Fire Joe Barry -- Updated -- he's gone

[Mondio]

So let's be reasonable with this and not unreasonable. I'm merely illustrating how greats, even established greats, still chose to commit to practicing. Folks blaming not attending some workouts and OTAs and such for the failings of Rodgers and the season are ignorant...however it is also ignorant to pretend additional work, reps, hand signals, discussions while guys are absorbing the playbook, NFL pace or Green Bay style (free agents) would not have made at minimum some positive returns.

I am firmly in the camp of not having Rodgers back, but IF he is back I'd love to see him show just how dedicated to this endeavor he is and obtaining another ring by showing up when he doesn't need to some or showing up when many don't think he will.

so you agree, there's a point where it doesn't matter a whole lot, we just disagree on what that point is. OTA's are for rookies, new team hires, and vets who need a health check. That's what gets done.


All of those new guys missed more time in season than Rodgers missed of OTA's. Let's debate how important OTA's are more.

 

[tynimiller]

so you agree, there's a point where it doesn't matter a whole lot, we just disagree on what that point is. OTA's are for rookies, new team hires, and vets who need a health check. That's what gets done.


All of those new guys missed more time in season than Rodgers missed of OTA's. Let's debate how important OTA's are more.

Doesn't matter a whole lot for Rodgers FULLY agree I said as much originally. However his attending them potentially expedites all relationships with his weapons a tiny bit, small bit, decent bit, a lotta bit, or massively.

Not to mention also it shows a massive lack of commitment IMO to the guys and team that has made you THE highest paid QB. I mean be a freaking leader and prioritize a small amount of time and be present. Even if you just swing in, be around, private workouts anything. I'm not in the camp of the extreme one way, because like I said that is ignorance illustrated, but writing it off as if it would be of no value is just as much ignorance illustrated.

 

[Mondio]

Doesn't matter a whole lot for Rodgers FULLY agree I said as much originally. However his attending them potentially expedites all relationships with his weapons a tiny bit, small bit, decent bit, a lotta bit, or massively.

Not to mention also it shows a massive lack of commitment IMO to the guys and team that has made you THE highest paid QB. I mean be a freaking leader and prioritize a small amount of time and be present. Even if you just swing in, be around, private workouts anything. I'm not in the camp of the extreme one way, because like I said that is ignorance illustrated, but writing it off as if it would be of no value is just as much ignorance illustrated.

While it can, I don't believe it affects it all that much obviously or I wouldn't be defending it. I don't think Rodgers has relationship problems on this team. I think almost to a man they really respect and work hard for their QB. Even the Finley's and Jennings' did while they were here.

From the little stories we hear now and again, like the Jolly one that came out years after he was here, or the Nixon one this year i would bet much more on Rodgers making real efforts and real time and commitment to building those relationships.

I don't think a single one of them think anything about him not being at OTA's because he builds relationships in other ways thru real intention at other times. IT's how he operates in everything. I also think they see day 1 when he's there, he's no slacker, he's intensely driven and works as hard as anybody and that's the expectation.

I don't believe for a second anything is happening in OTA's that requires a player like Rodgers to be there. IT's for rookies, new hires and health checks.

 

[tynimiller]

While it can, I don't believe it affects it all that much obviously or I wouldn't be defending it. I don't think Rodgers has relationship problems on this team. I think almost to a man they really respect and work hard for their QB. Even the Finley's and Jennings' did while they were here.

From the little stories we hear now and again, like the Jolly one that came out years after he was here, or the Nixon one this year i would bet much more on Rodgers making real efforts and real time and commitment to building those relationships.

I don't think a single one of them think anything about him not being at OTA's because he builds relationships in other ways thru real intention at other times. IT's how he operates in everything. I also think they see day 1 when he's there, he's no slacker, he's intensely driven and works as hard as anybody and that's the expectation.

I don't believe for a second anything is happening in OTA's that requires a player like Rodgers to be there. IT's for rookies, new hires and health checks.

Relationships 100% are formed more off the field, timing and non-verbal cues/body reading however cannot be built off the field is the primary issue I have personally which is why I don't agree with him just not being there.

