Clinton-Dix traded to Redskins

speakhands

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Rollins wouldn't have been a fit at free safety either.

I disagree. That's where his skill set should have put him, and it's where he was being projected as a prospect and where he was practicing largely in camp. His lack of foot speed makes him suboptimal as a cornerback, but his instincts, tackling, and ball skills make him well-suited for a safety position. The big concern is how much worse his foot speed got after his achilles injury.
 
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But if they bench HaHa, he's not putting anything on tape for other teams to want and it's not driving up his trade value, it's only driving it down.

The Packers could have benched Brice if they had a better option at free safety. The coaching staff not doing that indicates there isn't one though.

Can I assume that's a PFF number? Well, that's in the eye the beholder. And when you talk about a "hybrid ILB" do you count the sanps that make him a hybrid as ILB or S?

You're right that those numbers are from PFF. I have no idea how they count the snaps but here's detailled information on their take of Whitehead's alignment vs. the Rams:

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First, that $35 mil does not account for the fact that their current 2019 cap cost of about $154 mil is for only 38 guys currently under contract for 2019. Even if you filled out the 53 man roster with 15 minimum salary rookies the cap cost goes up about another $7.5 mil to $161.5 mil.

Interestingly, the NFLPA salary cap page shows the Rams are currently $560,000 over the cap.

According to the NFLPA's website the Rams are currently $450K under the cap.

I disagree. That's where his skill set should have put him, and it's where he was being projected as a prospect and where he was practicing largely in camp. His lack of foot speed makes him suboptimal as a cornerback, but his instincts, tackling, and ball skills make him well-suited for a safety position. The big concern is how much worse his foot speed got after his achilles injury.

Rollins wasn't considered to be a fit at safety coming out of college. It's a moot point as the Packers decided to release him though.
 

Mondio

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Or maybe they really like Brice and are willing to live with mistakes while he learns? Sharper wasn't good out of the box, Collins wasn't good out of the box etc. Fans were clamoring for BOTH to be replaced before they eventually became what they were. Other than some misplayed balls in a very young man's short career, he hasn't had much else to grip about. And physically he's as close to Nick Collins as anything we've had here in a long time. He makes mistakes, maybe he'll learn, maybe he won't. But just maybe, they're going to give him a chance to make mistakes and see how he responds because they like him?
 
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Or maybe they really like Brice and are willing to live with mistakes while he learns? Sharper wasn't good out of the box, Collins wasn't good out of the box etc. Fans were clamoring for BOTH to be replaced before they eventually became what they were. Other than some misplayed balls in a very young man's short career, he hasn't had much else to grip about. And physically he's as close to Nick Collins as anything we've had here in a long time. He makes mistakes, maybe he'll learn, maybe he won't. But just maybe, they're going to give him a chance to make mistakes and see how he responds because they like him?

Both Sharper and Collins proved in college to being capable of performing at a high level resulting in both being drafted in the second round.

Don't get me wrong, it's possible Brice develops into a decent player. My point was that if the Packers had another safety on the roster capable of playing at a level on par with Clinton-Dix the coaching staff would have given him snaps ahead of Brice this season.

With that obviously not having happened I highly doubt there's any player on the roster capable of adequately replacing HHCD.
 

Mondio

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Probably not, but there are probably things schematically they'll do to try and make it work. We've had safeties play more like DB's in the past, putting more DB's on the field to play that way isn't really a complete switch from what we've done fairly often in the past. I'm excited to find out, and I fully expect mistakes to be made in the short term. But then I expected the with HHCD too. Big gainer as he takes a bad angle and gets left in the dust. I'm excited to Breeland and Jackson on the field with Tramon, King, and Alexander
 
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Probably not, but there are probably things schematically they'll do to try and make it work. We've had safeties play more like DB's in the past, putting more DB's on the field to play that way isn't really a complete switch from what we've done fairly often in the past. I'm excited to find out, and I fully expect mistakes to be made in the short term. But then I expected the with HHCD too. Big gainer as he takes a bad angle and gets left in the dust. I'm excited to Breeland and Jackson on the field with Tramon, King, and Alexander

I'm excited about the cornerbacks on the roster as well but would definitely feel more comfortable about the entire secondary with a proven safety on the roster. Hopefully trading Clinton-Dix doesn't significantly weaken the entire unit.
 
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PackAttack12

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It's becoming obvious to me that Gutekunst and company felt like Clinton-Dix was a toxic influence in the locker room. You couple that with lets just call it less than stellar play on the field, and his pending free agent status, and you get the decision that was made.

Even if we're going to make the argument that, for this season, the safety play will drop off, I don't see it being near as significant as others are making it out to be.

