Clinton-Dix at Cover Corner

[Carl]

The Packers lost two outside corners in Williams and House. Thompson drafted two defensive backs but none of them is best suited to play on the outside. So, actually he didn´t address the position adequately.

In addition he didn´t draft an inside linebacker until the fourth round so while I like some of the team´s picks in this year´s draft there are some valid reasons to criticize the GM for not upgrading the team´s most pressing needs.

My point to him was simply to say we didn't address corner was wrong.

Also, to dismiss both of them as unable to play outside this early is premature.

 

[brandon2348]

All this talk of inside/outside/interchangeable. TT has addressed the secondary very well IMO and there will be heavy competition for the outside corner spot vacated by Tramon. I don't think anyone can really say right not on these new guys coming in where they will end up or be best suited for. People can speculate but we simply don't know and this fan is very excited to see who develops and the competition. TT brought in some good football players/athletes and firepower IMO.

I really believe the secondary has the potential to be better then last year even with losing House and Williams. I think it can be a secondary that swarms and takes the ball away. There is no lack of speed or athleticism. Coach em up Mr. Whitt and Perry.

 

[wist43]

We also have Hyde, Hayward, Shields, and Burnett who are all solid guys

Every team every season has to rely on some rookies at some position.

Haha also isn't getting moved. That's just a bad idea by a poster.

So no, it does not seem like a complete mess.

Of those guys, only Shields is suited to play outside. So that means that Hayward is the next best option opposite him. He's a decent DB, but he's smallish and not well suited to playing man-to-man on the outside. He's a better tackler than Randall, but that's not saying much - b/c Randall is a terrible tackler.

We've really taken a step backward in the secondary - at least for this year; and since we're supposed to be a contender, we don't want to be taking steps backward at this point, we should be looking to fill the holes so as to make a run at a championship.

Looking to the future is all well and good - and, necessary; however, winning now should be a priority for TT, but it obviously takes a backseat to his always taking the long view.

In the mean time, Rodgers years are ticking away; Clay is another year older, etc...

 

[wist43]

Some might say Capers has a predisposition for playing small up front, others (who actually care about the real reasons and not player weights listed on a roster) might say he has a predisposition for playing good players over bad. In 2013, Capers options on the dline were Raji, Daniels, Pickett, Jolly, Datone Jones and Josh Boyd (both rookies). Are you seriously saying that Capers should have played a lineup of Raji, Pickett and Daniels more often? Perhaps instead of judging by weight you should judge by play. Raji was AWFUL against the run. He routinely got shoved around like he was on roller skates by one guard (not sure how he handled double teams because teams never had to double him).

They forced Capers to a hybrid front?! That defense was so terrible they scrapped the 'quad' lineup after two games! And I'm sorry, but EVERY coach would rather force the offense to drive the ball slowly down the field instead of giving up the big play. What successful defensive coordinator goes out and says that he would rather surrender the big play than allow a running back to average four yards per carry?

Instead of blaming Capers for the Packer's inability to stop the run, why don't you blame the guys really at fault, like the players? I know the easy and lazy idea is that the Packers could "replace just one guy!" and suddenly the defense would be amazing but all the facts point to that being incorrect. As I said, when Capers got a decent safety to pair with Burnett and a decent linebacker to pair with Matthews, suddenly the defense was about league average (when adjusted for opponent). How do you explain that?

When did I say anything about weight?? lol... sheesh...

Playing small up front means taking a DL off the field in favor of a DB - and, in the case of Capers, it means abandoning the middle of the field.

He didn't do that nearly as much last year as he had the previous 3 years, but he still did it - and we were one of the worst run defenses in the league at our bye week.

After the bye week he came out and played much more actual hybrid/Elephant and the bleeding stopped to a large extent.

Another passive play by Capers is his penchant for rushing 3 and dropping 8 in long down/distance situations. In the Seattle game, the play that started the wheels coming off was that 3rd and long play where Capers did just that - and Wilson lobbed a rainbow in the air which landed in the hands of a completely uncovered WR for a 1st down. Vintage Capers.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Also, to dismiss both of them as unable to play outside this early is premature.

I didn't say that Randall and Rollins won't be able to play outside but that they aren't best suited to play there.

Randall has played free safety during his college career and while Rollins mostly played outside during his one year of playing football he doesn't possess ideal speed to line up there in the NFL. In addition with him being extremely raw I would prefer Hayward (who is a better fit in the slot as well) to start opposite Shields.