It's also a personal thing for me...**** I get paid next to nothing relative to him vs my job...but I'm 2nd in command and technically don't have to be here as much as I am, do as much as I do or proactively try and teach my employees....but I see it as a responsibility of my role to do that. My effort and output should only be outdone by one person (my boss) if anyone.

 

[Magooch]

I think the trouble is that the argument often gets construed as either "If Rodgers had attended OTAs it would've made a massive positive difference on our season" vs "Rodgers not attending OTAs had absolutely zero impact whatsoever one way or the other". Not saying either of you specifically FWIW but it does seem to often head that way. Of course the truth is probably somewhere in the middle.

Yes it's true that we lost a handful of games by just one possession. And it's true that we only missed the playoffs by one game. But I also don't think you can really look at that and conclude that we could change one or two plays/possessions in any of those games and then assume the rest of the game(s) would've played out exactly as they had. Maybe if Rodgers goes to OTAs he does get more in sync with one of our young guys and maybe that does lead to one extra touchdown scored in one of those one-possession games that we lost. But perhaps our opponent responds differently to that touchdown as well. There's just no way to say with any confidence how it would've played out.

Anyways I am generally of the mind that while I'm sure it wouldn't have hurt anything (and probably can only really be a positive impact overall) I remain unconvinced it would've changed anything in our W/L totals and ultimately that's what matters at the end of the day. I'm sure someone would know better than I, but how much exactly of OTAs are dedicated specifically to position-group meetings/runthrough/etc? I assume the entirety of OTAs would not have just been Rodgers and his WRs conferencing and doing walkthroughs the entire time. Given that there were only 9 days of OTAs to begin with, I'd be curious exactly how much of this time would've went to work between the QB and WRs in the first place.

But anyways. I'm also repeating myself a bit here... At the start of OTAs you had in the WR room Amari Rodgers, Cobb, Winfree, Watkins, Taylor, Danny Davis, Toure, Lazard, and I believe Watson and Doubs had not yet signed right at the start but were there still. But by the time you got to cutdowns in August that was reduced to Am. Rodgers, Cobb, Watkins, Toure, Doubs, Lazard, and Watson as your 'final' WR room (unless you are of the opinion that Rodgers going to OTA with Winfree/Taylor/Davis etc would've resulted in one of them making the final roster ahead of others, which I sincerely doubt). Lazard and Watkins were absent from OTAs as well, and I think it is fair to say that Cobb has already built up a fairly decent rapport with Rodgers that probably didn't stand to benefit much from working OTAs with him. So ultimately we are left with Am. Rodgers, Toure, Doubs, and Watson.

Of that bunch...Watson missed the final three OTAs and much of the remainder of the offseason with injury, so in his case we are talking at most just six practice-days. And I said it before...I don't think it was a chemistry issue that led to Watson dropping that week 1 sure-fire TD, nor would it suggest that Rodgers didn't trust him enough to make the throw in the first place. Watson also dealt with a couple of injuries over the course of the season before hitting his stride late as well, so I guess what I'm asking is...do those six days of OTAs with Rodgers really make a significant positive impact on the time between Watson's week-1 drop, subsequent injuries, and late-season emergence?

Amari Rodgers, of course, was a healthy mid-season release. Again I seriously doubt that working with Rodgers in OTAs would've changed anything here as it was pretty clear very early that he was for all intents and purposes not considered a legitimate option on offense really.

And then there is Doubs, who arguably had the most promising start of the young bunch but ended up missing what...4, 5 weeks with injury himself? Again I won't deny that perhaps those nine days would've had a positive impact but I'd also wager that it would have probably been outweighed by his long-term injury.

That leaves just Toure, who was very much a fringe player who barely played this season.

So again I'm not saying there wouldn't have been any positives whatsoever but I guess at the same time I'm asking...who do we specifically think would've benefitted the most here and in what way do we think it would've had an appreciable (W/L) impact? I agree that it's a bad "look" and when you've just got 50m and all sorts of concessions made to bring you back it sure would look nice to put in that extra effort, but at the end of the day I'm not sure our season would've gone any differently had Rodgers attended. I think our issues are a lot, LOT deeper than 6-9 days of OTAs could ever hope to solve in any meaningful way.