Also, like it or not, this is something of a re-tooling stage for the Packers. This should have happened at least 2 years ago, but we have to play the hand that is dealt. Aaron Rodgers will be 35 when this season concludes. With the rules continuing in the favor of not being able to touch quarterbacks, the odds of quarterbacks having extended careers is inevitable. If the Packers play this stretch properly, there's a solid chance that Rodgers' years of 36-39, which is starting to look young in this NFL, could be some really special years. And then we'll have to see what 40+ brings.

To Gute's point, removing one player, who many are speculating was a head case, doesn't define the team and doesn't automatically equate to worse play on the field.

I'm going to opt for the more optimistic approach until I'm proven wrong. Gute and Pettine in my opinion have been tremendous thus far. They have my ultimate trust as of the present.
 
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You're right that those numbers are from PFF. I have no idea how they count the snaps but here's detailled information on their take of Whitehead's alignment vs. the Rams:

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Those breakdowns are more than a little strange and very interesing. It looks like they go by where the player is positioned relative to the offense, relative to the LOS, what type of player he is lined up over, and who the guys are he's playing next to. If I have to guess, I don't think they factor in what the guy does post-snap.

13 snaps as a D-Line OLB, for example? That's a 3-4 edge LB/rusher. I think you'd be hard pressed to find those snaps in that tape the way we understand 3-4 OLB. But he just might be standing in approximately that spot, on the line at 9-tech or wide 9, not over a receiver, whereas he is actually there to edge run defend or looking for a RB release. Or maybe he just drops in the short zone. I don't think you're going to find him rushing the passer from that spot very often in this tape, if at all.

But this breakdown goes to my point. The ILB / S distinction is largely artificial with these hybrid players just as the 3-4 / 4-3 distinction is artificial on a wide range of snaps. Looking at the 33 snaps designated as a box LB, only 8 of them are counted as a traditional 3-4 ILB designation (RILB and LILB) while the other 25 are traditional 4-3 designations (MLB. RLB, LLB)!

If we must apply the artificial S / LB designation, we have to consider that on a preponderance of these snaps Martinez is the only guy on the field we would traditionally call an off-the-ball LB if we don't give Whitehead that designation on a wide range of these snaps.

If we have to take these 75 snaps, and slot them into either a DB or LB category while realizing a hybrid player is neither, the only ones that clearly fall into the DB group are the 18 (24%) at wide corner and FS. From my examination of less than 1/3 of the snaps it would not surprise me if those counts are sensible, set 15 yards deep at S or wide on a WR or TE. That 24% is probably as close as you can get to "DB" in nickel or dime as we traditionally think of those sets.

We tend to think of the hybrid ILB as a smaller, faster LB better able to cover TEs and RBs with sideline-to-sideline speed for run defense. That's a big part of it, but not all of it, especially in this "everything including the kitchen sink" defense in this game and in general this season. It's probably time for a "hybrid player" category, though for the life of me I'm not sure how those players would be clearly identified. Anyway, they mark Whitehead as a "safety". For this game anyway "ILB" would be better if we must choose.

Anyway, they sure put a lot on Whitehead's plate for a guy with so little experience. It would appear they've found him to be a pretty smart ballplayer. I think he did a pretty good job except for that Gurley 30 yard TD reception. I don't know how PFF graded him, but they do seem to heavily weight big plays, good or bad. Whether this was a game plan/matchup decision in lieu of Burks or the way they'll go forward we'll just have to wait and see.

According to the NFLPA's website the Rams are currently $450K under the cap.
In the 7 hours between my post and yours the NFLPA updated their web site. We know a team cannot go over the cap in-season controlled by the league office contract approval process. The most likely reason they would show a negative cap space number at midnight and a positive number at 7:00 AM is a lag in processing an offsetting transaction that added to the cap space. Who knows...a guy or gall has two files dropped in the in-box, processes the one transaction at 4:00 PM, goes home, then comes back at 7:00 AM to finish up with the offsetting transaction. There are a variety of possible explanations.

Whether the Rams have zero cap space or $500,000 in cap space does not materially affect my cap analysis, one of these distinctions without a difference. ;)
 
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Anyway, they sure put a lot on Whitehead's plate for a guy with so little experience. It would appear they've found him to be a pretty smart ballplayer. I think he did a pretty good job except for that Gurley 30 yard TD reception. I don't know how PFF graded him, but they do seem to heavily weight big plays, good or bad. Whether this was a game plan/matchup decision in lieu of Burks or the way they'll go forward we'll just have to wait and see.

PFF graded Whitehead at 38.0 vs. the Rams.
 
