Going For 2

[Daryl Muellenberg]

If they do it in other sports, wouldn't it be a given they are doing it in the NFL too?

But your honor, other people steal stuff so the defendant has to be guilty too.

So who are 'they'? I assume you are referring to Vegas since that is what you have claimed before. What evidence is there that Vegas has fixed other sports? I realize that there are individuals (like basketball referees) that may try and fix games but they do it for personal gain. I highly doubt Vegas would be involved in fixing games.

 

[Croak]

But your honor, other people steal stuff so the defendant has to be guilty too.

So who are 'they'? I assume you are referring to Vegas since that is what you have claimed before. What evidence is there that Vegas has fixed other sports? I realize that there are individuals (like basketball referees) that may try and fix games but they do it for personal gain. I highly doubt Vegas would be involved in fixing games.

In the other major sports, it involved organized crime. I doubt Vegas would have anything to do with organized crime.

 

[CashInFist]

But your honor, other people steal stuff so the defendant has to be guilty too.

So who are 'they'? I assume you are referring to Vegas since that is what you have claimed before. What evidence is there that Vegas has fixed other sports? I realize that there are individuals (like basketball referees) that may try and fix games but they do it for personal gain. I highly doubt Vegas would be involved in fixing games.

Las Vegas fixes games. There is no question is there really at this point?

 

[Daryl Muellenberg]

In the other major sports, it involved organized crime. I doubt Vegas would have anything to do with organized crime.

Organized crime is more than likely involved somehow, since it was organized crime that created Vegas in the first place, but that doesn't have to mean that they fix games. But you are free to believe what you want, but until there is proof I won't believe that Vegas fixes NFL games.

 

[Daryl Muellenberg]

Las Vegas fixes games. There is no question is there really at this point?

Yes, there is a big question. What proof is there? All you have is speculation - nothing else. I have already shown that Vegas makes a lot of money legally without taking the risk of fixing games.

 

[CashInFist]

Yes, there is a big question. What proof is there? All you have is speculation - nothing else. I have already shown that Vegas makes a lot of money legally without taking the risk of fixing games.

Ok. Here's where I am at atm. I'm not arguing it any more. OK? lol

 

[TJV]

Las Vegas fixes games. There is no question is there really at this point?

Of course there is, otherwise you wouldn't have posted this:

No I have no evidence. It's just what I believe.

How do you believe it works? Who do you believe is in on it in the NFL?

If there was evidence, then it wouldn't be a conjecture.

So your argument is you believe it because there's no evidence for it? In other scandals there is usually disputed evidence. Here there is absolutely nothing showing Vegas is fixing NFL games.

 

[CashInFist]

Of course there is, otherwise you wouldn't have posted this: How do you believe it works? Who do you believe is in on it in the NFL?So your argument is you believe it because there's no evidence for it? In other scandals there is usually disputed evidence. Here there is absolutely nothing showing Vegas is fixing NFL games.

Dude, if you watch and study the game for that, there is unlimited ammo to validate my opinion. It's just not worth it. Honestly.

 

[TJV]

Dude, if you watch and study the game for that, there is unlimited ammo to validate my opinion. It's just not worth it. Honestly.

Dude, then why did you say you have no evidence? And if there is "unlimited" ammo, just give us two or three examples of how the NFL is "a rigged game by Las Vegas".

 

[adambr2]

Sorry, there is no way this is the case, for 2 main reasons.

1) As others have pointed out, the NFL and Vegas already make money hand over fist. They are not going to risk their entire enterprise.

2) The complexity of what it would take to pull this off goes far beyond a feasible means. You're talking about involving numerous officials and /or players from crews and teams all over the league. One leak from any of them or from any of the people they've undoubtedly told, or one disgruntled ex employee, is all it would take to blow the cover off the entire thing. The fact that that hasn't happened should be proof enough.

I'm not going to say that in the entire history of the NFL that at some point there hasn't been some crooked official who took a bribe, but the idea that Vegas fixes games is just obviously not true.

 

[Crockett&Tubbs]

I clicked into here to discuss the decision to not go for the 2-PAT win at Arizona.
Is the title incorrect?

 

[Croak]

I clicked into here to discuss the decision to not go for the 2-PAT win at Arizona.
Is the title incorrect?

No, you clicked on the right thread to discuss the old bones of the 2 point ad infinitum. I just took a strand from a post and led it off into a rabbit trail.....bad moderator, bad bad boy. I don't know if the games are fixed. I know of at least 7 years worth of them for one team that cheated their way through.

But for any other foil hat wearers in the rubber room next to mine; https://sports.vice.com/en_us/article/how-to-fix-an-nfl-game

 

[Claymaker]

People say the NBA is rigged, yet they just can't bring themselves to admit it with the NFL.

 

[TJV]

People say the NBA is rigged, yet they just can't bring themselves to admit it with the NFL.