OF course, this is pretty far off-topic for "Fire Joe Barry" at this point, lol.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

So again I'm not saying there wouldn't have been any positives whatsoever but I guess at the same time I'm asking...who do we specifically think would've benefitted the most here and in what way do we think it would've had an appreciable (W/L) impact?

Nice post. Speaking only for myself, I have never implied that Rodgers needed the work for only Rodgers. The guy is an awesome QB, he doesn't need extra work for himself, but he and his offense need work together. I noticed you only talked about WR's, but he has an influence over the entire offense, as well as the team. As many of us have pointed out, it really isn't "oh they would have been THIS much better, had he attended OTA's, because nobody knows that variable. However, as I asked last week and nobody answered, how would him attending OTA's make the team worse?

Football is not just X's and O's and execution of plays, it has a lot of team chemistry and comradery to it. Overall, just a bad look when a guy that was dicking around with his decision on his and the teams future, for 2 straight off-seasons, takes a new $50+Mil per year restructure and then blows off OTA's.

 

[Schultz]

Actually the do run the routes and go over the nomenclature of the plays, and deal with the concepts, and even signals at the line of scrimmage, during the early camps. It's up to the players, after that camp, to digest all the information and come into the mandatory camp ready to run the plays. That's when they straighten out any misconceptions the new people have, and show the changes that they want for experienced pros as well. To blow that first camp off is just plain stupid, regardless of what anyone thinks. You need to learn the system, then go over it to insure you've got it right, then arrive in fall camp ready to actually practice, not sit around scratching your head as to what your job is. To get there, you need to go over all of it with the people who will actually be playing the positions on the field, during the season.

For the life of me, I can't understand why nobody understands this. It takes time to learn what needs to be done on the field.

To you and Poker. IMO there is a chance that Rodgers going over his reads and expectations with the new guys that early just adds to what they need to learn at OTA's. The routes, the plays, where to stand in the huddle, formations, where the mess hall is, who the trainers are, the weight room, equipment manager etc. etc. Now I do buy the AR being there and getting to know the guys could have a subtle positive impact argument. On the other hand he would probably bond with someone they are going to cut and we have seen that story before.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

To you and Poker. IMO there is a chance that Rodgers going over his reads and expectations with the new guys that early just adds to what they need to learn at OTA's. The routes, the plays, where to stand in the huddle, formations, where the mess hall is, who the trainers are, the weight room, equipment manager etc. etc. Now I do buy the AR being there and getting to know the guys could have a subtle positive impact argument. On the other hand he would probably bond with someone they are going to cut and we have seen that story before.

Neither of those 2 "negatives" would sway my opinion of the benefits of having Rodgers at OTA's VS him vacationing in Hawaii with his GF, while his teammates work hard for the coming season.

I could counter both. What happens when Rodgers shows up for mandatory practices and is running things a bit different than the other QB's did? Time to relearn with Rodgers nuances? Does Rodgers showing up for the first time distract the new players? Your bonding theory is interesting, since most of the guys that Rodgers has bonded with, are guys that made it to preseason and beyond. Never heard him complain of a guy that was only at OTA's getting cut.

 

[Mondio]

OF course, this is pretty far off-topic for "Fire Joe Barry" at this point, lol.

Who's this Barry character?

 

[Sanguine camper]

Packers have choked since 2011

Been many coaches and players that have changed

This isnt just on MLF

MLF has shown that he can't get the team prepared for big games. The bigger the game, the worse they play. You're right that the choking started before he got to GB but its his job to turn that around.

 

[Sanguine camper]

Who are they

Vic Fangio, Jimmy Leonhard and even Mike Zimmer. It wouldn't be too difficult to add to this list but the fact is, there are upgrades to Barry and MFL needs to improve the team.