 

[Carl]

Of those guys, only Shields is suited to play outside. So that means that Hayward is the next best option opposite him. He's a decent DB, but he's smallish and not well suited to playing man-to-man on the outside. He's a better tackler than Randall, but that's not saying much - b/c Randall is a terrible tackler.

We've really taken a step backward in the secondary - at least for this year; and since we're supposed to be a contender, we don't want to be taking steps backward at this point, we should be looking to fill the holes so as to make a run at a championship.

Looking to the future is all well and good - and, necessary; however, winning now should be a priority for TT, but it obviously takes a backseat to his always taking the long view.

In the mean time, Rodgers years are ticking away; Clay is another year older, etc...

First of all, Hayward is bigger than Shields so if Hayward can't play outside, it's not due to his size.

Secondly, not much TT could have done about losing House and Tramon other than really overpay. Neither are worth the contracts they got.

Finally, being a contender every year and getting a title out of it is much more likely than trying to be the best team one year win right now. The best team is not guarenteed to win it all and frequently doesn't. I bet you were thinking we should have been like 49ers two years ago.

TT lost free agents which happens due to the cap, so he drafted replacements high. What did you want him to do?

 

[Deleted member 6794]

First of all, Hayward is bigger than Shields so if Hayward can't play outside, it's not due to his size.

Secondly, not much TT could have done about losing House and Tramon other than really overpay. Neither are worth the contracts they got.

Finally, being a contender every year and getting a title out of it is much more likely than trying to be the best team one year win right now. The best team is not guarenteed to win it all and frequently doesn't. I bet you were thinking we should have been like 49ers two years ago.

TT lost free agents which happens due to the cap, so he drafted replacements high. What did you want him to do?

There's a smart way to use free agency as well, teams don't have to follow the 49ers or last year's Broncos approach. Thompson has brought in players that way who had a positive impact on the team but I would like him to use it more often to selectively improve positions of need.

 

[Carl]

There's a smart way to use free agency as well, teams don't have to follow the 49ers or last year's Broncos approach. Thompson has brought in players that way who had a positive impact on the team but I would like him to use it more often to selectively improve positions of need.

I agree that being smart with free agency can be helpful.

At corner however, we're fine. We have two solid guys, two high draft picks, and another in Hyde who can also play at corner. I don't understand the angst generated by the wist43 about the position.

 

[Sunshinepacker]

When did I say anything about weight?? lol... sheesh...

Playing small up front means taking a DL off the field in favor of a DB - and, in the case of Capers, it means abandoning the middle of the field.

He didn't do that nearly as much last year as he had the previous 3 years, but he still did it - and we were one of the worst run defenses in the league at our bye week.

After the bye week he came out and played much more actual hybrid/Elephant and the bleeding stopped to a large extent.

Another passive play by Capers is his penchant for rushing 3 and dropping 8 in long down/distance situations. In the Seattle game, the play that started the wheels coming off was that 3rd and long play where Capers did just that - and Wilson lobbed a rainbow in the air which landed in the hands of a completely uncovered WR for a 1st down. Vintage Capers.

So the corner that was supposed to cover that receiver gets no blame? And tell me, which dlineman should Capers have kept in the game more often in prior years rather than playing 2 dlinemen? Because right now you're saying that the defense would have been better with Johnny Jolly on the field instead of Hyde in 2013? Or maybe they should have played Pickett more often? Are you actually looking at the players when you make these broad proclamations?

Please, what three dlinemen out of Raji, Daniels, Pickett, Jolly, Wilson, Jones (rookie) and Boyd (rookie) should the Packers have put on the field instead of an extra DB (bearing in mind that the Packers were stuck with truly awful safeties so the pass defense is even more screwed when you take Hyde/House off the field)? In 2012, which three dlinemen out of Raji, Daniels (rookie), Pickett, Worthy, Wilson or Neal (for the approximate four games he was actually healthy) should the Packers have used?

Instead of just shouting that Capers is bad because he played two dlinemen, why don't you actually say which players he should have played?

 

[Sunshinepacker]

Go ahead and toy with this poster but keep in mind if the team - and the D - does well during the regular season, he won't be around to face up to what he's posted. Remember, this is the poster who criticized Capers for misusing Peppers before TC last season.

Oddly enough I find it enjoyable to read through posts that ignore central points and change focus all the time.

 

[wist43]

First of all, Hayward is bigger than Shields so if Hayward can't play outside, it's not due to his size.

Secondly, not much TT could have done about losing House and Tramon other than really overpay. Neither are worth the contracts they got.

Finally, being a contender every year and getting a title out of it is much more likely than trying to be the best team one year win right now. The best team is not guarenteed to win it all and frequently doesn't. I bet you were thinking we should have been like 49ers two years ago.

