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[Deleted member 6794]

I don't understand why so many people on here think you have to run a 4.4 to be a good corner . It's probaly the ones who never even played the position and don't understand that instincts and technique have more to do with the position than how fast you run. It's plenty of guys who ran a 4.4 or even a 4.3 who played their way right out of the league. I believe that Hayward or even Hyde can be solid replacements for Williams. Sam Shields runs a freaking 4.2 and I've seen him get beat deep plenty of times. Look up corners who are in the Hall... Tell me how many of those guys were blazers ...I'll wait.

Hayward already played outside during his rookie season and there's no doubt he has the necessary instincts to do it. He had four interceptions while playing there.

But, if he can't prevent being beat deep by fast receivers (he allowed a whopping 30.2 yards per completion while playing outside) the Packers secondary will be in trouble.

 

[Ace]

I don't understand why so many people on here think you have to run a 4.4 to be a good corner . It's probaly the ones who never even played the position and don't understand that instincts and technique have more to do with the position than how fast you run. It's plenty of guys who ran a 4.4 or even a 4.3 who played their way right out of the league. I believe that Hayward or even Hyde can be solid replacements for Williams. Sam Shields runs a freaking 4.2 and I've seen him get beat deep plenty of times. Look up corners who are in the Hall... Tell me how many of those guys were blazers ...I'll wait.

I don't believe I've ever said anything about speed relating to being a good corner. Outside of his rookie year though what have you seen out of him to make you believe he will be a solid outside corner? I'm not saying he will or won't be and you're right I've never played the position, don't see how that's relevant as I've never played QB either and I know Aaron Rodgers is really good, but you seem to see something I don't. I'd be lying if I said I thought he's going to come in and be a lock down corner though based on what I've watched and yeah it makes me a little nervous.

 

[rodell330]

I really don't think those last three drives are a fair assessment of the defense's talent level. I still have absolutely no explanation for what happened at the end of the Seattle game but the offense gaining a total of two yards in six plays and the special teams losing an onside kick didn't help matters during that part of the game either.

During the first 55 minutes the defense allowed 173 total yards on 51 plays (3.4 yards average), created a total of four turnovers and allowed zero points.

Ok, so you agree they can't stop people in crunch time then?

 

[Ogsponge]

Easy. The defense stopped New England on one of the final drives in the 4th quarter preserving a win.
Also, the defense held the Cowboys to only 7 points in the second half of the playoff game.

Literally two games ago...

the two of you are seriously confusing the defense doing its job with the defense saving the day in both of those games the Packers scored 26 points. over the history of the NFL the average score of an NFL game is somewhere around 20 points this past season was something like 22.6. those are games you are supposed to win when you score 26 points, the defense did not save the day by any stretch of the imagination.

Some of you need to open your eyes, this defense is really bad in the biggest moments which means that the defense is bad.

 

[rodell330]

I don't believe I've ever said anything about speed relating to being a good corner. Outside of his rookie year though what have you seen out of him to make you believe he will be a solid outside corner? I'm not saying he will or won't be and you're right I've never played the position, don't see how that's relevant as I've never played QB either and I know Aaron Rodgers is really good, but you seem to see something I don't. I'd be lying if I said I thought he's going to come in and be a lock down corner though based on what I've watched and yeah it makes me a little nervous.

That's understandable . But I can tell you playing in the slot is a whole lot tougher than being on the outside..and Hayward when healthy is one of the better slot corners in the league. Besides, how often does capers even play man to man? That's why it's also important for Burnett and HaHa to be even better.

 

[PackerDNA]

I really don't think those last three drives are a fair assessment of the defense's talent level. I still have absolutely no explanation for what happened at the end of the Seattle game but the offense gaining a total of two yards in six plays and the special teams losing an onside kick didn't help matters during that part of the game either.

During the first 55 minutes the defense allowed 173 total yards on 51 plays (3.4 yards average), created a total of four turnovers and allowed zero points.

