Latest Mock...this is far too good to occur

[green&goldsoul]

I am not here to convince everyone that Hockenson must be the pick at #12, but "a lack of projected competition for him" in 2020 seems like a terrible reason to not draft him.

Again, apply that standard everywhere and it really limits you. Can't draft Devin White! He'll just be handed the keys.

Not close. Martinez is the defensive QB. Pack never drafts this early (12). Just to risky for TE. OL yes. Interior D yes. But hopefully it all works out.

 

[green&goldsoul]

Oof... to each their own, but trading away extra picks to move up to #7 only to take Devin White is basically my nightmare scenario.

Ten draft picks is unnecessary. PacjaPa and make moves after the guys we want. Qunninen Williams at 5 would be perfect storm but not gonna happen. And no one else is worth moving for. Devin White will be a stud. And beside a tackling machine like Blake, he could really shine

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Ten draft picks is unnecessary.

That's an odd approach to the draft.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

I think there will be players equal to or even better than Devin White or even White himself, available when the Packers pick at #12. I wouldn't want to give up a 2nd rounder to trade up to get him.

 

[Dantés]

Ten draft picks is unnecessary. PacjaPa and make moves after the guys we want. Qunninen Williams at 5 would be perfect storm but not gonna happen. And no one else is worth moving for. Devin White will be a stud. And beside a tackling machine like Blake, he could really shine

They could certainly trade up at points in the draft if they wanted to, but if they did so for an off ball linebacker in the top 10 who would have been like the 4th best guy in last year's class, I'd be ticked.

 

[Dantés]

Not close. Martinez is the defensive QB. Pack never drafts this early (12). Just to risky for TE. OL yes. Interior D yes. But hopefully it all works out.

If this pick is too high for the positional value of a TE, then why are you advocating a trade up for an off-ball linebacker?

 

[green&goldsoul]

If this pick is too high for the positional value of a TE, then why are you advocating a trade up for an off-ball linebacker?

That position (ILB) could solidify the defense. TE won't solidify the offense. There is not exact science to drafting. It's the person plus the system. I'd just personally rather bank on Pettines defense than Lafleurs offense. It's way too much pressure on Lafleur in his first year. It's only an opinion.

 

[green&goldsoul]

They could certainly trade up at points in the draft if they wanted to, but if they did so for an off ball linebacker in the top 10 who would have been like the 4th best guy in last year's class, I'd be ticked.

How can u say he'd fourth in last year's class? Not sure I understand that one. I simply value guys that are on the field on 3rd down (defensively). Care to explain 4th best of someone that hasn't played a down professionally yet?

 

[Dantés]

How can u say he'd fourth in last year's class? Not sure I understand that one. I simply value guys that are on the field on 3rd down (defensively). Care to explain 4th best of someone that hasn't played a down professionally yet?

I'm saying that I think Roquan Smith, Leighton Vander Esch, and Tremaine Edmunds were better prospects than Devin White. In other words-- I think White's actual value is being a little inflated this year because this LB class is weak.

 

[Dantés]

That position (ILB) could solidify the defense. TE won't solidify the offense. There is not exact science to drafting. It's the person plus the system. I'd just personally rather bank on Pettines defense than Lafleurs offense. It's way too much pressure on Lafleur in his first year. It's only an opinion.

You're entitled to your opinion and I have no problem if someone wants a LB more than a TE. I'm just saying that all these arguments you've offered (e.g. positional value, competition in 2020) cut both ways.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

That position (ILB) could solidify the defense. TE won't solidify the offense. There is not exact science to drafting. It's the person plus the system. I'd just personally rather bank on Pettines defense than Lafleurs offense. It's way too much pressure on Lafleur in his first year. It's only an opinion.