 

[Cornelius Weems]

Well said. I don't recall the date it happened, but with the NFLPA and owners agreeing to practice less, every opportunity that the team is allowed by rules to get together, mandatory or not, is just that much more important. Toss in this idea, that seems to have been installed by many teams, including the Packers, of not playing a lot of starters during preseason and that work becomes just that much more important.

I'm tired of hearing "the season just started, the Packers need some time to jell." Really? It just started for the other teams too and they whipped our asses! Fans used to complain about Favre having his own locker away from players and his waffling for a few years on to retire or not to retire. Some of those same fans are probably now defending Rodgers yearly offseason antics.

In the day and age that a guy is paid $50M to lead a team, if he can't find the time or desire to show up at optional practices or meetings, even if it is just to hang out and get to know the new guys, I'm totally underwhelmed by his team mentality and hope he never mentions "this team needs to jell better."

No  this is well said, every team needs to "jell" why is that hard to understand. This GBP looked like one of the teams that "jelled" the least. This offensive squad was most definitely off more than on. Heck, even the Jags seemed on than we were most of the time. @tynimiller is 100% correct, missing (most) OTA's and the preseason showed AR's lack of commitment. Everyone knew this season was going to be different, you can't lose what is essentially your top 3 WR threat's, for it not to be very apparent. He pulled what was essentially "I got my bag" and said "get on my level" to everyone else. This whole team let everyone down, but I can't believe that he gave 100% out there. This whole season was a letdown, and AR was one of the players that let me down the most.

 

[Mondio]

It sounds nice, but teams aren't jelling in May. Blame your coaches for not playing a preseason series because that would do more to get these guys up to game speed than rookie orientation at OTA's 5 months before a real game is played.

They aren't gelling either then

 

[thequick12]

They had better go get Jim Leinhard, this Barry is staying sht better be a joke

 

[GBkrzygrl]

I'm sure I'm repeating myself but I've always said the simplest question regarding a coach - are they getting the most out of the players at their disposal? Great coaches are able to bring out a product that's greater than the sum of its parts. Good coaches are able to get their players performing right about where you'd expect them to be based on talent/potential. Bad coaches produce a result that's less than the sum of its parts, one that fails to live up to its talent/potential.

Can anyone really say Barry would meet the criteria for "great" or even "good" in that sense? You could make an argument that Barry has been given the most "expensive" defense in the league when you consider both money spent (12th in '22 and 4th in '23 defensive spending overall) and draft capital invested, but I think you'd be hard-pressed to make an argument that Joe Barry has given us a product that's anywhere near living up to that billing.

Too bad ML doesn't give Jerry Gray a chance. He sure lit a fire under his players.

 

[thequick12]

Jerry Gray is an excellent coach, they gotta give somebody else a chance

Sounds like Nathaniel Hackett is coming back. I do think the huge loss of coaching talent the Packers suffered this past offseason had a lot to do with the product on the field

 

[melvin dangerr]

Vic Fangio, Jimmy Leonhard and even Mike Zimmer. It wouldn't be too difficult to add to this list but the fact is, there are upgrades to Barry and MFL needs to improve the team.

I think we get screwed again and Barry stays, as well as ST coach, MLF and gute will not pick these sores off this team

 

[melvin dangerr]

Packers have choked since 2011

Been many coaches and players that have changed

This isnt just on MLF

Your right, I don’t see a lot of management turnover

 

[Mondio]

They had better go get Jim Leinhard, this Barry is staying sht better be a joke

I'm hoping his "I anticipate" comment just meant, we haven't let him go yet and after they have their meetings and review things they decide it's best that Barry leaves to "pursue other interests" or something along those lines.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

I think we get screwed again and Barry stays, as well as ST coach, MLF and gute will not pick these sores off this team

Besides getting off to a bit of a rocky start early in the season, I think the Special Teams units did quite well and I am glad that ST Coach Rich Bisaccia is being retained. I am just curious, what did you see or read that made you want him gone?

 

[swhitset]

so you agree, there's a point where it doesn't matter a whole lot, we just disagree on what that point is. OTA's are for rookies, new team hires, and vets who need a health check. That's what gets done.


