Not Saying This Isn't a Bad Loss, But.....

DaveRoller

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The loss yesterday was only "bad" if you think the Packers play better at home (7-0) than on the road (3-4), because home field advantage almost certainly went out the window.

The loss yesterday was devastating if you think the Pack will win at (2-12) Tampa Bay, then defeat the Lions (who have not won in Wisconsin in 2 decades), follow up that win with a bye and a playoff victory at home (against a Philly, Dallas, New Orleans type team), and then have to travel to Seattle for the NFC Championship game.

But then again, it was only a loss to an AFC team yesterday, so there is that consolation.
 

Sunshinepacker

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The problem with playing Seattle on the road is that they'll do exactly what Buffalo did today: clutch and grab receivers all over the secondary. That is a ************ for our Packers.

Refs seem loathe to flag more than one or two such penalties (illegal contact, pass interference) per game, despite the early season emphasis this year. When defenses are persistent about it, the officials eventually stop throwings flags. It's like they step back and decide to let them play rather than enforce the rules. It's ********. Add a raucous home crowd and the officials will probably be cowed into letting that Seattle defense do exactly what it did last year (i.e., plenty of clutching and grabbing in the secondary).

Not blaming today's loss on the officials but holy **** was it bad in Buffalo. I hope the Packers send some ******* tape to the NFL offices.

Not directed at you but if the game is being called that loosely and you have Lacy averaging 6.4 yards per carry, why in the &#^! would you not give him the ball more than 15 times?!?! It was like McCarthy and Rodgers were trying to prove a point to the refs by throwing the ball 42 times.
 

Ogsponge

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Some of you are talking about whether you would rather face Seattle or Arizona at home. At this point, I am more concerned we may have to play a wildcard game vs the 6-10 Saints in the Superdome...

That is a ten times more troubling scenario to me than either of the 2 NFC West teams. Losing to one of those teams is one thing, losing to the pathetic Saints a 2nd time....
 

profile_removed

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I was predicting a loss when the schedule came out against Buffalo. I didn't however expect Aaron to drop his pants and open wide for them like he did.
 

JK64

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Winning on the road after a Monday night victory is nearly impossible. Packers have played 3 top 5 defenses this season and have been throttled each time so today's loss should not come as a surprise. Home field advantage now depends on the Packers beating the lions and a Seattle loss.

I don't think that the Packers were throttled, they beat themselves. There were plenty of opportunities to win the game.
 

brandon2348

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I don't think that the Packers were throttled, they beat themselves. There were plenty of opportunities to win the game.

Yeah but I think it's time to get honest with ourselves that we are missing a TE such as we had with J-Finley. These teams are focusing everything on taking away our outside weapons which would be a dream for a TE like Finley. MM has tried to use Lacy and Starks out of the back field to make up for the drop off and we have had some success but nowhere near what Finley could do or his production last year.

The only good thing about this loss I can see is that it gives MM another chance to get his sharpie out and figure out how to attack these defenses that want to play physical on the outside cause were gonna see more of them moving forward. A big physical TE like Finley would be so nice right now.
 

RainX

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No loss is completely good, but this one was probably the least amount of damage for a December loss. As bad as they've played all year, they were still in a position to potentially win that game late in the 4th. The team is still in the driver's seat for a first round bye and divisional playoff home game, which is the most important thing imo. Once the playoffs roll around, all bets are off and it's a whole new season. If this team can't take care of a 2-12 Tampa squad on the road next week and then beat a playoff contender in Detroit in W17 for the division in what will more or less be a playoff like atmosphere, they don't deserve a first round bye.

Better to lay an egg now then come January and the team was probably due for a bad game. As I've said since earlier in the year, 12-4 is what was needed to be in the conversation for a bye in the NFC, and they've still got the inside track to it as long as they take care of business. Let the NFC West chips fall as they may. This squad needs to worry about itself before thinking about playoff seedings.
 

thisisnate

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Yeah but I think it's time to get honest with ourselves that we are missing a TE such as we had with J-Finley. These teams are focusing everything on taking away our outside weapons which would be a dream for a TE like Finley. MM has tried to use Lacy and Starks out of the back field to make up for the drop off and we have had some success but nowhere near what Finley could do or his production last year.

The only good thing about this loss I can see is that it gives MM another chance to get his sharpie out and figure out how to attack these defenses that want to play physical on the outside cause were gonna see more of them moving forward. A big physical TE like Finley would be so nice right now.

I agree (lots of other problems, but offensively this stands out.) He's a WR, obviously, but watching the Eagles/Cowboys last night, I really began to miss Finley again while watching Dez just elevate over guys at will and take the ball away from them. Oof, we could use that again.