"Admit" it? That word would only be appropriate if there was overwhelming proof of something and not only is that not the case regarding the NFL, there’s been no evidence presented here. I for one would gladly acknowledge it if convincing evidence to support that idea is presented. But individual teams cheating is not evidence the league is involved in rigging games. And it's not evidence "Vegas" is rigging games either. Do you have some evidence to support it? There was a poster here a while ago who believed Goodell is rigging games in collusion with owners, officials and some players. Are you on that bandwagon, too?

Here's a money making idea for all of you who believe in conspiracies with no evidence to support your belief: Get the names and contact information of as many like-minded people as you can find. That list would be gold for any scammer out there. As a matter of fact, I happen to know of a Nigerian Prince who just needs a contact in the U.S. to shower with money. All you have to do is send me him a small fee…

 

[Daryl Muellenberg]

People say the NBA is rigged, yet they just can't bring themselves to admit it with the NFL.

Yes, there was a basketball ref who resigned a while back because of an investigation of him betting on games that he officiated. That is an isolated case regarding an individual, it doesn't mean the NBA is rigged. It more than likely has happened in the NFL at one time or another, but again, that does not mean Vegas is involved in fixing games.

 

[Daryl Muellenberg]

Dude, if you watch and study the game for that, there is unlimited ammo to validate my opinion. It's just not worth it. Honestly.

You are right - it's not worth trying to prove your point because you have no proof, which you previously admitted. There is also another term for what you have been doing, it's called slander. I will stick with a little concept known as innocent until proven guilty. I would feel sorry for anyone on trial if they had you on the jury.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Wherever there is money to be made, there is going to be the chance of someone wanting to cheat to profit. So while there may be isolated incidences of corruption within individual businesses, rarely do you see it working successfully across the entire industry, especially for any length of time. Just the logistics of getting all on board and cooperating in such corruption in The NFL, Vegas, Washington, etc. is almost impossible to imagine.

 

[Croak]

"Admit" it? That word would only be appropriate if there was overwhelming proof of something and not only is that not the case regarding the NFL, there’s been no evidence presented here. I for one would gladly acknowledge it if convincing evidence to support that idea is presented. But individual teams cheating is not evidence the league is involved in rigging games. And it's not evidence "Vegas" is rigging games either. Do you have some evidence to support it? There was a poster here a while ago who believed Goodell is rigging games in collusion with owners, officials and some players. Are you on that bandwagon, too?

Here's a money making idea for all of you who believe in conspiracies with no evidence to support your belief: Get the names and contact information of as many like-minded people as you can find. That list would be gold for any scammer out there. As a matter of fact, I happen to know of a Nigerian Prince who just needs a contact in the U.S. to shower with money. All you have to do is send me him a small fee…

TJV is right. There is no actual proof at this time; only circumstantial things that make someone wonder. It is interesting that the NFL lawyers have successfully, so far, argued that the NFL is not 32 sports teams competing for one prize, but one whole entertainment entity. Hmmmm.... Then, when the second half of the Cardinals/Packers game came up, the NFL used a screen size banner that said; "Act 2"...hmmmm. Since they are "entertainment" they can legally determine the directions of the games if they so wish. http://thefixisin.net/legal.html

Do they at this point? We don't know until someone is investigated and caught. But the FBI stopped investigating that stuff. Hmmmm. So to bring this all back around with what TJV will obviously think is an absurd notion; what if the 2 point decision was affected by something outside of the game itself? Evidence; none. Plausible; yes. We may never know.

 

[Poppa San]

Hmmmm. So to bring this all back around with what TJV will obviously think is an absurd notion; what if the 2 point decision was affected by something outside of the game itself?

Like the button under the bar at Buffalo WildWings hooked to the shock collar around Mrs. MM's 'favorite toy'?

 

[TJV]

TJV is right. There is no actual proof at this time; only circumstantial things that make someone wonder. It is interesting that the NFL lawyers have successfully, so far, argued that the NFL is not 32 sports teams competing for one prize, but one whole entertainment entity. Hmmmm....

Really? That’s what you think is evidence that games are fixed? NFL lawyers argue that the league is one entertainment entity to avoid the application of the Sherman Antitrust Act. What would happen if the NFL were deemed to be 32 individual entities competing for one prize? There couldn’t be a draft. The richest owners could throw as much money as they’d like at college players. The “top 20” players could sign with one team. There couldn’t be a salary cap. There would be no restrictions whatever on spending. Paul Allen could spend $500M or more in a single season if he choose to do so. The NFL couldn’t negotiate TV contracts, each team would make their own deal. Teams in small markets could get 1/10th of the TV money as teams in large markets - or less. Because if each team is an entity unto itself the current structure of the NFL would mean competitors are colluding with each other in the market place, a violation of antitrust laws. Within a short period of time, only the richest teams would be able to compete. The Packers would have zero chance of competing and would fold. The current NFL would be no more. Hmmmm... Lucky for us, the Supreme Court has ruled on the current status of the NFL in American Needle, Inc. v National Football League. They’re no doubt in on the conspiracy too, right?

