Grade this draft

[Pokerbrat2000]

Turning over a new leaf? I thought (post #118) that you were an optimistic Packer fan?

Damnit Jones......thanks for reminding me of that, I didn't see you sitting there in the back seat!.....I went from optimist to pessimist/realist in a mere cup of a coffee!

BTW....you guys aren't suppose to be keeping track of what people previously said!

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

The addition of Cook to the offense and more (potential) speed outside in a more experienced Janis & new pick Trevor Davis should prevent defenses from packing the short routes IF Jordy were to have more problems.

Getting back to my optimistic ways, I agree with you. The addition of Cook should help this team, with or without Jordy

Not so sure I am going to bank on Davis contributing quite yet. But I am also expecting more out of a healthy Cobb, Adams and Montgomery.

 

[Pkrjones]

Not so sure I am going to bank on Davis contributing quite yet. But I am also expecting more out of a healthy Cobb, Adams and Montgomery.

There's WR speed on the roster... hopefully MM will figure out how to utilize some of it this year. We've already seen what happens with Cobb, Adams and a few games with Montgomery and defenses were able to clamp down. AR likes to hold the ball and extend plays... perfect for speed to get down field. I know AZ playoff was just one game, but Janis did his damage down field... he's not going to hurt defenses running 8 yard outs.

 

[HardRightEdge]

I don't know, I think the Packers got about as much out of Jones as they could have hoped for. Especially when you consider what they paid him and when they obtained him. Was he a true #1 wideout, did he have the blazing speed the offense needed? Heck no, but what else do you do on August 23rd, when your #1 goes down and you soon discover that your cupboard was not as fully stocked as you had planned/hoped? Maybe the Packers having to rely on Jones could be called a problem, but I would hardly call Jones himself a problem with that offense last year.

I agree with the general analysis...beggers can't be choosers...but that does not obviate the problems that arise when you do go begging.

In the earlier post you seemed to show some enthusiasm for a Jones return. Do you really want to go begging again? I'd think setting sights higher would be preferred over the lowest common denominator.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

There's WR speed on the roster... hopefully MM will figure out how to utilize some of it this year. We've already seen what happens with Cobb, Adams and a few games with Montgomery and defenses were able to clamp down. AR likes to hold the ball and extend plays... perfect for speed to get down field. I know AZ playoff was just one game, but Janis did his damage down field... he's not going to hurt defenses running 8 yard outs.

The additional speed of Jordy, Cook and maybe Davis, will definitely help. I would love to include Janis in that sentence, but he is going to have to prove that his 2 catches for 101 yards, can be achieved during the normal course of the game and not just on hail mary type plays.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

I agree with the general analysis...beggers can't be choosers...but that does not obviate the problems that arise when you do go begging.

In the earlier post you seemed to show some enthusiasm for a Jones return. Do you really want to go begging again? I'd think setting sights higher would be preferred over the lowest common denominator.

I have never hid my enthusiasm for Jones, love the guy (as a #3). If I had my way, Jones would still be on the roster (at vet min.) and we wouldn't have to go begging in late August if he is needed again. In saying that, I am in no way saying Jones would 100% make the team. Just like all of the WR's, he would have to earn a roster spot. I am all about developing players, but if they aren't ready to step up and be your #3, what next? I understand why the Packers moved on from Jones and am hopeful that one of the younger guys proves them right and is ready to step up.

Edit and last thought: I have no clue what Jones is seeking in the way of a contract, but if he would sign for vet min and no guarantees, who would you rather have in camp, Jones or Patrick Donahue? If nothing else, from Jones you get some veteran leadership and some insurance.

 

[HardRightEdge]

...who would you rather have in camp, Jones or Patrick Donahue?

Ultimately, that's not the question. You called him a #3 receiver and then lumped him in with a long shot camp body.

The question is, "can he play up to acceptable standards in the offense"? I'd say no, reach higher, don't settle.

