Dillon.......keeping defenses honest.

[gopkrs]

Rodgers created this mess

What mess?

 

[AKCheese]

What mess?

No wide receivers? Cobb would start almost NOwhere… Lazard is a middle of the pack #3. If Rodgers hadnt pulled his stunt last spring resulting in his contract being redine TWICE in 8 months things could be very different. Honestly I think Rodgers at this point is more a deterrent than attractant to getting top talent coming to GB.

 

[kevans74]

No wide receivers? Cobb would start almost NOwhere… Lazard is a middle of the pack #3. If Rodgers hadnt pulled his stunt last spring resulting in his contract being redine TWICE in 8 months things could be very different. Honestly I think Rodgers at this point is more a deterrent than attractant to getting top talent coming to GB.

I think you're right.

However, it goes BOTH ways. The Packers FO drafted his potential presumed successor after he took them to the NFC championship game.

It's like going into work and saying, "Hey man I know you've been valuable and helped us grow XYZ the past 10+ years and were/are a very important piece to that growth and success, BUT this upcoming Spring we will be hiring this new intern/recent college grad who is YOUNGER and CHEAPER than you and he will be taking over your position/job in a couple years.

Again, you've done great things for us and you've mentioned before you love your job and would like to continue, BUT we just want this YOUNGER and CHEAPER guy to have your job. Hope that is ok with you."

 

[gopkrs]

No wide receivers? Cobb would start almost NOwhere… Lazard is a middle of the pack #3. If Rodgers hadnt pulled his stunt last spring resulting in his contract being redine TWICE in 8 months things could be very different. Honestly I think Rodgers at this point is more a deterrent than attractant to getting top talent coming to GB.

oh yee of little faith

 

[Deleted member 6794]

For Tonyan, I feel like eventually you have to find a Grey area between production and "what can he do the next 3-4 years?"

He's 27-28 and if he puts up another 50/600/8+, I believe he is Top 10 TE and worth around $10M annually

If he can replicate that for the next 3 to 4 years, wouldn't you say he's worth it?

If Tonyan puts up 1,000 receiving yards and some touchdowns I would be fine with paying him $10 million a season. I wouldn't be in favor of offering him such a deal if he doesn't eclipse the numbers you suggested though.

No wide receivers? Cobb would start almost NOwhere… Lazard is a middle of the pack #3. If Rodgers hadnt pulled his stunt last spring resulting in his contract being redine TWICE in 8 months things could be very different. Honestly I think Rodgers at this point is more a deterrent than attractant to getting top talent coming to GB.

Adams left because it was his lifelong dream to play for the Raiders. Gutekunst has ignored the wide receiver position for most of his tenure. Yet it's Rodgers fault the team lacks talent at the position

 

[PikeBadger]

Every player in NFL history eventually gets his replacement drafted. THAT's the GM's responsibility to ensure a steady flow of incoming fresh young talent. I don't understand why the fantasy football aficionados can't come to grips with this fact of life.

Edit: this was in response to Kevans74 post #453.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Every player in NFL history eventually gets his replacement drafted. THAT's the GM's responsibility to ensure a steady flow of incoming fresh young talent. I don't understand why the fantasy football aficionados can't come to grips with this fact of life.

Edit: this was in response to Kevans74 post #453.

Some of us can keep saying, like we did right after the pick, "We might not have liked it, but Gute had legit reasons for drafting Love". However, no matter how many times you/we say that, as time goes by, some people still don't (want to) hear it. Then as the crystal ball begins to reveal new information, not only do those people not want to acknowledge the situation, they want to say/imply that it was a big factor in the Packers not winning Super Bowls.

 

[Poppa San]

I think you're right.

However, it goes BOTH ways. The Packers FO drafted his potential presumed successor after he took them to the NFC championship game.

It's like going into work and saying, "Hey man I know you've been valuable and helped us grow XYZ the past 10+ years and were/are a very important piece to that growth and success, BUT this upcoming Spring we will be hiring this new intern/recent college grad who is YOUNGER and CHEAPER than you and he will be taking over your position/job in a couple years.

Again, you've done great things for us and you've mentioned before you love your job and would like to continue, BUT we just want this YOUNGER and CHEAPER guy to have your job. Hope that is ok with you."