Do they at this point? We don't know until someone is investigated and caught. But the FBI stopped investigating that stuff. Hmmmm. So to bring this all back around with what TJV will obviously think is an absurd notion; what if the 2 point decision was affected by something outside of the game itself? Evidence; none. Plausible; yes. We may never know.

That the FBI stopped investigating is evidence against your point of view, or is James Comey and several FBI agents part of the conspiracy, too? And you finish with what of course is an absurd/foolish notion. You are alleging that someone outside the game somehow communicated to McCarthy not to go for 2? Really? Then you must also think this mysterious person arranged to have the Packers D not sack Palmer and Randall not cover Fitzgerald in OT, right? And of course McCarthy and the players were fine with this because... .... No. That idea, in the complete absence of a single fact to back it up is in no way plausible.

Alleging things with no evidence would be analogous to a neighbor of yours going to the police with the allegation that you are a thief and *********. Evidence; None. Plausible; Well you have a lot of stuff and you've been seen you around children. That’s what you’re doing here: There’s no evidence whatever yet.

 

[Croak]

Really? That’s what you think is evidence that games are fixed? NFL lawyers argue that the league is one entertainment entity to avoid the application of the Sherman Antitrust Act. What would happen if you had your way? There couldn’t be a draft. The richest owners could throw as much money as they’d like at college players. The “top 20” players could sign with one team. There couldn’t be a salary cap. There would be no restrictions whatever on spending. Paul Allen could spend $500M or more in a single season if he choose to do so. The NFL couldn’t negotiate TV contracts, each team would make their own deal. Teams in small markets could get 1/10th of the TV money as teams in large markets - or less. Because if each team is an entity unto itself the current structure of the NFL would mean competitors are colluding with each other in the market place, a violation of antitrust laws. Within a short period of time, only the richest teams would be able to compete. The Packers would have zero chance of competing and would fold. The current NFL would be no more. Hmmmm... Lucky for us, the Supreme Court has ruled on the current status of the NFL in American Needle, Inc. v National Football League. They’re no doubt in on the conspiracy too, right?That the FBI stopped investigating is evidence against your point of view, or is James Comey and several FBI agents part of the conspiracy, too? And you finish with what of course is an absurd/foolish notion. You are alleging that someone outside the game somehow communicated to McCarthy not to go for 2? Really? Then you must also think this mysterious person arranged to have the Packers D not sack Palmer and Randall not cover Fitzgerald in OT, right? And of course McCarthy and the players were fine with this because... .... No. That idea, in the complete absence of a single fact to back it up is in no way plausible.

Alleging things with no evidence would be analogous to a neighbor of yours going to the police with the allegation that you are a thief and *********. Evidence; None. Plausible; Well you have a lot of stuff and you've been seen you around children. That’s what you’re doing here: There’s no evidence whatever yet.

You see the problem here is that this is largely an argument from silence both ways. I can't prove there was any outside influence on the game and no one else can prove definitively there wasn't. It is all up in the air. As Joe Namath said; it doesn't take much to influence a game one way or the other. So as I said; we don't know. I can't say it was rigged. But I also can't say it wasn't. But either way is plausible.

After all is said and done, outside influence isn't totally unthinkable. http://www.sandiegoreader.com/news/2012/jul/04/citylights1-nfl-dirty-secret/

 

[CashInFist]

There is no proof, or they would already be prosecuted. Look how AWFUL the refs are in EVERY game in the NFL. Why can't the biggest money making sport in the world hire competent referees? Sounds so simple right? Yet they don't. Why is that? Honestly?

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

There is no proof, or they would already be prosecuted. Look how AWFUL the refs are in EVERY game in the NFL. Why can't the biggest money making sport in the world hire competent referees? Sounds so simple right? Yet they don't. Why is that? Honestly?

Because it isn't a perfect science. I hear that said about every major Sport. I may not agree with the refs at times, but for the most part they do a pretty good job IMO. I think we all saw what happens when they aren't working in the NFL and "the next best bunch" is brought up to take their place. Fail Mary anyone?

It is an organization that strives to improve the quality of its product, but anytime someone is asked to make a judgement call in an instant, 1/2 the people probably won't agree with it.

 

[Daryl Muellenberg]

Since they are "entertainment" they can legally determine the directions of the games if they so wish. http://thefixisin.net/legal.html

I think you are taking the 'entertainment' part out of context. According to the article:

"One cannot fix a sporting event for gambling purposes; that is illegal. And one cannot fix an intellectual contest for entertainment purposes; that was made illegal after the quiz show scandal of the 1950s.

But fix a sporting event for entertainment purposes? Completely legal. "

Once gambling becomes involved it is no longer considered 'just entertainment'.

 

[Daryl Muellenberg]

You see the problem here is that this is largely an argument from silence both ways. I can't prove there was any outside influence on the game and no one else can prove definitively there wasn't. It is all up in the air.

In this case, you are suggesting that the NFL/Vegas is committing a crime by fixing games. According to the law, you are the one who has to provide proof of this, no one has to provide proof that they don't. Back to innocent until proven guilty, not guilty until proven innocent.