Besides, the point is moot, the decision has been made, he ain't comin' back any more than Mike Neal is coming back.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Ultimately, that's not the question. You called him a #3 receiver and then lumped him in with a long shot camp body.

The question is, "can he play up to acceptable standards in the offense"? I'd say no, reach higher, don't settle.

Besides, the point is moot, the decision has been made, he ain't comin' back any more than Mike Neal is coming back.

He definitely isn't a #1, definitely is not a slot receiver, so what else do you call him besides a potential #3? Of course you set your standards higher. Ideally you want a young up and comer getting lots of reps playing at the #3. My point is, what if we don't have that come September? We hit the FA market again? Jones to me would simply be a back up plan for injuries and some currently unknown commodities playing behind Nelson and Cobb. A veteran who can seamlessly fit right into the Packer offense, if needed. Asking him to basically become our #1 outside WR was expecting too much of him, but given what we had last year, he more then earned his spot on the roster. A roster that currently has only been changed by Jordy being ready to go again and the addition of a 5th round pick.

Let me ask this question, what are the down sides of Jones being on the current roster and brought into camp?

 

[tynimiller]

Let me ask this question, what are the down sides of Jones being on the current roster and brought into camp?

I LOVE JJ, truly one of my favorite Packers....so know this is tough to say.

He would take valuable reps from a now healed Adams and Monty, a delayed learner in Janis and a newcomer in Davis...not too mention Abby who is also fighting like **** for a look on the roster. It sucks, but Jones isn't the future and we gotta find out who in the Adams/Monty/Janis/Davis/Abby camp is, because I do feel 1 if not 2 of them will stick for a few years moving forward. My money is Davis and Monty....with Janis sticking around as the ST stud and #4....I pray Adams proves me wrong but I think after this year he may be done if he doesn't step up!

I have defended Adams numerous times, but you cannot hide the fact this is the year he makes or breaks as a GB WR.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

He would take valuable reps from a now healed Adams and Monty, a delayed learner in Janis and a newcomer in Davis...not too mention Abby who is also fighting like **** for a look on the roster.

Again, not saying Jones will win a roster spot (taking game reps from . But when you have 13/14 WR's in Camp already, the argument that he will take valuable reps away from the other 12/13 guys doesn't make a lot of sense to me. If anything, he is less work to have around in camp then an UDFA. If at the end of the pre-season, you have a decision to make between a 32 year old Jones and a 22-25 year old up and comer who earns a roster spot, then its a no brainer. But if you open the season with same line-up as we ended the season and the level of play looks to be about the same, would Jones be wanted on that roster?

 

[Deleted member 6794]

My point is, what if we don't have that come September? We hit the FA market again? Jones to me would simply be a back up plan for injuries and some currently unknown commodities playing behind Nelson and Cobb. A veteran who can seamlessly fit right into the Packer offense, if needed. A roster that currently has only been changed by Jordy being ready to go again and the addition of a 5th round pick.

Let me ask this question, what are the down sides of Jones being on the current roster and brought into camp?

I would be fine with re-signing Jones for a veteran minimum deal and let him battle for a roster spot in training camp. With all of the youngsters presenting way more upside and him struggling late in the season I don't think he would make the team though.

 

[HardRightEdge]

Let me ask this question, what are the down sides of Jones being on the current roster and brought into camp?

First of all, you worry too much. Of the all contingencies you have to plan for, going 6 deep into the receiver rotation should not be high on the list. If that happens, you might lose some football games as last season, but it is the kind of calculated risk that teams must make.

It's more likely you'll have to go 2 deep at quarterback which we know will cost games. If you're concerned that a guy like Jones would be necessary under an injury scenario, you should be more worried that the Packers have not gone in for a vet backup as many teams do.

So what do you do with Jones in training camp? Play him with the second team, taking those reps against better completion from a guy now demoted to the camp body group? How about preseason? Who gets those second team snaps? Don't you want to give developmental players the opportunity to, well, develop. There's not substitute for game play.