Not many guys in the draft that fit that bill, but our primary need is ILB, and the only one that warrants a 1st round pick will probably be gone before we get a shot at him. So who knows... maybe they go loco and snatch up Devin Funchess or Dorial Green-Beckham to fill our vertical threat need.

I hope not, but who knows. I think we just had a bad game /shrug
 
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Yeah but I think it's time to get honest with ourselves that we are missing a TE such as we had with J-Finley. These teams are focusing everything on taking away our outside weapons which would be a dream for a TE like Finley.
Finley was never used as a go-to possession TE. He was just another weapon in the intermediate-to-deep passing game.

Switching gears to a ****-and-dunk ball control offense when the intermediate-to-deep stuff isn't working was as big a problem when Finley was around. As Rodgers said recently, this is at heart a down-the-field passing team.
 

brandon2348

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Finley was never used as a go-to possession TE. He was just another weapon in the intermediate-to-deep passing game.

Switching gears to a ****-and-dunk ball control offense when the intermediate-to-deep stuff isn't working was as big a problem when Finley was around. As Rodgers said recently, this is at heart a down-the-field passing team.

I know but last year when we played physical type teams I remember Rodgers going to Finley a lot. I am not saying early in Finley's career. I am looking at Finley's "body of work" last year. Against Baltimore in Baltimore Finley made some big catches over the middle with yards after catch.

Don't you think yesterday Rodgers would of liked to have Finley to dump it down to over Quarless or Rodgers?
 
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I know but last year when we played physical type teams I remember Rodgers going to Finley a lot. I am not saying early in Finley's career. I am looking at Finley's "body of work" last year. Against Baltimore in Baltimore Finley made some big catches over the middle with yards after catch.

Don't you think yesterday Rodgers would of liked to have Finley to dump it down to over Quarless or Rodgers?
Perhaps, in one game, maybe this one, maybe not. The body of work says "no" in most games. It's just not a ****-and-dunk offense.
 

brandon2348

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Perhaps, in one game, maybe this one, maybe not. The body of work says "no" in most games. It's just not a ****-and-dunk offense.

Well if they wanna play "home run ball" guys better get separation against physical secondaries and catch balls. If you look at the teams that will be in the playoffs they almost all have physical style of play in the secondary including the Lions who we need to beat to make the playoffs most likely.

Edit: Also I don't see how having to move Cobb to back field so he can get space goes along with "down field passing game".
 
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HardRightEdge

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Well if they wanna play "home run ball" guys better get separation against physical secondaries and catch balls. If you look at the teams that will be in the playoffs they almost all have physical style of play in the secondary including the Lions who we need to beat to make the playoffs most likely.
The problems against rush-4-and-play-physical-cover-two defenses have been obvious for several years now.

One player won't make a difference; it's not even a scheme issue. There's very little West Coast left in this offense other than the terminology. It's not they can't do it. We've seen the offense chew up teams with ball control early with the scripted plays, and we've seen it done late when burning the clock. It's just a mind set about the preferred way to win...imposing will through the deep passing game, "I'm going to beat your best with my best".

I'm not sure there's any way around this.

Denver has converted Manning into a game manager the last three weeks against some tough defenses, running the ball 40+ times while Manning puts up pedestrian (and worse) numbers. They can get away with it because their defense is quite good; Green Bay's is not.
 
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brandon2348

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The problems against rush-4-and-play-physical-cover-two defenses have been a problem for several years now.

One player won't make a difference; it's not even a scheme issue. There's very little West Coast left in this offense other than the terminology. It's not they can't do it. We've seen the offense chew up teams with ball control early with the scripted plays, and we've seen it done late when burning the clock. It's just a mind set about the preferred way to win...imposing will through the deep passing game, "I'm going to beat your best with my best".

I'm not sure there's any way around this.

Denver has converted Manning into a game manager the last three weeks against some tough defenses, running the ball 40+ times while Manning puts up pedestrian (and worse) numbers. They can get away with it because their defense is quite good; Green Bay's is not.
R

Denver is another whole story. They haven't had there big TE healthy for awhile now who was tearing the league up. I think there would be a place for Finley in this offense as he could get down field for a big guy. I understand Rodgers is a rookie but he comes across as a little soft to me. Finley at the very least would create a more physical presence in the middle that would take some pressure off the outside guys.

Also, J Finley was pretty good after the catch. As far as the west coast offense yes. That has moved on to the New York Giants.
 

AKCheese

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I'd think the *** whipping Seattle gave us week 1 would keep anybody from getting a big head until we beat them in the playoffs.

If doing that in Seattle intimidates anyone on our team, they don't belong on a Super Bowl roster.
 