It's not unique to sports
AT&T, Learn to Code,

But it was tough for Kirwin, 36, to relish his final assignment: training a group of programmers from India who would replace him within a year.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Some of us can keep saying, like we did right after the pick, "We might not have liked it, but Gute had legit reasons for drafting Love". However, no matter how many times you/we say that, as time goes by, some people still don't (want to) hear it. Then as the crystal ball begins to reveal new information, not only do those people not want to acknowledge the situation, they want to say/imply that it was a big factor in the Packers not winning Super Bowls.

What is that new information you're talking about that Gutekunst would have needed a crystal ball for??? The ones of us who criticized the Packers selecting Love pointed to the fact that there was no need for it as the team had a HOFer starting who repeatedly mentioned that he wanted to play into his 40s and Love might end up not playing any meaningful snaps for all of his rookie deal. What has changed up until now???

 

[Voyageur]

Every player in NFL history eventually gets his replacement drafted. THAT's the GM's responsibility to ensure a steady flow of incoming fresh young talent. I don't understand why the fantasy football aficionados can't come to grips with this fact of life.

Edit: this was in response to Kevans74 post #453.

Except for Jim Brown, and Barry Sanders, to my knowledge. Both walked at a time when their respective teams didn't believe they needed anything but a serviceable back up for them.

But, your point is very true, especially in today's market, with cap issues coming into play.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

But, your point is very true, especially in today's market, with cap issues coming into play.

I think we are have seen the importance of this with several teams this year. Let's face it, had Jordan Love blew the doors off of everyone, the Packers may have decided they would prefer trading Rodgers vs making him the highest paid player in the league. While it is hard to stockpile star players at high paying positions, it is going to be hard for teams to have top 5 paid guys at all of the expensive positions (QB, WR, LT, OLB, CB). Had the Packers paid Davane and eventually Jaire and Gary, they would have been close to doing that.

 

[tynimiller]

FTR....I argue WR is the ONLY positional group that we will enter 2022 with a "no argument weaker" group than we did in 2021.

Secondary Defense is much better with Jaire back, Stokes in year two, Rasul re-signed, Savage looking to bounce back and Amos being Amos...that's before we add a piece or two in draft possibly (also Keisean Nixon is good bottom depth)

Defensive Line - Keke and Lancaster gone...Reed is in, Lowry played solid last year, Clark is still here and Slaton entering year two as is Heflin. We probably add a piece too.

EDGE/OLB - Garvin was growing, Smith and Gary are back....with most likely a FA or draft pick added the group that is arguably same as last season now - will be better.

ILB - We return our two biggest, could potentially see a draft of another...we not worse.

Offensive Line - Simply having Bakh fully healthy and Myers places us better than we ended arguably. No doubt not done and could see a veteran Kelly type signing and no doubt we could even see a potential interior starter or RT starter drafted....we will be better most likely.

TE - Tonyan is healthy and back. That alone increases the room there and many Deguara, Dafney and Davis all showing progress enter another season here.

RB - Hill was looking like a big play guy will be back, Taylor excelled at chances and the dynamite duo Jones/Dillon are ready to ride.

QB - Enough said.

WR - Lost Davante, MVS and EQSB. The only position group that no matter what we do will start arguably worse...there is a chance that as a whole it could have a higher potential than last...but there is nothing we can do to give it a higher floor IMO.


All that said, we are better across the board except one position....with Rodgers as our QB. We are contenders again for yet another season.

 

[kevans74]

For WR, I look at it this way....

Davante is probably the Top WR in the NFL, and *MAY* be for another 1 to 2 years.... not a shot at Davante, but he is turning 30 soon and I don't see him as an athletic freak like Calvin Johnson, who may still be able to run a 4.4 40-yard dash today.

MVS, I've mentioned in other threads that I'm happy for, but I don't really see him as a "$10M/yearly" type of guy or WR. Good for him though.

But WOULD it be arguably worse if Gute and the FO found a way to get ANY 2 of:
Julio
AJ Green
Landy
Metcalf
Cooks
Emmanuel Sanders
few other veteran WRs via Free Agency OR Trade (I don't feel like looking them all up but you get the idea)
*2 solid to very good veteran WRs who can CATCH and are SMART enough to learn the playbook, know zone coverage, etc...and can probably run block.

AND

Got a rookie WR in Round 1 or Round 2 (maybe even 2 rookie WRs)

??? It's subjective because obviously no one is as good as Davante, but would we be better with 2-3 really good WRs or 1 VERY, VERY good WR.

