"Fans"Wanting A Staples Easy Button

[cheesey]

Uh...pyle...Smokin' Joe had a LONG injury history. Murphy came to us with a clean injury slate and then got injured. How you do not understand the difference is amazing.

Must like to argue.

Digs.......i was thinking the SAME thing. You can't compare the two. To do so isn't being honest with the situation. Murphy obviously had talent, and had he NOT had that unknown spinal condition, would VERY likely been a HUGE part of the offense for years to come. NO ONE could have known about that. He didn't even know it himself! Johnson was a KNOWN HUGE injury risk.

 

[Lare]

I guess I'm just too realistic to take part in some of these threads.

So many people seem to base their opinions and arguments on maybes, could bes, could haves, could have beens, might bes, might haves, might have beens, should bes, should haves, should have beens, would bes, would haves, would have beens, etc., etc., etc.

And in reality none of us, or even TT and/or MS for that matter, have much control over what has happened or will happen in the future.

In my simplistic opinion;

1. Injuries are going to happen. They're nobody's fault.

2. Some players are going to step up and become real NFL players, regardless of where they were drafted or how much they were paid. And the opposite is also true.

3. GMs & HCs will ultimately be judged by the performance (and resulting record) of their team. They can have all the high draft picks, FAs, talent, speed, potential, dedication and coaching in the world and if they don't win on the football field they will be held responsible.

In other words, I will judge guys like TT and MM on one thing, the performance and record of the Packers. If they give me a winner I'll drive to Green Bay every snowfall and shovel their driveway. Give me a loser and I will criticize them for it.

IMO, there are no acceptable excuses for failure in the NFL. No matter what excuses you come up with, others have faced worse situations and still found a way to win.

 

[Packnic]

i agree with most of that Lare.

my main reason for arguing any of this, is that i dont want a negative image around the organization. I hate the red sox with all my heart. their fans are miserable, they lose and they whine for years and years. then they win and all they wanna do is complain about how it was just one year.
Green Bay is a winning organization and there is no reason to lower your heads. The only thing whining and hating the management crew is gonna do, is get the media attention. which in turn makes us look like an organization in turmoil. Not to mention fans have a factor in creating a losing culture. The more pressure the fans put, the harder it is for teams and managment to succeed. Not to say we shouldnt pressure, we just cant curse every move they make. Do we really wanna look like the lions??? with fire TT signs.

the reason to be a fan is to enjoy the team of your choice, not to be miserable and downtrodden about every little managerial decision.

now go out and win one for the gipper.

 

[Lare]

I think we're arguing two separate topics here Packnic. I agree there's right ways and wrong ways to express one's opinions on the team. Coming here and saying "Fire TT" is a whole lot different than holding up a sign saying the same thing at Lambeau for a nationally televised game.

What I'm saying is that everyone seems to be making excuses to justify their opinion. "TT couldn't do this because of the salary cap, Sherman couldn't do that because of injuries, etc."

Sorry but having been a Packer fan for over 50 years I've lived through a lot of years of excuses. Next year was always going to be better, we would have won if this player wasn't hurt, just one more player and we'd have been a winner.

But I've learned that that's all they ever were, excuses. Every successful coach, GM and player that I've ever seen in the NFL was someone that didn't accept excuses.

If some people want to give TT and/or MM 2, 5 or 10 years to prove they're capable of producing a winner, hey, knock yourself out! Personally, I think you can get a pretty good idea most of the time after two years.

Without a doubt, we'll all have a much better idea of our current Packers managment team after this year.

 

[pyledriver80]

I guess I'm just too realistic to take part in some of these threads.

So many people seem to base their opinions and arguments on maybes, could bes, could haves, could have beens, might bes, might haves, might have beens, should bes, should haves, should have beens, would bes, would haves, would have beens, etc., etc., etc.

I agree Completely Lare.

GMs & HCs will ultimately be judged by the performance (and resulting record) of their team. They can have all the high draft picks, FAs, talent, speed, potential, dedication and coaching in the world and if they don't win on the football field they will be held responsible.