TT lost free agents which happens due to the cap, so he drafted replacements high. What did you want him to do?

Heyward plays small, and while Shields is never going to be a hitter or top-flight tackler, he has long arms, good technique, and is likely the fastest player on the team.

Hopefully Heyward plays well outside, b/c outside of him we really don't have anyone else who can matchup and play out there... he's our best candidate, but not necessarily a good candidate. That's the point.

 

[wist43]

So the corner that was supposed to cover that receiver gets no blame? And tell me, which dlineman should Capers have kept in the game more often in prior years rather than playing 2 dlinemen? Because right now you're saying that the defense would have been better with Johnny Jolly on the field instead of Hyde in 2013? Or maybe they should have played Pickett more often? Are you actually looking at the players when you make these broad proclamations?

Please, what three dlinemen out of Raji, Daniels, Pickett, Jolly, Wilson, Jones (rookie) and Boyd (rookie) should the Packers have put on the field instead of an extra DB (bearing in mind that the Packers were stuck with truly awful safeties so the pass defense is even more screwed when you take Hyde/House off the field)? In 2012, which three dlinemen out of Raji, Daniels (rookie), Pickett, Worthy, Wilson or Neal (for the approximate four games he was actually healthy) should the Packers have used?

Instead of just shouting that Capers is bad because he played two dlinemen, why don't you actually say which players he should have played?

Capers rarely played base at all - that is the central point. There have been all kinds of analysis done depicting the leagues move toward using more subpackages, and that is to be expected - but no one ran more nickel and dime than the Packers during the span 2011-13.

Capers ran nickel as his base more often than not - and then went completely moronic when he dreamed up his vaunted "Jumbo nickel" with Raji and Pickett playing inside. That offered the worst of all worlds, i.e. the front was static, we generated very little pass rush, and we overall size and athleticism to deal with the run. As a result, we were one of the worst run defenses in the league, and one of the worst defenses overall in the league.

As for the subpackages, be it nickel or dime, given the personnel TT provided, the most logical alignment would have been to go to a 3-3 with any combination of players you wanted. It would have allowed the defense to matchup with 3 wides without compromising the integrity of the middle of the defense, and also create opportunities and angles from which to blitz.

Instead, Capers simply kept throwing his idiotic 2-4 out there, and we got the living daylights beat out of us for 3 years.

Finally, MM and TT said enough was enough, and MM got involved on the defensive side of the ball last offseason - something he had never done before. For my money, the right move would have been to simply fire Capers, but of course they didn't, and likely never will.

Capers cannot be trusted - ever. I said it when they hired him all those years ago, and nothing has changed. Given his druthers - he wouldn't rush anyone, nor would he defend the run. He views the game as strictly a 7 on 7 passing drill.

 

[Sunshinepacker]

Capers rarely played base at all - that is the central point. There have been all kinds of analysis done depicting the leagues move toward using more subpackages, and that is to be expected - but no one ran more nickel and dime than the Packers during the span 2011-13.

Capers ran nickel as his base more often than not - and then went completely moronic when he dreamed up his vaunted "Jumbo nickel" with Raji and Pickett playing inside. That offered the worst of all worlds, i.e. the front was static, we generated very little pass rush, and we overall size and athleticism to deal with the run. As a result, we were one of the worst run defenses in the league, and one of the worst defenses overall in the league.

As for the subpackages, be it nickel or dime, given the personnel TT provided, the most logical alignment would have been to go to a 3-3 with any combination of players you wanted. It would have allowed the defense to matchup with 3 wides without compromising the integrity of the middle of the defense, and also create opportunities and angles from which to blitz.

Instead, Capers simply kept throwing his idiotic 2-4 out there, and we got the living daylights beat out of us for 3 years.

Finally, MM and TT said enough was enough, and MM got involved on the defensive side of the ball last offseason - something he had never done before. For my money, the right move would have been to simply fire Capers, but of course they didn't, and likely never will.

Capers cannot be trusted - ever. I said it when they hired him all those years ago, and nothing has changed. Given his druthers - he wouldn't rush anyone, nor would he defend the run. He views the game as strictly a 7 on 7 passing drill.

I didn't see the lineup that you would have played instead, perhaps I missed it? Given the roster at dline, what 3 linemen should have been in the game and what player would have come out?

You also forgot that MM's intervention in the off-season was a colossal failure on defense. They shelved the "quad" defense after only a few games. MM redeemed himself a little during the season when he and Capers decided to move Clay inside.