The other alternative is you bring Jones to camp and stick him with the third stingers/camp bodies, saying in essence, just hang around in case you're needed, but if we don't lose 2 guys for the season by week 1 we'll put you on the roster? I don't think that's going to work, for a variety of reason.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

I would be fine with re-signing Jones for a veteran minimum deal and let him battle for a roster spot in training camp. With all of the youngsters presenting way more upside and him struggling late in the season I don't think he would make the team though.

I agree, the odds of him making the roster would be tied to the odds of one of the younger guys doing as you say, presenting reasons why the Packers should keep them. I fully expect that out of at least 1-2 of either Adams, Montgomery, Abby, Janis or a rookie will do this. But if it doesn't happen, or injuries take their toll, there are worse options out there then James Jones for your insurance policy.

 

[tynimiller]

He doesn't need it, and is gonna be there if we end up needing him. No need to waste time. I love him don't get me wrong.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

First of all, you worry too much. Of the all contingencies you have to plan for, going 6 deep into the receiver rotation should not be high on the list. If that happens, you might lose some football games as last season, but it is the kind of calculated risk that teams must make.

Devil in the details

One year ago today, I would not be sitting here even thinking about this. At that time our WR group looked to be tops in the NFL. One key injury along with the performances of the other guys we were counting on seemed to change all of that as well as the effectiveness of the offense.

So sure I might sound like I am worrying about nothing, but based on last years WR play, I think some concern over them is warranted and contingency plans justified.

 

[Mondio]

I think injuries to the group and to the oline group really multiplied the issue last year. We lose Jordy, that's a hit. Cobb injures his shoulder early in the year. Adams is only a 2nd year player and is limping around as our number 1 for a few weeks on a bum ankle or knee, I can't even remember and our #4 goes out for the season in week 6 or so with an ankle injury that requires surgery. I'm not even going to get into the offensive lines flux of players and injuries and the crap protections for much of the year.

But it's not as if Randall Cobb just started facing good DB's and press coverage. I'm certain he's beat it before and will do it again. But it's not as easy with 1 good arm. I think too much was made over some issues last year because they made for good media fodder. Did our DB's have trouble separating? sometimes, but I guess on one good leg or with one good arm, it's not as easy. Toss in a qb that isn't looking your way when you do beat coverage and a line that is sporadic at best in its protections and everything is multiplied in how bad it looks.

We have a complex passing game and we were down to guys with no experience in it trying to run an offense with injuries everywhere. We can sustain a few misses and still roar as an engine. But take out that many pieces and continuously rotate thru guys all over the offense all year long and there is no continuity all year long. It started to fire near the end of the year. Had it started with everyone on the same page a few weeks earlier, I think our ending would have been different. We'll get to see this year though. I'm not worried about our passing game, unless of course we suffer the same injuries

 

[HardRightEdge]

Devil in the details .

Or is it "God is in the details", as Mies van der Rohe (among others) have put it. I prefer to think that God and the devil do battle in the details.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Or is it "God is in the details", as Mies van der Rohe (among others) have put it. I prefer to think that God and the devil do battle in the details.

As long as they can help the Packers score more points then their opponents each game, I'm fine with either of them getting it done!

 

[HardRightEdge]

As long as they can help the Packers score more points then their opponents each game, I'm fine with either of them getting it done!

Seriously, this clamoring for Jones has an element of closing the barn door after the cows got out.

I understand a concern about a repeat of having 2, 3, 4 guys at a position group being out with injuries or underperforming. But is it more likely this will be repeated in 2016 than having a similar issue at another position group? No.

I submit for consideration the following which should be of greater concern:

- Safety/Nickel: I'm surprised the Packers did not draft a safety, or at least bring in a handful of UDFAs instead of just one. Consider the safety/nickel group of Dix, Burnett, Hyde and Rollins. If 2 of those 4 went down, who graduates to safety/nickel starter? There is nobody currently on this roster you could count on. It gets worse. What if Randall or Shields goes down? You would want to think Rollins would be next man up. Now the safety/nickel spots are even more exposed.