All of those new guys missed more time in season than Rodgers missed of OTA's. Let's debate how important OTA's are more.

On its face… I agree with your argument. However, as I’ve mentioned before, Im more about his level of commitment. On the one hand, he wants to only show up when it’s mandatory, On the other, he wants to be treated like one of the coaches/ and or management. He wants to be consulted about draft picks, free agent signings, Play calls etc… I actually agree that as the team‘s QB he should be involved in those things to a much greater degree than the other players. I also thinks this gives him a greater responsibility to the team. Showing up to things like OTA’s, while not required would justify his position a little more. To me this isn‘t about whether or not his physical presence at OTAs would have made any difference… its more about whether or not he is truly “all in” mentally and truly committed to the success of the team. Personally, I‘m not convinced that he is anymore.

 

[Mondio]

On its face… I agree with your argument. However, as I’ve mentioned before, Im more about his level of commitment. On the one hand, he wants to only show up when it’s mandatory, On the other, he wants to be treated like one of the coaches/ and or management. He wants to be consulted about draft picks, free agent signings, Play calls etc… I actually agree that as the team‘s QB he should be involved in those things to a much greater degree than the other players. I also thinks this gives him a greater responsibility to the team. Showing up to things like OTA’s, while not required would justify his position a little more. To me this isn‘t about whether or not his physical presence at OTAs would have made any difference… its more about whether or not he is truly “all in” mentally and truly committed to the success of the team. Personally, I‘m not convinced that he is anymore.

and that's ok.

I on the other hand think he'd like to be able to have a voice to his FO, I disagree that he wants to be at the level of management or decide who stays, who goes etc. I think that's mostly media fluff.

I don't think any new guys even had time to notice Rodgers wasn't around their head is swimming already at OTA's and if any did have this notion their QB wasn't intensely driven or committed those thoughts get erased in about 15 seconds when they step on the field for their first practice.

 

[rmontro]

It sounds nice, but teams aren't jelling in May. Blame your coaches for not playing a preseason series because that would do more to get these guys up to game speed than rookie orientation at OTA's 5 months before a real game is played.

I do think the team started to jell as the season went on. if we got to start the season over at around game #13, we likely get into the playoffs. But the offense still stinks, and we're not jelling into a real Super Bowl contender, we need more pieces.

I'm hoping his "I anticipate" comment just meant, we haven't let him go yet and after they have their meetings and review things they decide it's best that Barry leaves to "pursue other interests" or something along those lines.

My guess is Barry stays for at least another year. I don't think they'll want to get rid of him when it was a bad year for the team overall. The defense was no worse than the offense. The whole team was mediocre.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Don't get me wrong, I would have preferred Rodgers to show up for OTAs as well. But, I'm absolutely convinced him skipping those voluntary practices didn't have any effect on the Packers record this season at all. Therefore I consider it a non-issue.

As a side note, I think it's funny Brady gets mentioned as an example for how to handle things while completely ignoring he took an 11-day vacation during training camp this season.

Finally I would not release Nijman from the team, he should have a permanent place on the practice squad, because that man needs a LOT of practice

What??? Nijman is headed towards becoming a free agent, the Packers need to re-sign him to retain him.

Too bad ML doesn't give Jerry Gray a chance. He sure lit a fire under his players.

Jerry Gray is an excellent coach, they gotta give somebody else a chance

Sounds like Nathaniel Hackett is coming back. I do think the huge loss of coaching talent the Packers suffered this past offseason had a lot to do with the product on the field

Gray didn't have a lot of success for the most part as a defensive coordinator either.

 

[lambeaulambo]

Leonhard turned the DC job down already. Pretty sure they won't ask him again. Watch Barry's pressers. He is a cheerleader. Zone doesn't win anything. Need a DC that is going to light a fire and not be afraid to bring some heat. The last DC that was above avg was 25 years ago. I think they have the pieces on this D to be top 5. When Alexander is playing off 10 yards due to the call something is being overlooked. A good DC would've looked at guys like Lowry and cut them.