I agree in that IMO no three drives- good or bad- define a defense or it's talent level. But in batting around this game, I settled on this;
Both sides of the argument have their good, and correct, points. The bottom line is that although the offense and special teams didn't do their jobs well enough, the defense didn't do their's well enough, either.
They were outstanding for the first 55 minutes, but it's a 60 minute- in this case, 63+-game, and for the last 8+ minutes, they were horrific, playing the role of soft butter to Seattle's hot, sharp knife.
Trying to seperate the two, IMO, comes across as reaching for a moral victory, which I don't believe in.
Bottom line, they failed to do their job.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Ok, so you agree they can't stop people in crunch time then?

I think it's more complex than that but there's obviously a trend with the Packers defense having troubles in the fourth quarter.

Since winning the Super Bowl the Packers rank ninth in the league in points allowed during the first half but drop to 20th in the third and 28th in the fourth.

 

[PackerDNA]

I think it's more complex than that but there's obviously a trend with the Packers defense having troubles in the fourth quarter.

Since winning the Super Bowl the Packers rank ninth in the league in points allowed during the first half but drop to 20th in the third and 28th in the fourth.

Really, the only thing I can come up with is a lack of strength and conditioning.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

I agree in that IMO no three drives- good or bad- define a defense or it's talent level. But in batting around this game, I settled on this;
Both sides of the argument have their good, and correct, points. The bottom line is that although the offense and special teams didn't do their jobs well enough, the defense didn't do their's well enough, either.
They were outstanding for the first 55 minutes, but it's a 60 minute- in this case, 63+-game, and for the last 8+ minutes, they were horrific, playing the role of soft butter to Seattle's hot, sharp knife.
Trying to seperate the two, IMO, comes across as reaching for a moral victory, which I don't believe in.
Bottom line, they failed to do their job.

There's no denying all three units failed miserably at the end of the Seahawks game but it seems like the defense is getting the lion's share of the blame for whatever reason.

 

[PackerDNA]

I guess it's mostly a matter of perception, CaptainWIMM. The D is the last one out there, that's the freshest wound in most people's minds.

 

[Pack-12]

Hayward already played outside during his rookie season and there's no doubt he has the necessary instincts to do it. He had four interceptions while playing there.

But, if he can't prevent being beat deep by fast receivers (he allowed a whopping 30.2 yards per completion while playing outside) the Packers secondary will be in trouble.

Need to also keep in mind that he was a rookie that year and we had MD Jennings and rookie Jerron McMillian playing one of the safety positions all year. Also, how many of those plays were him actually getting beat deep and not say a screen pass or a coverage mix up? It wouldn't be a stretch to expect him to be improved as long as his legs stay healthy. I don't see much reason to think he can't at the very least play up to the level that we got out of Tramon last year on the outside.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Need to also keep in mind that he was a rookie that year and we had MD Jennings and rookie Jerron McMillian playing one of the safety positions all year. Also, how many of those plays were him actually getting beat deep and not say a screen pass or a coverage mix up? It wouldn't be a stretch to expect him to be improved as long as his legs stay healthy. I don't see much reason to think he can't at the very least play up to the level that we got out of Tramon last year on the outside.

I agree that having either McMillian or Jennings providing help over the top didn't make it any easier for Hayward. I will take a look at those plays tomorrow and let you know about how Casey got beat when playing outside.

 

[PackerDNA]

CaptainWIMM, do you ever sleep?

 

[Deleted member 6794]

CaptainWIMM, do you ever sleep?

Yeah, normally around from 5 PM to 1 AM Wisconsin time.

 

[TeamTundra]

the two of you are seriously confusing the defense doing its job with the defense saving the day in both of those games the Packers scored 26 points. over the history of the NFL the average score of an NFL game is somewhere around 20 points this past season was something like 22.6. those are games you are supposed to win when you score 26 points, the defense did not save the day by any stretch of the imagination.

Some of you need to open your eyes, this defense is really bad in the biggest moments which means that the defense is bad.

Fact is the Packers defense stopped the Patriots at the end of the game and that is something the
Seahawks defense couldn't accomplish. Fact is the Packers defense only surrendered 7 points
In the entire 2nd half of a playoff game against one of the best offenses in the league.

Does the defense need to improve? Sure, no one is debating that point, but if that can't see some
Good in this defense than there is no use arguing with you.

 

[Ogsponge]

Fact is the Packers defense stopped the Patriots at the end of the game and that is something the
Seahawks defense couldn't accomplish. Fact is the Packers defense only surrendered 7 points
In the entire 2nd half of a playoff game against one of the best offenses in the league.

