Lazard Situation...

[Pokerbrat2000]

I still can’t believe Sammy Watkins barely contributed. I thought even at a low he would finish in that 400-500 yards, 3-4TD area. He had the perfect setup in GB and he was all over the wrong place.

Yeah, I thought the same thing. Guess it proved why he was considered to be a flop (picked 4th in 2014 draft) after 2 productive rookie years in Buffalo.

He reminded me a bit of Jaylon Smith. A guy that everybody loved, despite his knee injury before the draft. When the Packers signed him mid season in 2021, I thought it would be an awesome pickup. In the 2 games he saw action in for the Packers, he just looked totally lost and all over the place.

 

[Magooch]

No, the point I was trying to make is that when you take a look at a player's ranking in average salary per season you need to consider that there are a lot of players at the position currently on rookie deals as well. Therefore MVS currently being paid like a top 40 wide receiver doesn't mean the league is considering him to be in that category but most likely a tier below.

That’s fine, but the point *I* was trying to make is that we can get Lazard-level production for less than Lazard-level money, so I guess I’m not sure why that clarification needed to come in response to my post when I didn’t say anything regarding rookie contracts one way or another.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

While I concur with you both that our WR room is super young and inexperienced, if Love is the QB in 2023, I would rather see the Packers build that room from the ground up with young guys. Bringing in a veteran, even a cheap one, just takes snaps away from guys that will be with the Packers at least 3 more seasons (Watson, Doubs and Toure). Save the money, work on fixing the cap and go with youth, that can develop with a young QB. If it turns out Love is legit and he needs more WR help in 2024, then you go hit the FA market.

Not sure if its been said or maybe it has its own thread, but if Rodgers is traded, I wouldn't be all that sad to see the Packers try and trade Bahk and Jones, to secure more draft capital and further slim down the future cap hits.

I highly doubt Love would be able to prove he's a legit NFL quarterback with the wide receiving corps lacking talent. Especially if the Packers get rid of Bakhtiari and Jones on top of it as well. Actually the team would set him up to fail big time.

That’s fine, but the point *I* was trying to make is that we can get Lazard-level production for less than Lazard-level money, so I guess I’m not sure why that clarification needed to come in response to my post when I didn’t say anything regarding rookie contracts one way or another.

It's possible I quoted the wrong post. My bad. I agree the Packers should be able to find a receiver capable of putting up similar numbers than Lazard for far less money than what he will be looking for.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

I highly doubt Love would be able to prove he's a legit NFL quarterback with the wide receiving corps lacking talent. Especially if the Packers get rid of Bakhtiari and Jones on top of it as well. Actually the team would set him up to fail big time.

The WR corp is lacking talent as it is, but it could be on the upswing with Watson and Doubs. My point was how do you go about improving that for the future. Do you add in another Sammy Watkins like vet or do you use a top 3 round pick on another youngster? I'd prefer that latter, if Love is at QB, gives all of them plenty of time to mesh and develop together.

As far as Bahk and Jones, it isn't like you aren't going to replace them, with hopefully NFL level talent. Rodgers won an MVP without Bahk.

I don't expect Love to come in and instantly be a FHOF QB and yes, you do want to set him up for success. However, I think you can do that slowly, as you get cap healthy and restock the roster with good young players. With a healthy cap, the Packers can also return to signing a few high end free agents to fill immediate needs.

 

[SudsMcBucky]

There is NO WAY I'd let Bahk go. If you cut him, you're only saving about $6.0MM in cap hit versus keeping him. You ain't gonna find another top flight LT (assuming Bahk is still healthy) in this league for $6.0MM per year.

 

[Mondio]

There is NO WAY I'd let Bahk go. If you cut him, you're only saving about $6.0MM in cap hit versus keeping him. You ain't gonna find another top flight LT (assuming Bahk is still healthy) in this league for $6.0MM per year.

agree 100%. He's still one of the best in the league and I do feel better about his knee now than I did. I'd take the chance without thinking that he stays healthy because the upside is huge and we're not replacing his production with someone else. We can get a lot worse.

We may be losing our 6th olineman in Big Dawg this year too, our Oline could go from not very good to terrible in a hurry.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

There is NO WAY I'd let Bahk go. If you cut him, you're only saving about $6.0MM in cap hit versus keeping him. You ain't gonna find another top flight LT (assuming Bahk is still healthy) in this league for $6.0MM per year.

Actually, for the record, I didn't say they should CUT Bahk. Below is what I did say:

I wouldn't be all that sad to see the Packers try and trade Bahk and Jones, to secure more draft capital and further slim down the future cap hits.