Further, for TE, we have Tonyan coming back and I'd like the idea of Rudolph potentially signing

Don't forget that Aaron Jones and AJ Dillon can catch too, whether it be screens, swings, in the flat, etc...

So would we really be a lot WORSE if that happened?

 

[tynimiller]

For WR, I look at it this way....

Davante is probably the Top WR in the NFL, and *MAY* be for another 1 to 2 years.... not a shot at Davante, but he is turning 30 soon and I don't see him as an athletic freak like Calvin Johnson, who may still be able to run a 4.4 40-yard dash today.

MVS, I've mentioned in other threads that I'm happy for, but I don't really see him as a "$10M/yearly" type of guy or WR. Good for him though.

But WOULD it be arguably worse if Gute and the FO found a way to get ANY 2 of:
Julio
AJ Green
Landy
Metcalf
Cooks
Emmanuel Sanders
few other veteran WRs via Free Agency OR Trade (I don't feel like looking them all up but you get the idea)
*2 solid to very good veteran WRs who can CATCH and are SMART enough to learn the playbook, know zone coverage, etc...and can probably run block.

AND

Got a rookie WR in Round 1 or Round 2 (maybe even 2 rookie WRs)

??? It's subjective because obviously no one is as good as Davante, but would we be better with 2-3 really good WRs or 1 VERY, VERY good WR.

Further, for TE, we have Tonyan coming back and I'd like the idea of Rudolph potentially signing

Don't forget that Aaron Jones and AJ Dillon can catch too, whether it be screens, swings, in the flat, etc...

So would we really be a lot WORSE if that happened?

It’s floor vs ceiling discussion. There is a real legit chance the floor of our WR room is higher, but our ceiling much lower.

 

[kevans74]

It’s floor vs ceiling discussion. There is a real legit chance the floor of our WR room is higher, but our ceiling much lower.

How do you know? Do you know who they plan to take at WR in Rounds 1 to 3?

I am pretty sure they will take AT LEAST 1 WR in those rounds, could be 2. What if 1(or both if they take 2) of those guys become the next Justin Jefferson, Chase, etc. Even the next Davante, Jordy, Jennings, Jones,etc.

How do you know what the ceiling is?

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

But WOULD it be arguably worse if Gute and the FO found a way to get ANY 2 of:
Julio
AJ Green
Landy
Metcalf
Cooks
Emmanuel Sanders

Just my opinion, but if you add 2 of anyone off that list, couple them with a first round rookie and the current WR's, you have probably improved your WR group from the last few years. With the following caveats. They (the 2 FA's) stay relatively as healthy as Adams did and their chemistry with Rodgers doesn't take more than 3 0r 4 games.

The health and age issue is why some of those guys are still free agents.

 

[tynimiller]

How do you know? Do you know who they plan to take at WR in Rounds 1 to 3?

I am pretty sure they will take AT LEAST 1 WR in those rounds, could be 2. What if 1(or both if they take 2) of those guys become the next Justin Jefferson, Chase, etc. Even the next Davante, Jordy, Jennings, Jones,etc.

How do you know what the ceiling is?

Personally, there is not collection of rookies or FAs currently on the market that would place the TOP ceiling of our room higher than it was with Adams.

I don't need to know for me to safely say that. Could they arguably end the 2022 season with better play and production than we had when Adams was here? Possibly, I'm not saying anything definitively other than Adams elevates our top better than any rookie or FA.

It could also be said the group as a whole for 2022 may very well end up being better than past few years...that is the part that is unseen as of yet.

 

[kevans74]

Just my opinion, but if you add 2 of anyone off that list, couple them with a first round rookie and the current WR's, you have probably improved your WR group from the last few years. With the following caveats. They (the 2 FA's) stay relatively as healthy as Adams did and their chemistry with Rodgers doesn't take more than 3 0r 4 games.

The health and age issue is why some of those guys are still free agents.

That was the point of my post

 

[Don Barclay]

FTR....I argue WR is the ONLY positional group that we will enter 2022 with a "no argument weaker" group than we did in 2021.

I agree if you're talking about last year on the field -- but in terms of the groups on the roster, I disagree that Edge stands pat or improves -- the loss of Z Smith isn't gonna be offset by a rookie. Now, Z didn't really play last year, so fair play if that's where you're looking; but no doubt that room's talent in 2022 isn't gonna measure up to Smith, Smith, Gary.

 

[kevans74]

Personally, there is not collection of rookies or FAs currently on the market that would place the TOP ceiling of our room higher than it was with Adams.