Unless you are 4-5 members on this forum. A team that loses 12 games should be ridiculed. A team that loses 12 games and comes out the next year with 2 rookies on the o-line, a rookie head coach with no HC experience, and plays that game with no emotion is embarrassing.

In other words, I will judge guys like TT and MM on one thing, the performance and record of the Packers. If they give me a winner I'll drive to Green Bay every snowfall and shovel their driveway. Give me a loser and I will criticize them for it.

Don't do that Lare, you will be critcized. You are supposed to make excuses for everything. I'm sorry, I live in Cleveland Browns territory and I have seen excuses and "rebuilding phases" for 28 years. When you settle for mediocrity, thats what you get.


If TT can put a winning product on the field I will support him. Unfortunately, He has yet to do so and starting 2 rookie guards and looking flat and emotionless in the pre-season is not a good sign.


It's easy. you do well, you get praise. You stink it up, you get criticized. To bad excuses are easier for some. That's why this world is the way it is. Start holding people accountable, or watch it erode.

 

[DakotaT]

I guess I'm just too realistic to take part in some of these threads.

So many people seem to base their opinions and arguments on maybes, could bes, could haves, could have beens, might bes, might haves, might have beens, should bes, should haves, should have beens, would bes, would haves, would have beens, etc., etc., etc.

I agree Completely Lare.

GMs & HCs will ultimately be judged by the performance (and resulting record) of their team. They can have all the high draft picks, FAs, talent, speed, potential, dedication and coaching in the world and if they don't win on the football field they will be held responsible.

Unless you are 4-5 members on this forum. A team that loses 12 games should be ridiculed. A team that loses 12 games and comes out the next year with 2 rookies on the o-line, a rookie head coach with no HC experience, and plays that game with no emotion is embarrassing.


[quote:q1qd7i9d]In other words, I will judge guys like TT and MM on one thing, the performance and record of the Packers. If they give me a winner I'll drive to Green Bay every snowfall and shovel their driveway. Give me a loser and I will criticize them for it.

Don't do that Lare, you will be critcized. You are supposed to make excuses for everything. I'm sorry, I live in Cleveland Browns territory and I have seen excuses and "rebuilding phases" for 28 years. When you settle for mediocrity, thats what you get.


If TT can put a winning product on the field I will support him. Unfortunately, He has yet to do so and starting 2 rookie guards and looking flat and emotionless in the pre-season is not a good sign.


It's easy. you do well, you get praise. You stink it up, you get criticized. To bad excuses are easier for some. That's why this world is the way it is. Start holding people accountable, or watch it erode.[/quote:q1qd7i9d]
Pyle, how much accountability do you feel Mike Sherman has for last year's "to be ridiculed" 4-12 season? Now it's a simple question, not need to go into six paragraphs about rookie guards and everything else you usually spew. To make it easy for you, just offer a percentage.

 

[pack_in_black]

So, since our o-line is raw, we should have sold the farm to get some half-decent linemen who will age and be useless, wasted cap space in 2 years, forget about having depth in the future. Man, our offseason wasn't great, but every contender goes through a fough patch in the NFL. this is our time for it. kind of. i still think we have a great shot this year.

 

[pyledriver80]

The king of dodging askes me not to dodge, hmmmmm......


Well, according to you, all Sherman's wins were because of weak schedules, Brett Favre, Talent, stars aligning right, miracles, luck, and anything else other than good coaching.

MS should be held responsible for last year as well, though it's more on TT considering he has the ultimate decision whenit comes to personel. MS had to work with what was given. You know, Klemm,Whittacker,O'Dwyer,Little,Coston,etc.

Ultimately it came back on MS. Not surprisingly because TT had to find a scapegoat. It's funny that he gets rid of Sherman and then drafts 3 O-Lineman, LB's,etc. Why not stick MM with all these old guys he gave Sherman? If it was MS who was causing us to lose games, he is gone, No need to trade for 11 draft picks.


Before you start talking about accountability, please be advised that Sherman should be responsible for last year, BUT, in doing so you must give him credit for the winning years we had during his tenure. You can't blame him for last year, when he loses, and then turn around and make excuses for his exceptional career record. Can't have it both ways.