If they wait until after June 1st, to trade Bahk, they would spread the dead cap hit out and save $17.5 million in 2023 and probably pick up some pretty decent 2024 draft asset(s) in the process.

 

[Sunshinepacker]

The WR corp is lacking talent as it is, but it could be on the upswing with Watson and Doubs. My point was how do you go about improving that for the future. Do you add in another Sammy Watkins like vet or do you use a top 3 round pick on another youngster? I'd prefer that latter, if Love is at QB, gives all of them plenty of time to mesh and develop together.

Bringing in another rookie doesn't add any experience to the group, which I think a lot of fans don't appreciate the importance of. I'd certainly like a rookie brought in but signing a guy like Paris Campbell or D.J. Chark would not break the bank (PFF projects Paris at $7.5m per year and Chark at $11m per year) and they would add some veteran knowledge to a group that, currently, has nobody in the locker room to teach them the habits they need to be successful NFL players.

 

[OldSchool101]

I highly doubt Love would be able to prove he's a legit NFL quarterback with the wide receiving corps lacking talent. Especially if the Packers get rid of Bakhtiari and Jones on top of it as well. Actually the team would set him up to fail big time.

Probably in the very short term. That’s fine as most QB’s come in with a learning curve and they need experience.
Also I think you will be surprised how quickly and how much of the sunk money gets washed by 2024. IF and it’s a big IF because Rodgers may play here 1 more season. If it’s going to go direction of a down season, it aligns with washing debt.

These don’t even account for the draft capital that a down season provided in comp picks and draft order. BJ Raji is just one example of how picking early in rounds pays dividends. We aren’t used to that and I believe we’ve underestimated how drafting in single digits will impact our team inside 2-3 seasons.

Then there’s possible trade equity which we haven’t even addressed. There’s a reasonable possibility we get serious trade equity that would make our 2022 draft look like a featherweight draft.

Also, This staff is very capable at turning an extra $30m per season into stellar impact players.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Bringing in another rookie doesn't add any experience to the group, which I think a lot of fans don't appreciate the importance of. I'd certainly like a rookie brought in but signing a guy like Paris Campbell or D.J. Chark would not break the bank (PFF projects Paris at $7.5m per year and Chark at $11m per year) and they would add some veteran knowledge to a group that, currently, has nobody in the locker room to teach them the habits they need to be successful NFL players.

IF you are bringing in a Vet. WR just for locker room experience, I am guessing that there will be plenty of vets on the team with that and then some. Not sure why you would think that only other WR's would give them that? Most of the coaches have quite a bit of experience as well.

IF you are bringing in a Vet to assure the team has more talent at WR, then you might have an argument. For me though, if they are going with Love, I would prefer a high pick on a WR and let the young group grow with Love. Since I think his first year or 2 will be strictly development and growth. Now if Rodgers decides to play another season and it is with the Packers, then I see the need to bring in immediate help at both WR and TE.

 

[OldSchool101]

IF you are bringing in a Vet. WR just for locker room experience, I am guessing that there will be plenty of vets on the team with that and then some. Not sure why you would think that only other WR's would give them that? Most of the coaches have quite a bit of experience as well.

IF you are bringing in a Vet to assure the team has more talent at WR, then you might have an argument. For me though, if they are going with Love, I would prefer a high pick on a WR and let the young group grow with Love. Since I think his first year or 2 will be strictly development and growth. Now if Rodgers decides to play another season and it is with the Packers, then I see the need to bring in immediate help at both WR and TE.

I’d normally say we might use a 1st/2nd Rounder at WR. Yet until I see a Day1 WR happen? I’ll cancel my own thought there. Maybe a TE? but knowing our staff, unlikely.

I do believe we could be sniffing at WR or TE or even eager to get one with using pick #45 or #78 overall in some capacity. I use the word capacity to include a more broad usage of trading up or down the board slightly.

Like you said. If Rodgers stays then there’s a slightly higher % chance that we would get a Day1 Receiving TE/WR or be more aggressive in adding Offensive help.

Those are my guesses and I think Watson, Doubs and a top #45 type WR and 1 of the 2 of Lazard or Cobb is fine. We still have

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

I’d normally say we might use a 1st/2nd Rounder at WR. Yet until I see a Day1 WR happen? I’ll cancel my own thought there. Maybe a TE? but knowing our staff, unlikely.

I do believe we could be sniffing at WR or TE or even eager to get one with using pick #45 or #78 overall in some capacity. I use the word capacity to include a more broad usage of trading up or down the board slightly.

Like you said. If Rodgers stays then there’s a slightly higher % chance that we would get a Day1 Receiving TE/WR or be more aggressive in adding Offensive help.