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PFF graded Whitehead at 38.0 vs. the Rams.
I find that to be a little silly. But from everything I've seen, there is strong indication PFF puts a big weight on big plays. He didn't make any, but he did blow a big one.
 
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I find that to be a little silly. But from everything I've seen, there is strong indication PFF puts a big weight on big plays. He didn't make any, but he did blow a big one.

According to them Whitehead allowed a perfect passer rating into his coverage on five targets as well.
 
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According to them Whitehead allowed a perfect passer rating into his coverage on five targets as well.
That makes the grade that much more puzzling. It would seem to imply they thought he was was pretty dreadful against the run. :confused: I didn't see that.

I've looked again at that Gurley TD. Whitehead walked up in what looks like zone coverage to the hash mark, just a couple of yards behind the very spot where Gurley eventually caught the ball. The Rams ran a short cross over Gurley's under cross. Martinez maintained his zone on the opposite side picking up the crosser over Gurley. Whitehead abandoned his zone, going with that over crosser as well, maybe following the QBs eyes, ending up with his back to the play. That's the most plausible interpretation. But is it certain? No. We don't know the call. Maybe they were supposed to be in man and Martinez screwed up for not picking up Gurley crossing in front of him. I think I have to go with Martinez, the signal caller, getting the call right.

Maybe PFF docked nobody individually in the passer-rating-against formulation and consider it a "team error" since nobody was actually covering him.

For me, Whitehead making a mistake is the most plausible explanation. It is not certain. What PFF did with it anybody's guess. Maybe they docked him in some way that is not in the passer-rating-against. They claim to make educated judgements about what a guy's responsibility is on a play acknowledging the uncertainties invovled.

All-in-all, I don't get that grade if they didn't give Whitehead a ********* mark for that play.
 
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That makes the grade that much more puzzling. It would seem to imply they thought he was was pretty dreadful against the run. :confused: I didn't see that.

All-in-all, I don't get that grade if they didn't give Whitehead a ********* mark for that play.

Just to be clear, according to PFF Goff had a perfect passer rating of 158.3 when targeting Whitehead. They graded the Packers safety at 49.1 in run defense and 40.7 in coverage.
 
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Just to be clear, according to PFF Goff had a perfect passer rating of 158.3 when targeting Whitehead. They graded the Packers safety at 49.1 in run defense and 40.7 in coverage.
Well that makes a h*ll of a lot more sense. When you said Whitehead allowed a "perfect passer rating" into his coverage I interpreted that as 0.00, i.e., Whitehead being perfect. :confused: It looks like he got that ********* mark I would assign him.

Of course what you should have said is they graded the Packer "75% hybrid ILB, 25% safety" at .... ;)
 
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I forget which thread tbh, but Captain said PFF had HaHa down for 5 missed tackles.

Bull. ****.

[TWEET]https://mobile.twitter.com/GradingThePack/status/1055655956749672448?ref_src=twsrc^tfw|twcamp^tweetembed|twterm^1055655956749672448&ref_url=https://m.cheeseheadtv.com/blog/grading-the-pack-haha-clinton-dix-blake-martinez-bonus-film-review-506[/TWEET]


If you go through these, there are more than 5 missed tackles. And that doesn’t even have all his plays. It was just showing examples.

Clinton-Dix isn't even on the screen in approximately half of those clips :rolleyes:
 
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Stupid thing stopped the thread right where I embedded it lol. First half is Martinez focused, second half HaHa.

https://m.cheeseheadtv.com/blog/gra...nton-dix-blake-martinez-bonus-film-review-506

Go there. It’s all labeled and organized. Watch that and then roll your eyes.

Actually I don't have to look any further than the second play in the article. If you want to give him a negative grade on a play he wasn't and had no chance of being involved there's no point in talking about it any further in my opinion.
 

GleefulGary

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Actually I don't have to look any further than the second play in the article. If you want to give him a negative grade on a play he wasn't and had no chance of being involved there's no point in talking about it any further in my opinion.

If you read the heading, that part was about effort. But hey, you do you. I would urge you to at least go to the tackling portion, but maybe you just don’t want to be wrong.

Maybe if PFF had visual evidence of what you grade you wouldn’t like that either? I like to see things myself. I don’t have to agree with how they grade, hard to do that without visual evidence.
 
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PFF graded Whitehead at 38.0 vs. the Rams.
One final (as if anything is "final", LOL) question. Did PFF give Whitehead a pass rush grade and/or a pass rush snap count? I can't recall seeing him blitz. That doesn't mean he didn't. I'm wondering what numbers they put together with the 13 snaps they called "D-line OLB" which I take to mean the 3-4 OLB position.

