Clinton-Dix at Cover Corner

[HardRightEdge]

In all fairness you couldve tested Tramon in the 40 the last 5 years and he probably would've ran slower then all listed and he still managed to hold up on the outside for the most part. Also his predecessor Al Harris was far from a speed demon.

Technique and the ability to run in pads go a whole lot further then a fast 40 time in shorts

True. Then why are the posters in this thread ruling out Dix at corner based on a Combine 40 time? In terms of long speed, he looks faster than Hyde or Hayward, for example.

 

[TJV]

Random thoughts on this thread:

The OP says, “I think there’s a case for trying Dix on the perimeter…” so I don’t understand ARodsBelt12 point. The personnel people will do their jobs, and the coaches will coach, but boards like this one are precisely for giving opinions on how they have, or should do their jobs.

I know what he meant but captainWIMM’s statement, “…there is not a single CB on the roster best suited to play on the outside opposite Shields” is wrong. There is one best suited we just don’t know which one, or how well suited he is.

The thing that jumped out at me most in this thread was how in the world did Hyde drop to #159 in the fifth round??!! I had assumed it was combine times, but that clearly doesn’t explain it. He played in the Big 10 so it wasn’t a concern about the competition. In another thread someone posted something like, ‘if so-and-so had a higher ceiling he would have been taken higher in the draft’. Hyde is just one of many examples of that not being true.

It is a positive that Randall gained that weight and then ran those times at the combine. The issue with him may be how much weight he can sustain throughout a season.

Loved the video of Ray – it brought back great memories. Early in his Packers career, it was very apparent Ray played fullback - and LB at Illinois – less apparent later in his career. (BTW, Ray was a QB his freshman season and switched to FB as a sophomore.)

 

[Ace]

But there is a huge difference in 3 cone times an 40 yd times though. The 3 cone tests not only speed, but also quickness, which is also important for corners. (By the way, Rollins is also slow in the 3 cone)

Hayward: 6,76
Hyde: 6.78
Shields: 6.79
Goodson: 6.80
Randall: 6.83
Rollins: 7.10
Clinton-Dix: 7.16

Wouldn't what you've posted here futher solidify that Hayward and Hyde are prototypical slot guys? Not arguing just looking to confirm what my personal thoughts are.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

True. Then why are the posters in this thread ruling out Dix at corner based on a Combine 40 time? In terms of long speed, he looks faster than Hyde or Hayward, for example.

I don't want the Packers to move Clinton-Dix to cover corner because he stabilized the safety position and is capable of playing as a single high FS. In addition I expect him to improve even further.

Damarious Randall is a complete unknown and there's no guarantee he would be as effective at safety as Ha Ha. It took us quite some time after Collins got injured to find a decent replacement for him, I don't see the need to risk regressing at the position once again.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

I know what he meant but captainWIMM’s statement, “…there is not a single CB on the roster best suited to play on the outside opposite Shields” is wrong. There is one best suited we just don’t know which one, or how well suited he is.

Heh, I see what you did there.

 

[HardRightEdge]

(BTW, Ray was a QB his freshman season and switched to FB as a sophomore.)

Yeah, but did he play basketball or centerfield?

 

[ARodsBelt12]

Random thoughts on this thread:

The OP says, “I think there’s a case for trying Dix on the perimeter…” so I don’t understand ARodsBelt12 point. The personnel people will do their jobs, and the coaches will coach, but boards like this one are precisely for giving opinions on how they have, or should do their jobs.

I know what he meant but captainWIMM’s statement, “…there is not a single CB on the roster best suited to play on the outside opposite Shields” is wrong. There is one best suited we just don’t know which one, or how well suited he is.

The thing that jumped out at me most in this thread was how in the world did Hyde drop to #159 in the fifth round??!! I had assumed it was combine times, but that clearly doesn’t explain it. He played in the Big 10 so it wasn’t a concern about the competition. In another thread someone posted something like, ‘if so-and-so had a higher ceiling he would have been taken higher in the draft’. Hyde is just one of many examples of that not being true.

It is a positive that Randall gained that weight and then ran those times at the combine. The issue with him may be how much weight he can sustain throughout a season.

Loved the video of Ray – it brought back great memories. Early in his Packers career, it was very apparent Ray played fullback - and LB at Illinois – less apparent later in his career. (BTW, Ray was a QB his freshman season and switched to FB as a sophomore.)

My point is that all across this board there are posts about how to improve the team. People have a right to their opinion but as fans I think we would enjoy the team and the game more if we trusted that the people in charge, the people who have delivered us success for the past decade, have a plan and a proven track record of putting a great team together year in and year out. Just my 2 cents and I'll get off my soapbox now.

 

[Luca]

Wouldn't what you've posted here futher solidify that Hayward and Hyde are prototypical slot guys? Not arguing just looking to confirm what my personal thoughts are.

I don't think that 3 cone times show that in general. I think that 3 cone time are also an important indicator for the outside guys. They show quickness, speed and the ability to change direction. But like HardRight said they don't show stuff like backpedalling and other important cornerback traits.