 

[Carl]

Capers rarely played base at all - that is the central point. There have been all kinds of analysis done depicting the leagues move toward using more subpackages, and that is to be expected - but no one ran more nickel and dime than the Packers during the span 2011-13.

Capers ran nickel as his base more often than not - and then went completely moronic when he dreamed up his vaunted "Jumbo nickel" with Raji and Pickett playing inside. That offered the worst of all worlds, i.e. the front was static, we generated very little pass rush, and we overall size and athleticism to deal with the run. As a result, we were one of the worst run defenses in the league, and one of the worst defenses overall in the league.

As for the subpackages, be it nickel or dime, given the personnel TT provided, the most logical alignment would have been to go to a 3-3 with any combination of players you wanted. It would have allowed the defense to matchup with 3 wides without compromising the integrity of the middle of the defense, and also create opportunities and angles from which to blitz.

Instead, Capers simply kept throwing his idiotic 2-4 out there, and we got the living daylights beat out of us for 3 years.

Finally, MM and TT said enough was enough, and MM got involved on the defensive side of the ball last offseason - something he had never done before. For my money, the right move would have been to simply fire Capers, but of course they didn't, and likely never will.

Capers cannot be trusted - ever. I said it when they hired him all those years ago, and nothing has changed. Given his druthers - he wouldn't rush anyone, nor would he defend the run. He views the game as strictly a 7 on 7 passing drill.

Can't be trusted even during a Super Bowl run with a very good defense?

I understand some criticism since 2010, but once again you're exaggerating.

 

[Carl]

Heyward plays small, and while Shields is never going to be a hitter or top-flight tackler, he has long arms, good technique, and is likely the fastest player on the team.

Hopefully Heyward plays well outside, b/c outside of him we really don't have anyone else who can matchup and play out there... he's our best candidate, but not necessarily a good candidate. That's the point.

I don't see why Hayward can't do well outside. We can agree to disagree and wait to see what happens when the season starts.

 

[brandon2348]

Tramon Williams was a "boundary corner". It's not like trying to replace Shields here. IMO we have more then one guy that can do it. The secondary IMO is a major strength of the defense.

 

[wist43]

Tramon Williams was a "boundary corner". It's not like trying to replace Shields here. IMO we have more then one guy that can do it. The secondary IMO is a major strength of the defense.

That's a lot of flux to absorb into a secondary that had just begun to get things semi-figured

Can't be trusted even during a Super Bowl run with a very good defense?

I understand some criticism since 2010, but once again you're exaggerating.

For the record? No, I didn't trust him at all during the SB run, lol... I will never, ever, trust Capers not to go stupid at a critical moment. Rushing 3 and dropping 8 in a "cover a patch of turf, and never mind the receivers" defense - that is going stupid.

As for the rest of it - good grief man, we set an all-time NFL record for pass defense futility in 2011; and the "jumbo nickel" was an obvious recipe to get run over - which is exactly what happened, either in long stretches during the '11-'13 seasons, or in huge, embarrassing bursts in single-game blow-ups. Kaepernick nearly had his bust bronzed on the spot in that embarrassing playoff loss where Capers admitted he had no idea how to stop them!!

You guys are obviously always on the ready to cleanse your brains of heartbreaking, headscratching, WTF'ing, losses - way before I am

I was well aware of Capers before he ever came to GB, and going back to his days with the Panthers I didn't like how he called games, or some of the gimmicks he came up with. I thought they often times looked unsound - and they were. Just as that "jumbo nickel" was not well conceived.

In general, I've liked the talent of the defensive front - since I like the talent, the next link in the chain is Capers. Up until last year, he had fundamentally misused the front 6/7 players, sold TT on Jones, oversaw seasons long worth of miscommunication in the back end, poor tackling ("we'll get that fixed...", MM), in game calls that would have my brain hemorrhaging; etc...

What's to trust??

 

[Carl]

That's a lot of flux to absorb into a secondary that had just begun to get things semi-figured


For the record? No, I didn't trust him at all during the SB run, lol... I will never, ever, trust Capers not to go stupid at a critical moment. Rushing 3 and dropping 8 in a "cover a patch of turf, and never mind the receivers" defense - that is going stupid.

As for the rest of it - good grief man, we set an all-time NFL record for pass defense futility in 2011; and the "jumbo nickel" was an obvious recipe to get run over - which is exactly what happened, either in long stretches during the '11-'13 seasons, or in huge, embarrassing bursts in single-game blow-ups. Kaepernick nearly had his bust bronzed on the spot in that embarrassing playoff loss where Capers admitted he had no idea how to stop them!!