After mulling over the matter of a Whitehead grade in the shower (where I do my best thinking :confused:), here's my final (I think ;)) thought on Whitehead's grade for the Rams game.

Absent the Gurley TD gaffe, my eyewash grade would come in around a 65 - 70. As far as what he should be docked for that Gurley gaffe I have not yet formulated an opinion. Something tells me if he had snagged one interception he'd have gotten big PFF plus points washing out the big negative play, but I digress.

My grade is colored by Whitehead's challenge of having to do so many different things. As the PFF snap breakdown indicates, he played something resembling every traditional position in a 3-4 defense except DT/DE, and a few more in something resembling 4-3 looks. I wonder how many other players in the league PFF identified as playing 15 different postions last week? Not many? None?

What he was doing resembled a lot of what Burnett was doing last season after they benched Jones following his hybrid trial, with a couple extra jobs thrown in for Whitehead it would appear. Burnett was a seasoned vet playing in a defense where he had years of familiarity, even calling the plays when in the box.

Here's Whitehead in a new defense with little NFL experience playing all over the place. PFF might not give him points for that, but I do.
 
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If you read the heading, that part was about effort. But hey, you do you. I would urge you to at least go to the tackling portion, but maybe you just don’t want to be wrong.

Maybe if PFF had visual evidence of what you grade you wouldn’t like that either? I like to see things myself. I don’t have to agree with how they grade, hard to do that without visual evidence.

PFF has assigned five missed tackles to Clinton-Dix, interestingly exactly the number of plays Fennell posted in his article.
 

GleefulGary

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PFF has assigned five missed tackles to Clinton-Dix, interestingly exactly the number of plays Fennell posted in his article.

1) Fennell didn’t post the article

2) There is at least one other one I would consider a missed tackle not under the tackling heading. It is under the run defense I believe. He overshot, took a bad angle, and couldn’t get to Cohen. I think that’s a missed tackle because he should’ve been in position. You don’t get bonus points for taking the wrong initial steps.

3) As I said before, these are example plays. Not all of the plays.
 
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1) Fennell didn’t post the article

3) As I said before, these are example plays. Not all of the plays.

My bad, it was Herman.

The second point is solely a guess on your part. Interestingly the plays posted in the article match the games in which PFF assigned missed tackles to Clinton-Dix.
 
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HardRightEdge

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If you go through these, there are more than 5 missed tackles. And that doesn’t even have all his plays. It was just showing examples.

I went through the "run tackling" and "open field tackling" clips as you suggested and counted, in fact, 5 broken tackles against C-D. Perhaps PFF might not have counted the first play in the run tackling portion because he was faked out. In other words, "missed tackles" might be "broken tackles" in PFF's world. In any event, 6 instead of 5 isn't exactly "bullsh*t" as you stated elsewhere

As for it being just "samples", here's what the author of the piece said about the selection process right there at the top:

"I re-watched every HaHa and Blake snap of the season this week, and below are the standout playsthe good, the bad, and the ugly if you will."

There's no reason to believe the author omitted any missed tackles.

I saw elsewhere a lot being made of the "effort" portion of C-D clips where he lollygags in last-line-of-defense mode while he watches his teammates make the tackle. My reaction is a semi-meh. I don't expect him or any safety to go diving in when tacklers have it under control. He needs to be in position to deal with what happens if the ball carrier breaks the tackle. While you would expect a little more tension and focus in his manner, I ask this question: did any ball carrier break a tackle and get by his lollygag? I didn't take note of any. Do you dock a guy for how he looks when he's out of a play or do you reserve that for an actual negative result? I think the latter. Maybe C-D's just smart in seeing what's happening and conserves energy while still being in position as that last line of defense. I can't say I'm pleased with those lollygags, but I'm not going to give a negative grade on those plays either unless a ball carrier gets by him flatfooted.
 
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I saw elsewhere a lot being made of the "effort" portion of C-D clips where he lollygags in last-line-of-defense mode while he watches his teammates make the tackle. My reaction is a semi-meh. I don't expect him or any safety to go diving in when tacklers have it under control. He needs to be in position to deal with what happens if the ball carrier breaks the tackle. While you would expect a little more tension and focus in his manner, I ask this question: did any ball carrier break a tackle and get by his lollygag? I didn't take note of any. Do you dock a guy for how he looks when he's out of a play or do you reserve that for an actual negative result? I think the latter. Maybe C-D's just smart in seeing what's happening and conserves energy while still being in position as that last line of defense. I can't say I'm pleased with those lollygags, but I'm not going to give a negative grade on those plays either unless a ball carrier gets by him flatfooted.
This was my thinking also when I saw the clips. Just be in position to assist at the point someone else has wrapped up the ball carrier.
 
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