I know this is just your opinion and while I like Devin White, saying that a player could solidify a defense at ILB but a player won't solidify an offense at TE isn't taking the value of each of those two positions, as well as the other 10 players around them into consideration. I think its pretty obvious from what TT did by going out and getting Cook and then Bennett and Gute followed up with Graham, both GM's saw that that TE was a position worth spending big money on to try and solidify the offense. I didn't see that same urgency at ILB by either GM.

Now I am not saying that a Pro Bowl caliber player at either position isn't valuable, but I don't think you should overlook just how important a TE can be in the Packer offense.

 

[green&goldsoul]

I'm saying that I think Roquan Smith, Leighton Vander Esch, and Tremaine Edmunds were better prospects than Devin White. In other words-- I think White's actual value is being a little inflated this year because this LB class is weak.

Agreeable. That puts him in some pretty good company tho. Immediate starter on rookie contract with 5th year option. But this is why I enjoy and hate the draft so much every year.

 

[Dantés]

Agreeable. That puts him in some pretty good company tho. Immediate starter on rookie contract with 5th year option. But this is why I enjoy and hate the draft so much every year.

Sure. And he's good (though I prefer Devin White, personally). So I'm fine with him in the 1st round, but I would be ticked if they traded up. I just don't think they need to do that.

 

[green&goldsoul]

I know this is just your opinion and while I like Devin White, saying that a player could solidify a defense at ILB but a player won't solidify an offense at TE isn't taking the value of each of those two positions, as well as the other 10 players around them into consideration. I think its pretty obvious from what TT did by going out and getting Cook and then Bennett and Gute followed up with Graham, both GM's saw that that TE was a position worth spending big money on to try and solidify the offense. I didn't see that same urgency at ILB by either GM.

Now I am not saying that a Pro Bowl caliber player at either position isn't valuable, but I don't think you should overlook just how important a TE can be in the Packer offense.

I know this is just your opinion and while I like Devin White, saying that a player could solidify a defense at ILB but a player won't solidify an offense at TE isn't taking the value of each of those two positions, as well as the other 10 players around them into consideration. I think its pretty obvious from what TT did by going out and getting Cook and then Bennett and Gute followed up with Graham, both GM's saw that that TE was a position worth spending big money on to try and solidify the offense. I didn't see that same urgency at ILB by either GM.

Now I am not saying that a Pro Bowl caliber player at either position isn't valuable, but I don't think you should overlook just how important a TE can be in the Packer offense.

I'm not. I feel like our offense never recovered from losing Jermichael Finley. And was all for keeping Jared Cook. But being that were never in the position to select 12th, would just hate to see TE be that selection of all things.

 

[green&goldsoul]

Sure. And he's good (though I prefer Devin White, personally). So I'm fine with him in the 1st round, but I would be ticked if they traded up. I just don't think they need to do that.

Oh of course if he just lands at 12 that's a given.

 

[green&goldsoul]

I know this is just your opinion and while I like Devin White, saying that a player could solidify a defense at ILB but a player won't solidify an offense at TE isn't taking the value of each of those two positions, as well as the other 10 players around them into consideration. I think its pretty obvious from what TT did by going out and getting Cook and then Bennett and Gute followed up with Graham, both GM's saw that that TE was a position worth spending big money on to try and solidify the offense. I didn't see that same urgency at ILB by either GM.

Now I am not saying that a Pro Bowl caliber player at either position isn't valuable, but I don't think you should overlook just how important a TE can be in the Packer offense.

That kind of speaks to my point. They chased TE for years and it never panned out. Not for the TE or the team. Maybe more effort should have been made to get A.J. Hawks replacement before he retired. Dominant defense just wins more often than not in this league.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

That kind of speaks to my point. They chased TE for years and it never panned out. Not for the TE or the team. Maybe more effort should have been made to get A.J. Hawks replacement before he retired. Dominant defense just wins more often than not in this league.