Having said that, I agree that both Hyde and Hayward are probably better as slot corner than outside. I do however believe that the same can be said about both Randall and Rollins. So one of our "slot corners" has to play outside. I think that of those four guys Hayward is probably the best outside corner, so expect him to win the starting job outside. By the way, I think that Hayward is a much better corner than many people on this board give him credit for, but that is just my opinion. Randall also has the skillset to play outside, but he lacks experience there. So I don't expect him to play there year 1 (or at least, not week 1), but he might be the guy next year.

 

[easyk83]

Some may not be aware:

Hayward Combine: 4.57 with no Pro Day retest;
Clinton-Dix Combine: 4.58 with no Pro Day retest
Rollins Combine: 4.57 with no Pro Day retest
Hyde Combine: 4.56 with no Pro Day retest

That's a awfully crowded field in the safety/nickel group if speed is all that mattered, with a first rounder and two second rounders in the group. That's an awful lot of draft capital jammed into the same profile. Any critique of Clinton-Dix at cover corner based on speed must also be applied to Hayward, Rollins and Hyde.

That puts all the eggs in the Randall basket on purely a speed basis. But if he does not take to the technique instruction for cover corner or the lack of physicality shows itself to be a liability, the job is thrown up for grabs, with the first rounder needing to find a place on the field.

Didn't Tramon run a 4.57 at his Pro Day? Which suggests that Williams would have have been a couple tenths of a second slower had he appeared at the Combine, so perhaps those times aren't that modest.

Of course Tramontana did have a tremendous 127 inch broad jump, way back in 2006 when Combine training wasn't what it is now. That kind of explosiveness in the lower body will tend to mitigate limited speed.

 

[HardRightEdge]

Didn't Tramon run a 4.57 at his Pro Day? Which suggests that Williams would have have been a couple tenths of a second slower had he appeared at the Combine, so perhaps those times aren't that modest.

Of course Tramontana did have a tremendous 127 inch broad jump, way back in 2006 when Combine training wasn't what it is now. That kind of explosiveness in the lower body will tend to mitigate limited speed.

4.57 Pro Day for Tramon is what I see. 40 times tell you something, within limits. The idea that these things are run from a sprinter stance raises some questions. Some guys train for the sprinter start and get the hang of it; others may not train for it or just don't get the hang of it.

A player could easily lose or gain 1/10 of a second, maybe more, on how well they execute the sprint start which has little usable football value.

There does tend to be a correlation between 40 times and field speed, but it is somewhat loose.

 

[brandon2348]

Clinton-Dix is not going to get moved to corner. If anything Clinton-Dix will move to SS after this year if the team moves on from Burnett and one of our "ballhawks" that we drafted would go to FS IMO.

With Hayward and everything that has been invested to get a corner I don't see any reason why they would move Dix over there. TT has already said Randall was going to be used as a corner and is the position he should of played at ASU according to there coaches. He played safety at ASU based on need.

IMO this is where we need to trust TT and Packer brain trust that Randall has the ability to be an NFL corner.

 

[HardRightEdge]

People have a right to their opinion but as fans I think we would enjoy the team and the game more if we trusted that the people in charge....

Do you really want to tell other people where they should take their enjoyment?

Personally I enjoy watching good players playing well, in a system that has given them the roles that maximize their talents, and seeing that translated to high level team performance on the field.

I've been a Packer fan for 55 years, and I'll tell you this. I enjoy watching Buffalo's defense a whole lot better than watching what Capers has putting on the field the last 4 years.

You may not like that, but that's the way it is.

 

[HardRightEdge]

If anything Clinton-Dix will move to SS after this year if the team moves on from Burnett....

And people call me negative!

Burnett had a fine season last year after having the Jennings albatross lifted from around his neck while being allowed to play to his strengths at strong safety. He's in his prime years. After Matthews and Peppers, I'd judge Burnett as most essential to defensive success in the coming season.

As for the draftees, a new pretty face can be quite appealing when first viewed from across the room. When you get up close and engage in conversation you may see things differently.

 

[brandon2348]

And people call me negative!

Burnett had a fine season last year after having the Jennings albatross lifted from around his neck while being allowed to play to his strengths at strong safety. He's in his prime years. After Matthews and Peppers, I'd judge Burnett as most essential to defensive success in the coming season.

As for the draftees, a new pretty face can be quite appealing when first viewed from across the room. When you get up close and engage in conversation you may see things differently.

Not being negative. I thought Burnett had a great season and he really made a fan out of me for him last season but you never know what is a around the corner when his contract is up.

Clinton-Dix just got a year under his belt playing safety so I would expect more development this season. To move him to corner and plug let's say Randall at FS you now have two question marks. By keeping Dix at Free and letting Hayward, Randall, Collins battle it out you have three guys filling one question mark opposed to two. Just makes sense to me to leave Dix at FS all the way around.

 

[HardRightEdge]

Not being negative. I thought Burnett had a great season and he really made a fan out of me for him last season but you never know what is a around the corner when his contract is up.