 

[pyledriver80]

So, since our o-line is raw, we should have sold the farm to get some half-decent linemen

Since when do you have to sell the farm to get a HALF-DECENT lineman? Hell we re-signed David Martin, blew cash on Earl Little and such but you have to sell the farm to get a decent O-Line that allows Brett time to throw the ball instead of getting sacked 3 straight plays? Brilliant Theory!

 

[DakotaT]

The king of dodging askes me not to dodge, hmmmmm......


Well, according to you, all Sherman's wins were because of weak schedules, Brett Favre, Talent, stars aligning right, miracles, luck, and anything else other than good coaching.

MS should be held responsible for last year as well, though it's more on TT considering he has the ultimate decision whenit comes to personel. MS had to work with what was given. You know, Klemm,Whittacker,O'Dwyer,Little,Coston,etc.

Ultimately it came back on MS. Not surprisingly because TT had to find a scapegoat. It's funny that he gets rid of Sherman and then drafts 3 O-Lineman, LB's,etc. Why not stick MM with all these old guys he gave Sherman? If it was MS who was causing us to lose games, he is gone, No need to trade for 11 draft picks.


Before you start talking about accountability, please be advised that Sherman should be responsible for last year, BUT, in doing so you must give him credit for the winning years we had during his tenure. You can't blame him for last year, when he loses, and then turn around and make excuses for his exceptional career record. Can't have it both ways.

King of Dodging - maybe dodging your BS Pyle. I've always said Sherman had a good regular season record. It is his playoff record that leaves the bad taste in my mouth and made me turn on him. I compare him to Denny Green, and you once used Sherman's name in the same breath with Bill Walsh. We have a broad range of perspectives.

At least I got you to finally admit that last year's debacle had something to do with Mr. Sherman. Thank you so much! Was that so hard?

You know Pyle, Sherman has a lot of redeaming qualities as a coach and moreso a man, which us 5 or 6 posters have said, but do you think TT might have a few good qualities as a GM, or are all of his moves anti-Pyle?

 

[porky88]

So, since our o-line is raw, we should have sold the farm to get some half-decent linemen

Since when do you have to sell the farm to get a HALF-DECENT lineman? Hell we re-signed David Martin, blew cash on Earl Little and such but you have to sell the farm to get a decent O-Line that allows Brett time to throw the ball instead of getting sacked 3 straight plays? Brilliant Theory!

GB would have to spend more money on an good offensive lineman than David Martin and Earl Little. I'm not sure but did Thompson resign Martin. Regardless, I think Martin is one of the biggest underachievers on the team.

Frankly I wanted Thompson to sign Tom Ashworth, play him at LG and I wanted someone young at RG. I personally wanted and still want to see Chris White get a shot. Missing out on Ashworth hurted. If you ask me, if GB would get just ONE solid offensive lineman like an Ashworth, you would see much better productions.

I also wouldn't of mind signing Ashworth (we had the money) and trading a 4th round pick for Jeff Faine and moving Scott Wells too RG.

Tauscher/Wells/Faine/Ashworth/Clifton

Too me that would help pave the way.

I think regardless of who Green Bay's GM was last year, they wouldn't of won many games because of injuries and past decisions that put GB 11 mil over the cap. I don't think GB was going too win a SB with Mike Sherman so I didn't mind the firing. I however think the McCarthy hiring was bold and risky. Jim Bates would've been my choice.

I'm pretty much waiting until Aaron Rodgers gets on the field before I judge Ted Thompson as a GM. If Roders looks like JP Losman next year (assuming Favre retires) then Thompson made a huge mistake with that pick. Ron Wolf made his move to get a franchise QB in Brett Favre, and he then signed Reggie White. Thompson's big move was drafting Aaron Rodgers and signing Charles Woodson. Next year in my opinion is all or nothing for Ted Thompson. If this team fails to make the playoffs in McCarthy's 2nd year, then a change in the front office might be needed.