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The way to beat the Packers is to double Cobb and Nelson and make Adams and Quarless beat you. I wish we had James zones right now. I like Adams but he's a rookie. Packers are lacking to weapons to consistently move the ball against double coverage
 

jaybadger82

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The way to beat the Packers is to double Cobb and Nelson and make Adams and Quarless beat you. I wish we had James zones right now. I like Adams but he's a rookie. Packers are lacking to weapons to consistently move the ball against double coverage

This is either really stupid or brilliant sarcasm.
 

Sunshinepacker

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Finley was never used as a go-to possession TE. He was just another weapon in the intermediate-to-deep passing game.

Switching gears to a ****-and-dunk ball control offense when the intermediate-to-deep stuff isn't working was as big a problem when Finley was around. As Rodgers said recently, this is at heart a down-the-field passing team.

Even though Finley wasn't used in that fashion, defenses respected his ability to be used in that fashion, which helped open up the field for the receivers. Right now the team doesn't have a player that can threaten the seam and force the safeties to respect that threat. Now, normally that isn't a problem because most defenses aren't good enough to take away the receivers, but we've now seen the lack of that TE threat against Minnesota, New Orleans and now the Bills.

Perhaps if the team was more willing to run the ball consistently but I'm pretty sure D corrdinators don't actually fear the run as much as they should because they know there's a pretty good chance the Packers won't stick with it.
 
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HardRightEdge

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Even though Finley wasn't used in that fashion, defenses respected his ability to be used in that fashion, which helped open up the field for the receivers. Right now the team doesn't have a player that can threaten the seam and force the safeties to respect that threat. Now, normally that isn't a problem because most defenses aren't good enough to take away the receivers, but we've now seen the lack of that TE threat against Minnesota, New Orleans and now the Bills.

Perhaps if the team was more willing to run the ball consistently but I'm pretty sure D corrdinators don't actually fear the run as much as they should because they know there's a pretty good chance the Packers won't stick with it.
Finley, like Graham before him, tried to get himself classified as a WR for franchise tag purposes as a negotiating ploy. There was some merit to his claim given he ran about half his snaps from slot or wide out. Like you say, he'd run a lot of intermediate-to-deep seam routes out of the slot to either draw safety coverage away from the WRs or provide an attractive target if teams tried to cover him with a LB or nickel back.

That does not speak to possession routes.

Cobb out of the slot serves the same purpose as Finley but in a different way. Instead of having a jump ball seam TE, he runs a lot of crossing routes in the intermediate zones. As I posted in another thread, Cobb was the league leader in first downs per target going into week 15, by a wide margin, among the top 30 leaders in yards receiving.

The formulation is the same...opponents can't double two WR and a slot. Against New England, Adams was left one-on-one and the match up was exploited. Buffalo was mixing it up. Cobb had a lot of opportunities; we saw Nelson wide open in single coverage on the dropped pass, Adams had single coverage opportunities but was not connecting with Rodgers on the route.

To me the problem in the Buffalo game (besides the drops and misfires), and the fact that Buffalo has an awfully good defense, was that the Packers did not run the ball enough.

Buffalo came out playing what they played against Denver...nickel, 6 in the box even on run downs, occasionally bringing down a DB over the TE. The Packers had early success running Lacy, but went away from it.

The issues in this game were pass game execution and philosophy (run to set up the pass; short pass to set up the deep pass; don't turn the ball over).

While having a big, semi-fast TE with hops would be a nice weapon to have again, there are different advantages to having a WR in his place in the typical 3-wide set.

In the end, this is a big play offense. As much as I'd like to see a switch to control-the-ball mode in mid-game when the situation dictates, it's unrealistic to expect a 40-45 run/20-25 pass mix the way Denver has been going in recent weeks. The Packers just don't have the kind of defense to be relied upon in close, low-scoring games. That said, Lacy + Starks running the ball only 19 times looks a bit stubborn under the circumstances.
 

Jdeed

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This was a bad loss because it sets up a win out or die for the Packers. Not that they cant do it, but a win last week would have given them a much better chance of making the playoffs. There are just too many teams with good records now that are more than likely going to finish 11-5 or better. the one game that controls a lot of this is Dallas beating Indy.....don't have any clue how or why.
 

Sunshinepacker

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Finley, like Graham before him, tried to get himself classified as a WR for franchise tag purposes as a negotiating ploy. There was some merit to his claim given he ran about half his snaps from slot or wide out. Like you say, he'd run a lot of intermediate-to-deep seam routes out of the slot to either draw safety coverage away from the WRs or provide an attractive target if teams tried to cover him with a LB or nickel back.

That does not speak to possession routes.

Cobb out of the slot serves the same purpose as Finley but in a different way. Instead of having a jump ball seam TE, he runs a lot of crossing routes in the intermediate zones. As I posted in another thread, Cobb was the league leader in first downs per target going into week 15, by a wide margin, among the top 30 leaders in yards receiving.

