumbs almost touching, palms up, elbows in tight. When the defender gets close to you, you deliver your punch to their chest plate. This is standard pass-protection stuff. I don't understand how you can even DO that if you're a waist bender UNLESS YOU STAND STRAIGHT UP! If you stand up, it's over, see above.

I can see this is backed by physics. The facts are concrete...

I have a story about lifting weights in H.S.... Me and my friend were each coming up on the school record for squat in our weight class. I was flexable, and rode bike EVERYWHERE. He was a very wide kid with a barrel chest. Couldnt bend the hips and knees like you guys mention. He was 5'5" and could barely get down enough to call it a squat. All back bend.... But you better believe that back bend didnt stop him from lifting the weight... I cringe thinking about a couple 16 year olds lifting with their back, but we did it. He has never had a back injury to this day. Just built solid. Now that has nothing to do with leverage. But it says something about how everybody is built different. Maybe technique is BAD, but core power compensates???
Im not trying to rewite the fundamentals of football. This stuff is tried and tested. Its how you teach football... But to discredit a 325 pound rookie 1st rounder because of technique? He made it this far with bad technique apparently. Imagine where he could have been now after 5 years of work and coaching under his belt. The kid was a tank. IMO

 

[GreenBaySlacker]

IMO once again you're making things up. This is from McGinn's grading column after Sherrod's rookie season: We'll never know how Sherrod's career would have turned out without the injury, but there's no reason to pretend he was playing better than he was before the injury.

What exactly am I making up??? That Clifton sucked for a few years until he was good? And a few more until him and Tauscher were bookends???
Or that most those crappy stats You and McGinn pointed out were in the first game Sherrod played as a rookie? And that the last few he was in, you didnt see his name called. Which is good for Olinemen IMO. McGinn probabally looked at the numbers, and made a flashy (EEEFFFFFFFF HAHAHAH!!!!) call on a guy who was sitting on IR... Safe to say he was a bust, if you are going on record as a reporter AFTER the fact. But did Mr McGinn figure in that the Oline was beat up by injuries? He was left side , he was right side. He had different guys around him all the time. Sherrod did pretty good before he got hurt...... All things considered.

 

[mradtke66]

Maybe technique is BAD, but core power compensates???

Nope. Bend at the waist. Have someone push you in the forehead. I could probably knock you over with little more than one finger. This is not an exaggeration.

Im not trying to rewite the fundamentals of football. This stuff is tried and tested. Its how you teach football... But to discredit a 325 pound rookie 1st rounder because of technique?

The problem is that it isn't necessarily just technique. His body may just be unable to bend that way. If that was the case, all the work in the world won't fix it. If it is possible to fix, he must be willing to work on it. Hard. And even then, when you are fatigued, it is easy to fall into bad habits.

He made it this far with bad technique apparently.

Problem there is he was probably always one of the biggest, strongest, and most agile through high school and college--he didn't need technique. Problem is that everyone in the NFL is bigger, stronger, faster. You need near perfect technique to compete. He had great measurables, but he also had flaws. Worthy of the 1st round, yes. But he was a giant project. To pretend otherwise is dishonest.

 

[TJV]

What exactly am I making up???

This is what you made up: "(Sherrod) ... was evolving into a very dominating looking LT". That comment is ignorant and yet another example of you not knowing what you're talking about. And here's another: No one said he was a bust. But most of us don't say and write what they hoped would have happened. And most of us don't pontificate regarding subjects about which we know very little.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Tony Mandarich was a FHOF OT, until he took the field at the pro level.

 

[I asked LT to delete my acct]

Right, the moderators have repeatedly advised members that if they do not like what another member is saying USE THE IGNORE FEATURE. Don`t make us take it to the next level.

 

[GreenBaySlacker]

This is what you made up: "(Sherrod) ... was evolving into a very dominating looking LT". That comment is ignorant and yet another example of you not knowing what you're talking about. And here's another: No one said he was a bust. But most of us don't say and write what they hoped would have happened. And most of us don't pontificate regarding subjects about which we know very little.

Wells lets see. 1st round pick. 325 pounds almost. 5 games in, seemed to not be letting guys get past him. And in that time our run blocking was coming into ito own. With lang, and Sitton settling in and a little depth at OT. All in all, I seen a guy who looked in control 5 games into his rookie season.
Feel free to pick apart everything i say though...

By the way. Im a 365 day a year fan. I watched all the games he played in. I would say I know more than "nothing". As far as pontificating my infallable word on you all??? I was simply giving my opinion.

I didnt go after you when you stated "which game did I get my conclusion from? the preseason or the game"? I assumed you were saying he only played one regular season game. I looked it up to double check... So what exactly were you trying to say? that he played one game and im an idiot? Or asking me which game specifically?

 

[I asked LT to delete my acct]

Enough is enough !