I don't need to know for me to safely say that. Could they arguably end the 2022 season with better play and production than we had when Adams was here? Possibly, I'm not saying anything definitively other than Adams elevates our top better than any rookie or FA.

It could also be said the group as a whole for 2022 may very well end up being better than past few years...that is the part that is unseen as of yet.

Yeah but the point is it's IMPOSSIBLE to know lol.

Otherwise, why did a guy like JJ got number 22 overall???

If you redo that draft, he is EASILY Top 5. It's impossible to know

 

[tynimiller]

I agree if you're talking about last year on the field -- but in terms of the groups on the roster, I disagree that Edge stands pat or improves -- the loss of Z Smith isn't gonna be offset by a rookie. Now, Z didn't really play last year, so fair play if that's where you're looking; but no doubt that room's talent in 2022 isn't gonna measure up to Smith, Smith, Gary.

Yup, talking about on the field -

 

[Don Barclay]

Yup, talking about on the field -

Problem here is, if in 2022 we have one injury to this group like we had last year w/Z, then you're looking at Jonathan Garvin, starting Edge....yeesh. Hoping for a serious win in the draft here, and that Reed makes big waves on the interior. Feels like a dicey position group (definitely not as dicey as WR!!)

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Personally, there is not collection of rookies or FAs currently on the market that would place the TOP ceiling of our room higher than it was with Adams.

No doubt, there won't be a WR that will be better on the team than Adams, but since you don't just play 1 WR at a time (on most plays), you have to look at overall talent. So with our returning trio of Cobb, Lazard and Rodgers. I can see Cobb possibly being more comfortable in the offense and having a better year. Lazard, still room for development, I don't think we have seen his best yet. Rodgers, nothing but up. So just those 3 guys alone, might up the room a bit. Then you look at FA's and rookies. As a collective whole, if that is 3 players, I think you have a group of 6 WR's that potentially are better than the 6 that were on the roster to start 2021. Maybe not in game 1, but by game 4 or 5.

The big caveat and the one that won't make the above come true, is the chemistry between Rodgers and any new WR. If that doesn't develop quickly enough, it could be a long season.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Problem here is, if in 2022 we have one injury to this group like we had last year w/Z, then you're looking at Jonathan Garvin, starting Edge....yeesh. Hoping for a serious win in the draft here, and that Reed makes big waves on the interior. Feels like a dicey position group (definitely not as dicey as WR!!)

They will fortify the OLB with a rookie. I am less worried about that position than WR, RT, S, DL and CB. Gary and Smith were very capable last year and Gary is getting better every season. As far as depth, it is hard to pay for 3 top OLB's, so you hope your rookie, and 2nd or 3rd year guys step up.

I also think having 2 decent ILB's, a really good secondary and a solid DL, makes your OLB's just that much better.

 

[Schultz]

FTR....I argue WR is the ONLY positional group that we will enter 2022 with a "no argument weaker" group than we did in 2021.

Secondary Defense is much better with Jaire back, Stokes in year two, Rasul re-signed, Savage looking to bounce back and Amos being Amos...that's before we add a piece or two in draft possibly (also Keisean Nixon is good bottom depth)

Defensive Line - Keke and Lancaster gone...Reed is in, Lowry played solid last year, Clark is still here and Slaton entering year two as is Heflin. We probably add a piece too.

EDGE/OLB - Garvin was growing, Smith and Gary are back....with most likely a FA or draft pick added the group that is arguably same as last season now - will be better.

ILB - We return our two biggest, could potentially see a draft of another...we not worse.

Offensive Line - Simply having Bakh fully healthy and Myers places us better than we ended arguably. No doubt not done and could see a veteran Kelly type signing and no doubt we could even see a potential interior starter or RT starter drafted....we will be better most likely.

TE - Tonyan is healthy and back. That alone increases the room there and many Deguara, Dafney and Davis all showing progress enter another season here.

RB - Hill was looking like a big play guy will be back, Taylor excelled at chances and the dynamite duo Jones/Dillon are ready to ride.

QB - Enough said.

WR - Lost Davante, MVS and EQSB. The only position group that no matter what we do will start arguably worse...there is a chance that as a whole it could have a higher potential than last...but there is nothing we can do to give it a higher floor IMO.


All that said, we are better across the board except one position....with Rodgers as our QB. We are contenders again for yet another season.

I am expecting to be better at ST also. This current team has much less depth. Hopefully that is no longer true after the draft.