The formulation is the same...opponents can't double two WR and a slot. Against New England, Adams was left one-on-one and the match up was exploited. Buffalo was mixing it up. Cobb had a lot of opportunities; we saw Nelson wide open in single coverage on the dropped pass, Adams had single coverage opportunities but was not connecting with Rodgers on the route.

To me the problem in the Buffalo game (besides the drops and misfires), and the fact that Buffalo has an awfully good defense, was that the Packers did not run the ball enough.

Buffalo came out playing what they played against Denver...nickel, 6 in the box even on run downs, occasionally bringing down a DB over the TE. The Packers had early success running Lacy, but went away from it.

The issues in this game were pass game execution and philosophy (run to set up the pass; short pass to set up the deep pass; don't turn the ball over).

While having a big, semi-fast TE with hops would be a nice weapon to have again, there are different advantages to having a WR in his place in the typical 3-wide set.

In the end, this is a big play offense. As much as I'd like to see a switch to control-the-ball mode in mid-game when the situation dictates, it's unrealistic to expect a 40-45 run/20-25 pass mix the way Denver has been going in recent weeks. The Packers just don't have the kind of defense to be relied upon in close, low-scoring games. That said, Lacy + Starks running the ball only 19 times looks a bit stubborn under the circumstances.

Cobb doesn't replace Finley because Finley was in addition to Cobb. If Cobb is running Finley's routes then who's running Cobb's routes?

Plus there is a huge difference between having a TE run those routes and a WR. Put a TE in the game and the defense has to account for him with a linebacker. Put a WR in that spot and the defense can put in an extra DB. The TE isn't just about what you can do on offense, it's about forcing the defense to have fewer pass defenders on the field.

I do agree that the lack of rushing opportunities (whether that's on MM or Rodgers) was ridiculous and was, in my opinion, the major factor in the Packers losing.
 
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HardRightEdge

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Cobb doesn't replace Finley because Finley was in addition to Cobb. If Cobb is running Finley's routes then who's running Cobb's routes?

Plus there is a huge difference between having a TE run those routes and a WR. Put a TE in the game and the defense has to account for him with a linebacker. Put a WR in that spot and the defense can put in an extra DB. The TE isn't just about what you can do on offense, it's about forcing the defense to have fewer pass defenders on the field.

I do agree that the lack of rushing opportunities (whether that's on MM or Rodgers) was ridiculous and was, in my opinion, the major factor in the Packers losing.
I mentioned the way safety coverage is drawn from the outside using Cobb out of the slot. You don't have to run jump ball seam routes to do that. You'll note I did not say Cobb runs the same routes as Finley; actually I made a point of it. Please note Adams happens to be on the field. If what you're saying is it would be helpful having Finley out there in the 4 wide receiver sets that are run a few times per game, I wouldn't argue with you. Then again, if Boykin were a better player that would be helpful as well.
 
D

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I mentioned the way safety coverage is drawn from the outside using Cobb out of the slot. You don't have to run jump ball seam routes to do that. You'll note I did not say Cobb runs the same routes as Finley; actually I made a point of it. Please note Adams happens to be on the field. If what you're saying is it would be helpful having Finley out there in the 4 wide receiver sets that are run a few times per game, I wouldn't argue with you. Then again, if Boykin were a better player that would be helpful as well.

The Packers ran a lot of three WR sets (Nelson, Cobb and Jones) with Finley lining up at TE last season before Finley got injured. IMO it´s pretty obvious the Packers are sorely missing a pass catching threat at the TE position, especially against good pass defenses capable of containing Nelson and Cobb. There´s no way a WR can effectively replace a guy like Finley. TE should be a priority next offseason for the Packers as well.
 

PikeBadger

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The Packers ran a lot of three WR sets (Nelson, Cobb and Jones) with Finley lining up at TE last season before Finley got injured. IMO it´s pretty obvious the Packers are sorely missing a pass catching threat at the TE position, especially against good pass defenses capable of containing Nelson and Cobb. There´s no way a WR can effectively replace a guy like Finley. TE should be a priority next offseason for the Packers as well.
That might be very difficult. I read recently that the 15 crop of draftable TE's is a weak class. My suspicion is that R. Rodgers will be counted on to make the jump to be that guy. I think it is safe to expect that he, Adams and Janis will be noticeably better players by the middle of next season than they are right now.
 
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That might be very difficult. I read recently that the 15 crop of draftable TE's is a weak class. My suspicion is that R. Rodgers will be counted on to make the jump to be that guy. I think it is safe to expect that he, Adams and Janis will be noticeably better players by the middle of next season than they are right now.

Yeah, it seems like the 2015 draft doesn´t include any top TEs although a lot of people predict that Devin Funchess will move to TE at the NFL level. Maybe Thompson has to think about bringing in a free agent.
 

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