Your original point was that the Packers shouldn't spend a high pick on a TE, that it would be better to spend late round picks on the position, let them develop and win a starting spot. When I pointed out that this was a failed method for TT so he (and Gute) thus turned to trying to land a quality TE via Free Agency, your rebuttal was that this didn't work out and a TE can't solidify an offense.

Now you are saying dominant defenses win, so more effort needs to be put on the defense. Have you followed the last 7 or so Packer drafts? How has using most of our high draft capital on the defense panned out?

I get that you like Devin White, since your posts started with this:

Dream Mock
Trade with Jacksonville 12th plus second fourth round plus seventh round for 7th overall pick.
Devin White at 7

BTW.....our #12 along with #118 and #226 wouldn't be nearly enough firepower to move up to #7, at best, #10 and I even doubt that.

Anyway, I would be fine with White at #12 or Hochenson, I think either has a chance to make an impact with the team to warrant the pick, but no way do I trade up to #7, which would probably take our #12 and #44, to pick either player.

 

[green&goldsoul]

Your original point was that the Packers shouldn't spend a high pick on a TE, that it would be better to spend late round picks on the position, let them develop and win a starting spot. When I pointed out that this was a failed method for TT so he (and Gute) thus turned to trying to land a quality TE via Free Agency, your rebuttal was that this didn't work out and a TE can't solidify an offense.

Now you are saying dominant defenses win, so more effort needs to be put on the defense. Have you followed the last 7 or so Packer drafts? How has using most of our high draft capital on the defense panned out?

I get that you like Devin White, since your posts started with this:



BTW.....our #12 along with #118 and #226 wouldn't be nearly enough firepower to move up to #7, at best, #10 and I even doubt that.

Anyway, I would be fine with White at #12 or Hochenson, I think either has a chance to make an impact with the team to warrant the pick, but no way do I trade up to #7, which would probably take our #12 and #44, to pick either player.

Gronk second round
Kelce third round
Graham third round
Hernandez fourth round
The list goes on. Ebron is the last TE to b drafted 12th or lower in years and hes producted nothing until last yr with a new team. Moving up for ILB maybe not the best move. But TE at 12 is a worse move.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Gronk second round
Kelce third round
Graham third round
Hernandez fourth round
The list goes on. Ebron is the last TE to b drafted 12th or lower in years and hes producted nothing until last yr with a new team. Moving up for ILB maybe not the best move. But TE at 12 is a worse move.

None of this is consistent with your original post (below), stating that TE's should only be drafted in late rounds. Nor am I debating the fact that you can't find a great TE from the 2nd round on, but I could say the same thing about the ILB position. If both White and Hochenson are there at #12, it will be a tough decision for the Packers, but my guess is, if they are deciding between the two, they are picking the best player, regardless of position.

Finally, you are conveniently leaving out quiet a few TE's that were drafted in the 1st round and went on to have pretty decent careers. To name a few:

Vernon Davis, Kellen Winslow, Jeremy Shockey, Bubba Franks, Tony Gonzales.....

Competition is key. Hockenson won't have that. He'll just be handed the keys after Jimmy leaves. No his fault of course. But with only one other TE on the roster in 2020, just don't like that for the 12th over all pick. Drafting two late round TEs with the the 10 picks will make for health competition to find our next starter or starters. I guess I just value defense more, especially with AR 12 on the other side. ILB or DL or OL at 12th pick. Either could potentially start or be rotated for scenario. Safety a need as well. But value wise, addressable after 12th pick.

 

[OldSchool101]

If I’m the team at #7 overall. I haven’t heard anyone even close to making it feasible for me going backwards out of the top 10. You’re talking both #12 and #30 to keep anyone in the conversation IMO.

That’s reserved for maybe the top 3 D prospects, as much as I like White that cost is too high. Trading a mid rounder and landing him at 9-10 I’d consider. I’ve got him right in that Roquon area.