Some may disagree with me, some may agree but ultimately I think Favre's last shot at a Super Bowl faded away when Freddie Mitchell caught a 4th and 26 pass from Donovan McNabb.

 

[all about da packers]

Porky, I agree with you completely about Bates, but digs and Z made a good point a while ago that Holmgren wasn't Wolf's first choice either. Ultimately, it is what it is.

As for the JP thing, IMO JP would be fine if he was presisted with, and knew he had full backing of the coaching staff. As long as A-Rod has that (TT and McCarthy will almost definitely back him), he will be fine in time. Of course he can't be expected to do what Favre has done in terms of winning games by himself right away, but I ultimately think he will get there.

 

[porky88]

Porky, I agree with you completely about Bates, but digs and Z made a good point a while ago that Holmgren wasn't Wolf's first choice either. Ultimately, it is what it is.

A little inside source, Ted Thompson's 1st choice wasn't Mike McCarthy. McCarthy was his 3rd choice after he interviewed him. His 1st was Brad Childress and his 2nd, Iowa Head Coach Kirk Ferentiz. Once Ferentiz said he wasn't going to interview for any NFL jobs and was going too sign an extension with Iowa, TT hired McCarthy about a few hours later.

 

[pyledriver80]

The king of dodging askes me not to dodge, hmmmmm......


Well, according to you, all Sherman's wins were because of weak schedules, Brett Favre, Talent, stars aligning right, miracles, luck, and anything else other than good coaching.

MS should be held responsible for last year as well, though it's more on TT considering he has the ultimate decision whenit comes to personel. MS had to work with what was given. You know, Klemm,Whittacker,O'Dwyer,Little,Coston,etc.

Ultimately it came back on MS. Not surprisingly because TT had to find a scapegoat. It's funny that he gets rid of Sherman and then drafts 3 O-Lineman, LB's,etc. Why not stick MM with all these old guys he gave Sherman? If it was MS who was causing us to lose games, he is gone, No need to trade for 11 draft picks.


Before you start talking about accountability, please be advised that Sherman should be responsible for last year, BUT, in doing so you must give him credit for the winning years we had during his tenure. You can't blame him for last year, when he loses, and then turn around and make excuses for his exceptional career record. Can't have it both ways.

King of Dodging - maybe dodging your BS Pyle. I've always said Sherman had a good regular season record. It is his playoff record that leaves the bad taste in my mouth and made me turn on him. I compare him to Denny Green, and you once used Sherman's name in the same breath with Bill Walsh. We have a broad range of perspectives.

At least I got you to finally admit that last year's debacle had something to do with Mr. Sherman. Thank you so much! Was that so hard?

You know Pyle, Sherman has a lot of redeaming qualities as a coach and moreso a man, which us 5 or 6 posters have said, but do you think TT might have a few good qualities as a GM, or are all of his moves anti-Pyle?

I do blame last year on MS to an extent. The FACT is however under MS we NEVER,NEVER,EVER,EVER,EVER had a 4-12 season until TT took over. It's cut and dry. Maybe MS had an off-year last year, it happens to every coach. I seem to remember Belichek having some struggles in Cleveland. One bad year after TT comes in and C-YA. Do you think that TT could have had anything to do with last year? No,No,No, Excuses,Excuses,Excuses


Now I will give credit to TT for what has happened already, not based on what COULD happen. No, I won't try to give him credit for Woodson, Pickett,Hawk,etc like you do because those things are yet to be decided.


TT made a good move bringing in Bates who transformed this Defense. Unfortunately he followed it up with an ignorant one when he didn't make him our HC. TT selection of Collins was solid. Unfortunately, 1 player does not make a good draft as you would try to lead some to believe. Getting rid of Hunt was much needed but then he re-signed David Martin.


Thats about all I can think of. You see I don't judge TT on what he COULD do but rather on what he HAS DONE.

 

[all about da packers]

Damn, thanks for the Info.

I'd heard actually that Childress was his first choice, and Bates was his second, and the deal was done except for the sticking point being Bates wanting to keep most of Sherman's O staff. That is when McCarthy was turned to. However, interesting note of Ferentiz.