Those are my guesses and I think Watson, Doubs and a top #45 type WR and 1 of the 2 of Lazard or Cobb is fine. We still have

If Rodgers is traded, we should have enough draft picks in Day 1 and Day 2, to splash around a bit. In that situation, Gute has the ability to look more long term and what the team might look like in 2 years. If Rodgers stays, I think Gute has to go all in, with fewer draft picks. He will need to explore all ways of trying to find immediate help at S, OT, WR, TE.

 

[GreenNGold_81]

If Love is the guy you gotta keep throwing darts at early picks for passing game help, IMO. I'd prioritize TE and Oline this draft and possibly RB if we're losing Jones. I'm not so sure this is the draft to get a first-round WR. With our defense underachieving and inexplicably keeping Barry, I foresee more shootouts next year, so the offense will need to keep up.

 

[OldSchool101]

If Love is the guy you gotta keep throwing darts at early picks for passing game help, IMO. I'd prioritize TE and Oline this draft and possibly RB if we're losing Jones. I'm not so sure this is the draft to get a first-round WR. With our defense underachieving and inexplicably keeping Barry, I foresee more shootouts next year, so the offense will need to keep up.

If it’s Love I’d let Lazard walk and keep Cobb for 1 more season.

I could see where a player like DL, Bryan Bresee could impact early and bolster the Run D. Then I’d go hit the Offense with a Stud receiver or TE. Darnell Washington in Round 2 and Marvin Mims Jr after that. I think that would give us a nice boost along with some growth out if Doubs, Watson, Toure.
I think the Right side of our OL needs to be injected with an established, proven Veteran in the mold of a Billy Turner type signing.

 

[OldSchool101]

If Rodgers is traded, we should have enough draft picks in Day 1 and Day 2, to splash around a bit. In that situation, Gute has the ability to look more long term and what the team might look like in 2 years. If Rodgers stays, I think Gute has to go all in, with fewer draft picks. He will need to explore all ways of trying to find immediate help at S, OT, WR, TE.

Yes. Provided he doesn’t retire.

If we trade him and get an extra Day1 selection? I’d put the chances of WR/TE at 60% in Round 1

 

[GreenNGold_81]

If it’s Love I’d let Lazard walk and keep Cobb for 1 more season.

I could see where a player like DL, Bryan Bresee could impact early and bolster the Run D. Then I’d go hit the Offense with a Stud receiver or TE. Darnell Washington in Round 2 and Marvin Mims Jr after that. I think that would give us a nice boost along with some growth out if Doubs, Watson, Toure.
I think the Right side of our OL needs to be injected with an established, proven Veteran in the mold of a Billy Turner type signing.

I'm off on Cobb, if Rodgers retires or is traded his best friend needs to go too. If Cobb was a veteran mentor then Amari would have developed instead of floundered.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

The WR corp is lacking talent as it is, but it could be on the upswing with Watson and Doubs. My point was how do you go about improving that for the future. Do you add in another Sammy Watkins like vet or do you use a top 3 round pick on another youngster? I'd prefer that latter, if Love is at QB, gives all of them plenty of time to mesh and develop together.

I would prefer to add a veteran and a draft pick. While the youngsters on the roster have shown some promise they need an experienced leader to make it work in my opinion.

As far as Bahk and Jones, it isn't like you aren't going to replace them, with hopefully NFL level talent. Rodgers won an MVP without Bahk.

You don't adequately replace an elite left tackle and running back with players just good enough to make it to the league though.

Rodgers is an elite quarterback capable of making up for a struggling offensive line. I highly doubt Love is capable of doing that at this point in his career.

I don't expect Love to come in and instantly be a FHOF QB and yes, you do want to set him up for success. However, I think you can do that slowly, as you get cap healthy and restock the roster with good young players. With a healthy cap, the Packers can also return to signing a few high end free agents to fill immediate needs.

If the Packers go with Love as their starter in 2023 they have a maximum of two seasons to make a decision on paying him after the '24 season. They don't have an entire rookie deal to develop a decent corps to surround him with.

If they wait until after June 1st, to trade Bahk, they would spread the dead cap hit out and save $17.5 million in 2023 and probably pick up some pretty decent 2024 draft asset(s) in the process.

If the Packers move on from Rodgers this offseason I don't see any need to push dead cap into the 2024 season.

Probably in the very short term. That’s fine as most QB’s come in with a learning curve and they need experience.

As mentioned above, the Packers don't have a ton of time for Love to develop.

Also, This staff is very capable at turning an extra $30m per season into stellar impact players.

As long as they don't spend it on players like Savage of course

I'm off on Cobb, if Rodgers retires or is traded his best friend needs to go too. If Cobb was a veteran mentor then Amari would have developed instead of floundered.