Does the defense need to improve? Sure, no one is debating that point, but if that can't see some
Good in this defense than there is no use arguing with you.

I agree because if you can't see that the defense is about 90% responsible for why this team can't get back to the Super Bowl, then there is no sense in arguing with you either. The defense fails this team over and over again. There simply is no defense for this defense.

 

[Shawnsta3]

I agree because if you can't see that the defense is about 90% responsible for why this team can't get back to the Super Bowl, then there is no sense in arguing with you either. The defense fails this team over and over again. There simply is no defense for this defense.

I don't think 90% of the blame can be put on the defense for the team not winning the super bowl, especially the last two years. 90% is a huge number.

Two years ago they were decimated by injuries and still only allowed 23 points to the defending NFC Champions which should be winnable. This past year they allowed 22 points in regulation to the defending Super Bowl Champion Seahawks and forced (five!) turnovers, which again should be winnable.

To ignore the impact costly special teams mistakes hurt the Packers vs. the Seahawks, and the marginal performances by Rodgers and the passing game with a 202.5 yard passing average the last two years in losses would be foolish.

 

[Carl]

the two of you are seriously confusing the defense doing its job with the defense saving the day in both of those games the Packers scored 26 points. over the history of the NFL the average score of an NFL game is somewhere around 20 points this past season was something like 22.6. those are games you are supposed to win when you score 26 points, the defense did not save the day by any stretch of the imagination.

Some of you need to open your eyes, this defense is really bad in the biggest moments which means that the defense is bad.

If you put up 26 points to teams with really good offenses, you are not supposed to win.

The Cowboys and Patriots averaged 29.2 points per game last season. Against the Packers, each scored 21. Each game included a late stop to protect the lead too.

I'm not saying the defense has not had issues, but it doesn't do any good to discredit good performances to try to add to your point.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Need to also keep in mind that he was a rookie that year and we had MD Jennings and rookie Jerron McMillian playing one of the safety positions all year. Also, how many of those plays were him actually getting beat deep and not say a screen pass or a coverage mix up? It wouldn't be a stretch to expect him to be improved as long as his legs stay healthy. I don't see much reason to think he can't at the very least play up to the level that we got out of Tramon last year on the outside.

As I promised yesterday I took a look at every completion Hayward allowed playing on the outside in 2012. He was targeted a total of 17 times and allowed only six completions (35.3%) for 181 yards (30.2 avg.) while not allowing a single TD with four interceptions. One of the completions was a lateral that Chris Givens turned into a 56-yard completion.

Taking that play out of consideration Hayward allowed five completions that travelled a total of 115 yards (23.0 avg.) through the air with another 10 yards allowed after the catch.

I´m well aware that the sample size is pretty small and Hayward didn´t allow a lot of completions but he has to be able to minimize big plays.

 

[rodell330]

I think Hayward will be fine. Don't be shocked to see him spending a lot of time inside even tho he may be listed as starting RCB on the depth chart.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

I think Hayward will be fine. Don't be shocked to see him spending a lot of time inside even tho he may be listed as starting RCB on the depth chart.

Well, if Hayward continues to play a lot in the slot who will be the Packers cornerback outside opposite Shields???

 

[PackerDNA]

Well, if Hayward continues to play a lot in the slot who will be the Packers cornerback outside opposite Shields???

Don't worry, we'll 'fix it in the draft'.

 

[rodell330]

Well, if Hayward continues to play a lot in the slot who will be the Packers cornerback outside opposite Shields???

There's a guy on the team named Micah Hyde. He's the obvious choice right? And before anyone starts this nonsense about him not being fast enough again, look at the guys in the Hall.

 

[rodell330]

Don't worry, we'll 'fix it in the draft'.

Micah Hyde is already on the roster.

 

[PackerDNA]

The issue I have, rodell330, is even if Hyde and Hayward are good enough, are they good enough as full time players? Can they handle all the responsibilities of the job, or will their weaknesses be more exposed and pronounced?
Even if they're fine, they better stay healthy because there's no depth, and it's unlikely that any rookie will be effective- or not too much of a liability- in that role.