Actually, I beleive Holmgren was the choice after Parcells and Marty Schot. Hopefully lightning strikes twice.

 

[Zero2Cool]

Actually, I beleive Holmgren was the choice after Parcells and Marty Schot. Hopefully lightning strikes twice.

True!

 

[digsthepack]

Ferentz is the perpetual tease as an NFL coach. He will eventualy make the jump, and whoever lands him will have a gem. But right now, he has the Hawkeyes running balls to the wall....why would you want to leave just when you are reaching the pinnacle of your collegiate coaching career. My money says he moves to the NFL concurrent to his current QB moving to the NFL.

 

[cheesey]

MS had the 4-12 season last year, NOT TT. TT did not run one pass route, miss a block, nothing. ALL he did was the draft, period.
That being said, only ONE team wins the Super Bowl each year. There are 31 losers.
Teams go through up and down years. NO ONE can stop that. You can't keep a top team for very long today, cause as soon as your players get good, someone offers them a boatload of money, and off they run. The ONLY team that did anything was the Patriots 3 out of 4 years. Now their team is being dismantled. How many ONE year SB winners have we had? Plenty. The NFL is NOT like it used to be. How many teams have never won a SB? Plenty.
I still think the Pack has as good a chance as any NFC North team this year.
So i choose to try to stay positive. If you don't want to, keep bashing Thompson if that makes you happy.

 

[DePack]

MS had the 4-12 season last year, NOT TT. TT did not run one pass route, miss a block, nothing.

Neither did MS. I'm not a TT basher but being 4-12 was a team thing. There is enough blame to go around for everyone. MS paid the price. TT did not.

 

[DakotaT]

MS had the 4-12 season last year, NOT TT. TT did not run one pass route, miss a block, nothing.

I'm not a TT basher .

NOOOO not you Depack!

Go look in the mirror, I think your nose is growing Pinnochio!

 

[cheesey]

MS had the 4-12 season last year, NOT TT. TT did not run one pass route, miss a block, nothing.

Neither did MS. I'm not a TT basher but being 4-12 was a team thing. There is enough blame to go around for everyone. MS paid the price. TT did not.

Yes, it WAS a "TEAM" thing. MS was in CHARGE of that team,TT was not, and to me made plenty of mistakes. The "team" had been able to overcome his mistakes till last year. Then it finally caught up with him. He made enough coaching and play calling errors in the past to earn his ticket out of GB. TT has not done that yet. IF he does, then i will say to give him his ticket out too. But he has NOT had the chance to prove or disprove himself yet.

 

[DePack]

MS had the 4-12 season last year, NOT TT. TT did not run one pass route, miss a block, nothing.

I'm not a TT basher .

NOOOO not you Depack!

Go look in the mirror, I think your nose is growing Pinnochio!

I think I've made it perfectly clear what I think about TT. Cheesy pointed out that TT did not run one pass route or miss a block. I pointed out that MS didn't either. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I have stated over and over that I am OK with the job TT has done SO FAR overall. He had a sh1tty first year and so far a good second season.

Keeping the TT nuttlickers in line is not a form of TT bashing, in my book.

 

[DakotaT]

TT nuttlickers! Nice one De.

 

[digsthepack]

DePack...not to get all scholarly on you or anything, but traditionally, nut has been spelled with only one "T".

But, speak more clearly......you mumble when you have Sherman's c@ck in your mouth!! LOL

Hell, you wouldn't know a pigskin from a ********! LOL

Now, remember the LOL rule, buddy!

Hey, are you now an empty nester for the upcoming school year?

 

[DePack]

DePack...not to get all scholarly on you or anything, but traditionally, nut has been spelled with only one "T".

Not when you have two nuts :lol:

Man, I'll let you know about the empty nest thing tonight. We dropped our son off Saturday and my daughter left this morning. I think we'll be OK. My wife and I have been practicing all week. Just last night at the dinner table we looked into each others eyes and she said "God, I hate you". I replied the only way I know how "I hate you more". :wink:


I think it will go good :shock: