Fire Joe Barry -- Updated -- he's gone

[Dantés]

And yet (correct me if I’m wrong) wins and losses are awarded based on the team that scores more points than their opponents … LOL

You're not following what I'm saying so probably save your chuckles.

If you limit scoring by allowing points slowly instead of quickly, your low scoring defense is artificial. I'll try and be clear.

-The Packers faced the lowest number of opposing drives in the league (173) for two reasons:

1) Opponents averaged 2:59/drive, the 3rd highest total in the league.
2) GB itself averaged 2:54/drive on offense, the 7th highest total in league.

-Fewer drives will always equal lower total points; if teams combine for 18 offensive drive instead of 24, that's just fewer opportunities for anyone to score.

-The effect cuts both directions-- a defense that dies slowly but allows a lot of points per drive will allow less overall scoring at the cost of giving their own offense fewer chances while allowing opposing teams to maximize their opportunities.

-If you haven't caught on yet, this approach does not contribute positively towards wins.

Conclusion: Points/Drive is a more accurate measure of defensive performance. Barry's soft approach to defense means teams score by running more plays and burning more clock, which limits the chances of both teams.

Example:

There's 6 minutes left in a half and the opposing team is starting a drive. If they score a field goal in 3:30, then GB's offense has plenty of time to try and score themselves. Maybe they score a FG and the net impact is 0. Maybe they score a TD and the net impact is +4.

But if the defense allows a field goal drive of 5:30, then the impact is -3. Even though the opponent scored the same number of points, doing it over a longer period of time hurt the Packers' chance to win because it removed their opportunity to answer the drive before time ran out.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

They also get the NFC West and the AFC South.

Right, but those are common opponents (with NFC North teams) and were known a long time ago.

Really hard to predict how good or bad each team will be in the next season. Off season trades, draft picks, free agency, injuries, etc. can change a lot of things. As can in-season things such as development, trades, momentum and injuries. So while we know our opponents, trying to size up the wins and losses right now is a crap shoot at best.

 

[Schultz]

And yet (correct me if I’m wrong) wins and losses are awarded based on the team that scores more points than their opponents … LOL

Correct me if I am wrong, but scoring more points than your opponent is a cumulative effort of the entire team.

 

[Half Empty]

Correct me if I am wrong, but scoring more points than your opponent is a cumulative effort of the entire team.

Semantics, semantics, but 2011 immediately pops up as a time when the Pack only scored more than the other guys (except once to eliminate a perfect record and once to exit the playoffs early) only because of the guys on the offensive side. The defensive effort was pretty close to non-existent.

 

[games]

One thing we don't know, is if there are issues outside of Barry, ie players attitudes? Was Alexander going rogue a sign of that? Of course, ultimately Barry is responsible for the defense, while he can't make the actual tackles, he can get his players ready to play and in position to do so. If players aren't disciplined enough, he needs to crack the whip. If players are taking plays off, he needs to do something to stop it.

Just got done watching a film breakdown of the Bears game. Jaire was the highest rated DB for the game in mid 70s. He had three plays in the first half where he was caught out of position, with one of the plays being a repeat of the Carolina game.

Packers are in man, Ja's guy goes in motion but Jaire doesn't follow him and just hopes someone on the other side will pick him up. Post snap, every other CB and LB is locked in man, except Jaire who's just taking up space.

Another play in man, Ja is lined up 5-6 yards off of DJ Moore, who is lined up outside the TE. At snap, TE runs at Jaire, while Moore cuts underneath. Because Ja is lined up too far off, he gets picked off, and Moore goes underneath to catch a crosser with Quay Walker (who had middle / spy duty) in hot pursuit. At this point, Packer nation is screaming "Fire Joe Barry" for Quay covering a WR. But THAT WAS JAIRE'S MAN, not Quay's.

Finally, with Bears in red zone, Packers call for three deep, where at snap, Ja is supposed get back to cover 1/3 of the end zone out to the corner. Ja drops back to about the 7 yard-line and ends up as "help" on a TE on an underneath route who was already covered by a LB. Meanwhile, DJ Moore was lined up on the right side, runs a slant toward the left side of the end zone where Jaire was supposed to be. Film suggests Fields saw Moore emerging from the middle of the field, but got sacked before he could get the ball off.

All those Jaire miscues occurred in the first half. Jaire was old Jaire in 2nd half and ended up with a fine PFF grade for the game. I don't know if he got some coaching at half or if he just righted the ship himself.

 

[milani]

You're not following what I'm saying so probably save your chuckles.

If you limit scoring by allowing points slowly instead of quickly, your low scoring defense is artificial. I'll try and be clear.

-The Packers faced the lowest number of opposing drives in the league (173) for two reasons:

1) Opponents averaged 2:59/drive, the 3rd highest total in the league.
2) GB itself averaged 2:54/drive on offense, the 7th highest total in league.

-Fewer drives will always equal lower total points; if teams combine for 18 offensive drive instead of 24, that's just fewer opportunities for anyone to score.

-The effect cuts both directions-- a defense that dies slowly but allows a lot of points per drive will allow less overall scoring at the cost of giving their own offense fewer chances while allowing opposing teams to maximize their opportunities.

-If you haven't caught on yet, this approach does not contribute positively towards wins.

Conclusion: Points/Drive is a more accurate measure of defensive performance. Barry's soft approach to defense means teams score by running more plays and burning more clock, which limits the chances of both teams.

Example:

There's 6 minutes left in a half and the opposing team is starting a drive. If they score a field goal in 3:30, then GB's offense has plenty of time to try and score themselves. Maybe they score a FG and the net impact is 0. Maybe they score a TD and the net impact is +4.

But if the defense allows a field goal drive of 5:30, then the impact is -3. Even though the opponent scored the same number of points, doing it over a longer period of time hurt the Packers' chance to win because it removed their opportunity to answer the drive before time ran out.

And part of the plan with such a young offense was to matriculate down the field rather than be the big strike offense of the Rodgers years. Now that may change in the next few years. And consider that we played some very inferior offenses this season. Even in a number of the games we lost.

 

[milani]

Right, but those are common opponents (with NFC North teams) and were known a long time ago.

Really hard to predict how good or bad each team will be in the next season. Off season trades, draft picks, free agency, injuries, etc. can change a lot of things. As can in-season things such as development, trades, momentum and injuries. So while we know our opponents, trying to size up the wins and losses right now is a crap shoot at best.

So we could play better as a team but still have a similar record due to the opponents.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

So we could play better as a team but still have a similar record due to the opponents.

You never know as to how good your own team will be or your opponents, was my point. One thing I do like about the NFL is its parity. Teams like the Lions and Texans can be terrible one year and then breakout the next. The salary cap, draft and free agency has a lot to do with that.

 

[weeds]

Joe doesn't seem to be named in any Head Coaching searches.

 

[games]

Joe doesn't seem to be named in any Head Coaching searches.

I see JB's name being mentioned all the time on coaching threads on X. Odd that it seems to be from a disproportionate number of posters from Wisconsin...

 

[milani]

You never know as to how good your own team will be or your opponents, was my point. One thing I do like about the NFL is its parity. Teams like the Lions and Texans can be terrible one year and then breakout the next. The salary cap, draft and free agency has a lot to do with that.

And injuries can seriously damage an entire season for even the best teams. Think of Cousins, Burrows, Daniel Jones among others this season.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Joe doesn't seem to be named in any Head Coaching searches.

Check the local pee wee football News. They are clamoring to hire a guy with his credentials.

 

[Poppa San]

Check the local pee wee football News. They are clamoring to hire a guy with his credentials.

Didn't Mike Sherman end his career coaching HS football? or was it a JC?

 

[Poppa San]

Just realized that by finishing second in the North, the Packers 3 "random" games in 2024 will be @ Eagles (2nd in NFC East) and home against the Saints (2nd in NFC South) and Dolphins (2nd in AFC East).

This would have been a good time for you to read our existing thread about it: https://www.packerforum.com/threads/2024-schedule.85318/

 

[Magooch]

Joe doesn't seem to be named in any Head Coaching searches.

He doesn’t seem to be named in any coaching searches, period, for that matter. I don’t see any other team out there right now hoping to poach our DC to be their own…

 

[milani]

This would have been a good time for you to read our existing thread about it: https://www.packerforum.com/threads/2024-schedule.85318/

Good update! Your respect level just ascended two levels!

 

[Poppa San]

Good update! Your respect level just ascended two levels!

I didn't want this thread to get derailed for 3 pages discussing something we have a thread about.

 

[AKCheese]

You're not following what I'm saying so probably save your chuckles.

If you limit scoring by allowing points slowly instead of quickly, your low scoring defense is artificial. I'll try and be clear.

-The Packers faced the lowest number of opposing drives in the league (173) for two reasons:

1) Opponents averaged 2:59/drive, the 3rd highest total in the league.
2) GB itself averaged 2:54/drive on offense, the 7th highest total in league.

-Fewer drives will always equal lower total points; if teams combine for 18 offensive drive instead of 24, that's just fewer opportunities for anyone to score.

-The effect cuts both directions-- a defense that dies slowly but allows a lot of points per drive will allow less overall scoring at the cost of giving their own offense fewer chances while allowing opposing teams to maximize their opportunities.

-If you haven't caught on yet, this approach does not contribute positively towards wins.

Conclusion: Points/Drive is a more accurate measure of defensive performance. Barry's soft approach to defense means teams score by running more plays and burning more clock, which limits the chances of both teams.

Example:

There's 6 minutes left in a half and the opposing team is starting a drive. If they score a field goal in 3:30, then GB's offense has plenty of time to try and score themselves. Maybe they score a FG and the net impact is 0. Maybe they score a TD and the net impact is +4.

But if the defense allows a field goal drive of 5:30, then the impact is -3. Even though the opponent scored the same number of points, doing it over a longer period of time hurt the Packers' chance to win because it removed their opportunity to answer the drive before time ran out.

And yet we don’t keep score that way LOL They go by OUR points vs THEIR points.

But I guess you could also look at other factors such as starting field position (huge) , how much rest the defense had between drives, how many starters were out due to injury, calls that were eventually found to be incorrect by the league, unforced penalties by the opposing team, MISSED penalties by the officials, weather impacts yadda yadda yadda yadda ….. yadda. End of the day the defenses job is to keep the other team from scoring. This year the Green Bay Packer defense did that better than 22 other teams. Like I said, I could care less if Barry comes back or not - I couldnt pick him out of a police lineup. A) his dismissal is not a sure thing and B) only reason I care one way or another would be to see the exploding heads and slit wrists here if he indeed comes back! LOL

 

[RRyder]

And yet we don’t keep score that way LOL They go by OUR points vs THEIR points.

But I guess you could also look at other factors such as starting field position (huge) , how much rest the defense had between drives, how many starters were out due to injury, calls that were eventually found to be incorrect by the league, unforced penalties by the opposing team, MISSED penalties by the officials, weather impacts yadda yadda yadda yadda ….. yadda. End of the day the defenses job is to keep the other team from scoring. This year the Green Bay Packer defense did that better than 22 other teams. Like I said, I could care less if Barry comes back or not - I couldnt pick him out of a police lineup. A) his dismissal is not a sure thing and B) only reason I care one way or another would be to see the exploding heads and slit wrists here if he indeed comes back! LOL

That was a very long winded way of saying you don't understand that points per drive is a way more important stat for a defence then points per game.

Like WAY more important

 

[Sunshinepacker]

You previously stated this:



I was just giving you scenarios that would probably result in Barry keeping his job.

Now I am going to play Devils Advocate and use the same logic as you have used when you claim it was a mistake to draft Jordan Love, since in your eyes, another player probably would have taken us to a SB. Let's say MLF listened to all of us at midseason and fired Barry. Would a new DC have been able to step right in and instantly improve things? Would the Packers have ended the year at 9-8? We will never know the answer to that, but I am 99% sure you will say "anyone would have been better than Barry". Would you fire Barry today?

One thing we don't know, is if there are issues outside of Barry, ie players attitudes? Was Alexander going rogue a sign of that? Of course, ultimately Barry is responsible for the defense, while he can't make the actual tackles, he can get his players ready to play and in position to do so. If players aren't disciplined enough, he needs to crack the whip. If players are taking plays off, he needs to do something to stop it.

Anyway, yeah, I think most of us, myself included, thought it was time for Barry to go 2 years ago, but this season sadly may have bought him another year. What does Gute and MLF see in Barry that keeps him in GB? I don't know, but I sure hope we see it in the next 4 games (of this season).

Sarcasm is wasted on the Internet...

 

[AKCheese]

That was a very long winded way of saying you don't understand that points per drive is a way more important stat for a defence then points per game.

Like WAY more important

The game is decided by our points per game vs their points per game. If they ever start awarding wins based on points per drive - get back to me LOL

 

[RRyder]

The game is decided by our points per game vs their points per game. If they ever start awarding wins based on points per drive - get back to me LOL

I'm sure you think you made some kind of rebuttal there (you didn't)

But by all means continue to "lol" as if you think your just owning everyone and not showing a complete lack of understanding

 

[AKCheese]

I'm sure you think you made some kind of rebuttal there (you didn't)

But by all means continue to "lol" as if you think your just owning everyone and not showing a complete lack of understanding

Im not rebutting anything. Games are decided by how many points the Packers score as opposed to how many points their opponent score. I think thats a pretty irrefutable fact. (If I’m wrong there feel free to rebut). Therefore I think how many points a defense allows its opponents to score is pretty key. If others think something else is important thats fine. I’ll take the defense that allows very few points - until they start keeping score a different way. LOL (sorry)

 

[Dantés]

Im not rebutting anything. Games are decided by how many points the Packers score as opposed to how many points their opponent score. I think thats a pretty irrefutable fact. (If I’m wrong there feel free to rebut). Therefore I think how many points a defense allows its opponents to score is pretty key. If others think something else is important thats fine. I’ll take the defense that allows very few points - until they start keeping score a different way. LOL (sorry)

Say our offense scores 35 points on long drives, dominates the time of possession 40 to 20, and only gives the opponent 7 possessions to try and score.

And then say our offense scores 35 points on short drives, loses the time of possession 27 to 33, and gives the opponents 12 possessions to try and score.

Are both of those outcomes equally likely to lead to a win?

 

[AKCheese]

Also - semantics perhaps but are points per drive the same as points per posession? Because the number of posessions should be pretty equal