To make matters worse, Hyde is in his contract year. There's a very good chance he'll be gone in FA. Then you'll be looking at inexperienced depth in 2017 in an even shallower safety/nickel group in a defense that's not exactly easy to learn (see M.D. Jennings).

- ILB: Ryan, Barrington, Martinez, and just some guys on the bubble. One is coming off an IR year and the other is a 4th. round rookie. What if 2 of those guys go down? I fear there's a scheme flexibility concept at work with Matthews as we see with Hyde in order to buy an extra roster spot. If that is the case, I simply say, "Jesus H. Christ, when are you gonna learn?"

But it's early.

So while your concerns are not entirely unjustified, there are more acute issues to worry about, if you're inclined to worry at all at this juncture, but in the end you cannot cover all possible unknown contingencies.

If one really needs to worry about something, then worry about the Vikings.

 

[tynimiller]

HRE ^^^^^^ DING DING DING!!! It all boils down to WR is the flashy "noticeable" position. No one cares about other positions outside RB/QB/WR until it is too late.

Safety injury wise is our weakest spot in my opinion....or ILB as it is unproven with a rookie and 1 year guy and an injured recovery case holding it down.

 

[Vrill]

Minnesota will go only as far as Teddy takes them. I'm not sold on him as a QB who can lead them on a deep playoff run. He seems really limited in his throws. Anything beyond 10 yards seems to be a struggle with him.

 

[HardRightEdge]

HRE ^^^^^^ DING DING DING!!! It all boils down to WR is the flashy "noticeable" position. No one cares about other positions outside RB/QB/WR until it is too late.

It's a double whammy. (1) The Packers have won most frequently when simply outscoring opponents, even if it's not necessarily a durable concept. (2) Fantasy football has eroded appreciation for good defense.

The QBs on display in this last Super Bowl should have been instructive. Or how about losing the division to Minnesota, or what Seattle does with Wilson who is limited in throwing the football.

I would not suggest the Packers change the offensive formula. But there is a likelihood that sooner or later you need the defense to step up and close out a game.

 

[tynimiller]

It's a double whammy. (1) The Packers have won most frequently when simply outscoring opponents, even if it's not necessarily a durable concept. (2) Fantasy football has eroded appreciation for good defense.

The QBs on display in this last Super Bowl should have been instructive. Or how about losing the division to Minnesota, or what Seattle does with Wilson who is limited in throwing the football.

I would not suggest the Packers change the offensive formula. But there is a likelihood that sooner or later you need the defense to step up and close out a game.

I did love the focus on D we saw this year, just surprised we didnt grab a flyer on a S....I fully expect at some point next year we grab on in the draft.

 

[HardRightEdge]

Minnesota will go only as far as Teddy takes them. I'm not sold on him as a QB who can lead them on a deep playoff run. He seems really limited in his throws. Anything beyond 10 yards seems to be a struggle with him.

It's been many a moon since I've been much concerned about the division competition going into a season. I'm maybe the last guy to worked up about a Bears or Vikings game just because they are the Bears or Vikings. This isn't the 1970's or 1980's...sights should be set higher.

Last year I said I would not be surprised if MIN would win 10 games, based on how they closed out 2014, but they would not be a threat to the division title. Half right, half wrong. I see them as improved, so the typical division assessment has a different look to me for the first time in quite a while.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

HRE ^^^^^^ DING DING DING!!! It all boils down to WR is the flashy "noticeable" position. No one cares about other positions outside RB/QB/WR until it is too late.
.

Agreed. The thing we currently have going for us in GB is #12 and that takes a lot of heat off the need to have the top WR's and RB in the league to win. But last year should have showed that we at least need a really good #1 WR and a decent RB in order for AR to do what he does best. Now maybe our offensive issues last year could be blamed on injuries and "bad luck", but one can't help but wonder just how potent #12 and the Packer offense would be with Adrian Peterson in the backfield and Nelson and Megatron lining up wide. We can only hope a retooled Lacy, a healthy Jordy and the remaining WR's bring the offense back to its pre 2015 form.