 

[sschind]

Competition is key. Hockenson won't have that. He'll just be handed the keys after Jimmy leaves. No his fault of course. But with only one other TE on the roster in 2020, just don't like that for the 12th over all pick. Drafting two late round TEs with the the 10 picks will make for health competition to find our next starter or starters. I guess I just value defense more, especially with AR 12 on the other side. ILB or DL or OL at 12th pick. Either could potentially start or be rotated for scenario. Safety a need as well. But value wise, addressable after 12th pick.

Lets see if I've got this straight. It is better to have 2 less talented TEs because they will compete against each other thus making each other better than it is to have a single TE that is hands down better than anyone else even without that competition. Now you've got two guys taking up roster spots who won't put up the numbers of one guy. It doesn't make sense to me.

As far as competition being the key you said yourself that a first round pick has to be the starter no matter what. So where is the competition in that. you are handing the first round pick the keys to his position just like you complained about with Hockenson.

I'm with you on the defense part. I love a good strong defense and a good running game. IMO that is the way to win consistently. However, on those occasions where you can't hold your opponent to under 24 points you had better be able to score yourself.

 

[OldSchool101]

There’s been exhausted research in this forum and all conclusions come back to this. Having a well rounded and relatively balanced team in all 3 phases is the key to success.
If there is ever a question as to pick an O vs D and all other things are equal? Go Defense. This year may be an exception because of past reluctance to recognize that balance strategy of the Championship teams. We can’t chase our Defensive tail in 2019
Of course that means balancing not just picking repeatedly at D like we’ve done for the last decade.

This year, in my estimation, we need to lean Offense slightly. IF we go D at #12 we’d better be laser focused at O the next couple picks. I’d prefer O all remaining players deemed relatively equal.

 

[sschind]

Oof... to each their own, but trading away extra picks to move up to #7 only to take Devin White is basically my nightmare scenario.

Its partially personal bias that makes you say that. You have to admit it you are not as high on Devin White as many others are. Replace White with a player of your choosing and you may be seeing it a bit differently. Of course you did address that with the "to each their own" I'm just spelling it out. Its more of a general comment aimed at those who are opposed to any particular move proposed by any fans. Replace their guy with your guy and the move doesn't seem so bad.

I'm not saying you would advocate trading up just that you might be more open to the idea if it was for a player you were high on. Obviously G&G is high ion White and for that reason you have to understand why he thinks this would be a great strategy.

 

[sschind]

That position (ILB) could solidify the defense. TE won't solidify the offense. There is not exact science to drafting. It's the person plus the system. I'd just personally rather bank on Pettines defense than Lafleurs offense. It's way too much pressure on Lafleur in his first year. It's only an opinion.

Its not an exact science when it comes to drafting a TE at 12 but you seem to think it is when it comes to trading up to get White at #7. How do you know a TE won't solidify the offense?

Now the part about banking on Pettines defense than Lafleurs offense that is an opinion I could be convinced to agree with. However, if you are going to feel that way because you are going to give the defense all the shiny new toys there will be no way for the offense to catch up. If you are ever going to have confidence in LaFleuer's offense they are going to have to get some of those new toys as well.

 

[sschind]

If I’m the team at #7 overall. I haven’t heard anyone even close to making it feasible for me going backwards out of the top 10. You’re talking both #12 and #30 to keep anyone in the conversation IMO.

That’s reserved for maybe the top 3 D prospects, as much as I like White that cost is too high. Trading a mid rounder and landing him at 9-10 I’d consider. I’ve got him right in that Roquon area.

In other words you don't think G&G's proposal of #12, #118 and #226 (part of his dream mock) would be enough to get us the 7th pick. I don't think there is any way in heck we get all the way to 7 with that offer. It might get us into the top 10 but just barely. I'd give that up in a heartbeat to move up to #7. I don't know if I would take White but I'm pretty sure there would be someone worth taking for giving up those picks. I do think we could get to #7 without giving up #30 but it would certainly take #12 #44, #114 or 118 and maybe even then some.