You guys are obviously always on the ready to cleanse your brains of heartbreaking, headscratching, WTF'ing, losses - way before I am

I was well aware of Capers before he ever came to GB, and going back to his days with the Panthers I didn't like how he called games, or some of the gimmicks he came up with. I thought they often times looked unsound - and they were. Just as that "jumbo nickel" was not well conceived.

In general, I've liked the talent of the defensive front - since I like the talent, the next link in the chain is Capers. Up until last year, he had fundamentally misused the front 6/7 players, sold TT on Jones, oversaw seasons long worth of miscommunication in the back end, poor tackling ("we'll get that fixed...", MM), in game calls that would have my brain hemorrhaging; etc...

What's to trust??

I just acknowledged I understand criticism after 2010.

If you couldn't even trust the guy during a time when our defense was very good, it shows you cannot be objective and rational. There's no point in me trying to continue to have this discussion with you.

 

[wist43]

I just acknowledged I understand criticism after 2010.

If you couldn't even trust the guy during a time when our defense was very good, it shows you cannot be objective and rational. There's no point in me trying to continue to have this discussion with you.

Quite the opposite is true - it is I who am being objective and rational, b/c I look at the body of his work, and his tendencies.

If he gets a sack on 2nd and 10 after bringing pressure and covering everyone well - he is just as likely on the next snap of 3rd and 19, to rush 3 and cover no one, thereby giving up an easy first down. And it is crap like that that makes him a completely unreliable game-day play caller.

No, I don't trust Capers, and never will - and neither should any Packer fan.

 

[TJV]

If you couldn't even trust the guy during a time when our defense was very good, it shows you cannot be objective and rational. There's no point in me trying to continue to have this discussion with you.

And we have a winner!

Quite the opposite is true - it is I who am being objective and rational, b/c I look at the body of his work, and his tendencies.

Quite the opposite is true - you have posted as if you have a personal vendetta against Capers from your very first post here. BTW, since you pretend to be objective and rational would you like to acknowledge you were wrong about how Capers would use Peppers - something you stated before Peppers participated in a single TC practice?

 

[Carl]

And we have a winner! Quite the opposite is true - you have posted as if you have a personal vendetta against Capers from your very first post here. BTW, since you pretend to be objective and rational would you like to acknowledge you were wrong about how Capers would use Peppers - something you stated before Peppers participated in a single TC practice?

The defense finished high the league and was great all playoffs, but I was so sure Capers would mess things up all the time that year.

I just hate the "cover no one" play call when Capers tells his guys to leave WRs open. Can't possibly be the players messing that up.

Makes perfect sense....

 

[Deleted member 6794]

I agree that being smart with free agency can be helpful.

At corner however, we're fine. We have two solid guys, two high draft picks, and another in Hyde who can also play at corner. I don't understand the angst generated by the wist43 about the position.

I don't understand wist43's point of view either but I'm not totally convinced the defense will be fine at outside corner opposite Shields for next season. I like Hayward and think that both Randall and Rollins could turn into solid NFL players but all of them are best suited to play in the slot.

 

[brandon2348]

I don't understand wist43's point of view either but I'm not totally convinced the defense will be fine at outside corner opposite Shields for next season. I like Hayward and think that both Randall and Rollins could turn into solid NFL players but all of them are best suited to play in the slot.

The secondary is gonna be turning "pick six's" all over the field. I can't wait for camp to start and see the competition for the open corner spot to begin. Hayward can play in the slot and Hyde can as well. I have a real hard time believing TT drafted these two guys because they are "best suited" to play in the slot when we already have guys to do it.

I am trusting the Packer brain trust here and with all the guys we brought in IMO the team will be just fine at opposite corner of Shields.

 

[RRyder]

Quite the opposite is true - it is I who am being objective and rational, b/c I look at the body of his work, and his tendencies.

If he gets a sack on 2nd and 10 after bringing pressure and covering everyone well - he is just as likely on the next snap of 3rd and 19, to rush 3 and cover no one, thereby giving up an easy first down. And it is crap like that that makes him a completely unreliable game-day play caller.

No, I don't trust Capers, and never will - and neither should any Packer fan.

Well if only 3 are being rushed and nobodies being covered then thats more likely the fault of the players on the field. Not the DC.

 

[RRyder]

I don't understand wist43's point of view either but I'm not totally convinced the defense will be fine at outside corner opposite Shields for next season. I like Hayward and think that both Randall and Rollins could turn into solid NFL players but all of them are best suited to play in the slot.

I get what your saying but from a measurables standpoint Tramon was best suited for the slot also untill he got his chance. I might be higher on Hayward then most but im all in on him having a huge year for us