Cobb isn't the one responsible for Amari having turned out a bust.

 

[tynimiller]

I'm off on Cobb, if Rodgers retires or is traded his best friend needs to go too. If Cobb was a veteran mentor then Amari would have developed instead of floundered.

Two things, Cobb doesn’t have a contract so not an issue unless Rodgers demands him back if he returns.

Also you cannot place Amari failings at the feet of Cobb.

 

[GreenNGold_81]

Two things, Cobb doesn’t have a contract so not an issue unless Rodgers demands him back if he returns.

Also you cannot place Amari failings at the feet of Cobb.

Just did. It's been reported that Cobb had been mentoring Amari for a long time, turns out he did a pretty **** poor job then took his snaps.

 

[tynimiller]

Just did. It's been reported that Cobb had been mentoring Amari for a long time, turns out he did a pretty **** poor job then took his snaps.

They knew of eachother and communicate, don’t run with something to the extreme you are as that was never reported or actually occurred.

Goes back to when Amari was a young young kid visiting KY due to his father Tee Martin being a coach there….which coincided with when Cobb was there.

Stayed in touch, would text and call but there wasn’t any like full blown come work out with me years and years conducted. Relationship yes, but Cobb didn’t make the failings Amari had.

 

[GreenNGold_81]

They knew of eachother and communicate, don’t run with something to the extreme you are as that was never reported or actually occurred.

Goes back to when Amari was a young young kid visiting KY due to his father Tee Martin being a coach there….which coincided with when Cobb was there.

Stayed in touch, would text and call but there wasn’t any like full blown come work out with me years and years conducted. Relationship yes, but Cobb didn’t make the failings Amari had.

"Stayed in touch?" Sounds like you agree he took on a mentorship role.

...oh wait... what's this?
"Green Bay Packers rookie receiver Amari Rodgers grew up admiring Randall Cobb and eventually learning from him, but he never believed his mentor would ever become his NFL teammate."
(source: https://apnews.com/article/sports-nfl-business-amari-rodgers-a3ebaad7685fc1cc0167a8715b96938a)

 

[Deleted member 6794]

"Stayed in touch?" Sounds like you agree he took on a mentorship role.

...oh wait... what's this?
"Green Bay Packers rookie receiver Amari Rodgers grew up admiring Randall Cobb and eventually learning from him, but he never believed his mentor would ever become his NFL teammate."
(source: https://apnews.com/article/sports-nfl-business-amari-rodgers-a3ebaad7685fc1cc0167a8715b96938a)

Even if Cobb was a mentor to Amari that doesn't mean he deserves any blame for Rodgers not developing into a decent NFL player.

 

[Mondio]

There are mentors and then there are mentors. What was he? The guy he knew that told him a few stories, or the guy that worked with him when all the lights were off them on routes, film study, play book quizzes etc. Mentor has become one of those words like "epic" or "fact checked". just words they use in journalism with no real meaning anymore. meant to convey a message to the reader, real or not.

 

[GreenNGold_81]

Even if Cobb was a mentor to Amari that doesn't mean he deserves any blame for Rodgers not developing into a decent NFL player.

The book on Amari isn't written yet. He's getting more opportunities in Houston, so we don't know how he'll develop now. Nobody here will convince me that we didn't blow our chance to develop a decent slot receiver by catering to Aaron Rodgers and bringing his best friend in. BUT, back to the point. The whole discussion re: Cobb is in reference to Oldschool's post about keeping Cobb another season. There's really no point. He's not an effective mentor, he's a shell of his former self and I'd rather see a rookie or young player suited for the slot take his snaps.

 

[GreenNGold_81]

There are mentors and then there are mentors. What was he? The guy he knew that told him a few stories, or the guy that worked with him when all the lights were off them on routes, film study, play book quizzes etc. Mentor has become one of those words like "epic" or "fact checked". just words they use in journalism with no real meaning anymore. meant to convey a message to the reader, real or not.

Cobb's own words...

Cobb, however, said it would be a big mistake to write off Rodgers. He reminded people that Adams struggled early in his career and there were fans ready to give up on him. He said he will continue to mentor Rodgers and help him become the player he thinks he can be.


“What we do is not easy and for anybody to think that you can just walk into a place and become great … it's a process,” Cobb said. “So, just give it time. Some people take a little longer to blossom. It's about me helping him understand and build confidence and know who he is and allowing him to continue to grow.”

Randall Cobb committed to helping young Packers receiver Amari Rodgers develop

Packers receiver Randall Cobb said it would be a mistake to write off Amari Rodgers, pointing out that Davante Adams struggled early in his career.

www.jsonline.com