Clinton-Dix just got a year under his belt playing safety so I would expect more development this season. To move him to corner and plug let's say Randall at FS you now have two question marks. By keeping Dix at Free and letting Hayward, Randall, Collins battle it out you have three guys filling one question mark opposed to two. Just makes sense to me to leave Dix at FS all the way around.

Burnett is signed through 2017, beyond the range of anybody's crystal ball.

"Collins"? That would qualify as another Freudian slip.

 

[brandon2348]

Burnett is signed through 2017, beyond the range of anybody's crystal ball.

"Collins"? That would qualify as another Freudian slip.

Yeah I expect Collins to be in the mix but not sure if at safety or corner. Beyond that I think your going to see a lot of "three safety look" this year. Randall is a first round pick. You expect a first round pick to come in and start right away or at least contribute. Many experts feel Randall was flat out the best "cover guy" in the draft regardless of position.

Were just going to have to see how it shakes out. I know this. As far as an athletic stand point I think we upgraded the secondary position overall. Throw in the UDFA Ladaruis Gunter and there is talent all over the place. We are very very deep in the secondary and have no shortage of talent.

Now it's just time to "coach em up"' and let the creme rise to the top.

 

[TJV]

My point is that all across this board there are posts about how to improve the team. People have a right to their opinion but as fans I think we would enjoy the team and the game more if we trusted that the people in charge, the people who have delivered us success for the past decade, have a plan and a proven track record of putting a great team together year in and year out.

Two things: First if we (blindly) trust the people in charge what’s the purpose of this board? To cheerlead? Second, I enjoy the team and game immensely and I enjoy participating on this board.

I to am surprised at the knock on Burnett. IMO he had his best season last year: That criticism is a full season late.

Brandon2348, Doctor Freud will see you now. Please bring your Packers roster.

 

[JBlood]

It's interesting to watch the second play in that tape. Some things never change...an all-around ILB has to run the seam. That play is labeled 1965...that's a 30 year old ILB, 8 years in the league, with a lot of mileage.

When you get down to it, finding one who's above average against the run downhill and sideline-to-sideline, and in zone and man coverage, are rare. Patrick Willis-type players only come around so often and you need to have the high pick to get them.

Nitschke was the best, maybe of all time. And he was the 2nd pick in the 3rd round (#36) of the '58 draft, which today would be an early 2nd round pick. 25 interceptions and 23 fumble recoveries. I don't know how many forced fumbles. The best of the Packers' middle linebackers; which of course makes him the best of all time.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

If anything Clinton-Dix will move to SS after this year if the team moves on from Burnett and one of our "ballhawks" that we drafted would go to FS IMO.

Once again, Burnett is signed through the 2017 season and there´s absolutely no reason to release him after the way he played last season. Clinton-Dix is best suited to play free safety, it doesn´t make any sense to move him to SS.

Yeah I expect Collins to be in the mix but not sure if at safety or corner. Beyond that I think your going to see a lot of "three safety look" this year. Randall is a first round pick. You expect a first round pick to come in and start right away or at least contribute. Many experts feel Randall was flat out the best "cover guy" in the draft regardless of position.

Were just going to have to see how it shakes out. I know this. As far as an athletic stand point I think we upgraded the secondary position overall. Throw in the UDFA Ladaruis Gunter and there is talent all over the place. We are very very deep in the secondary and have no shortage of talent.

Now it's just time to "coach em up"' and let the creme rise to the top.

First of all, Nick Collins was the Pro Bowl safety who suffered a career ending injury in 2011. The name of the guy we drafted in the second round last week is Quinten Rollins.

The Packers have a ton of cornerbacks and safeties on the roster as of now but none of them is an optimal fit to play outside corner (I hope this time my phrasing won´t result in another amending comment by TJV ).

 

[brandon2348]

Once again, Burnett is signed through the 2017 season and there´s absolutely no reason to release him after the way he played last season. Clinton-Dix is best suited to play free safety, it doesn´t make any sense to move him to SS.



First of all, Nick Collins was the Pro Bowl safety who suffered a career ending injury in 2011. The name of the guy we drafted in the second round last week is Quinten Rollins.

The Packers have a ton of cornerbacks and safeties on the roster as of now but none of them is an optimal fit to play outside corner (I hope this time my phrasing won´t result in another amending comment by TJV ).

I agree with everything you are saying but I do feel it is too early to say we don't have another optimal outside guy on the roster other then Shields. I mean people act like Tramon Williams was "big", "Physical" and had great "top end speed." He had none of those qualities.

IMO it is that some Packer fans don't see the type of outside corner they would prefer on the roster so now we don't have one in there mind. Once again, as I have posted before Randall has been called the best "cover guy" coming out of the draft regardless of position by many scouts and is more athletic then Tramon Williams was.

Then everyone get's all scared of the "big bad bears" and the "kitty kats" and there big receivers. The bottom line is were gonna truck both those teams and there bigger receivers haven't stopped us from winning the division for quite some time now.

The fact is we don't know yet if we have an "Optimal NFL outside guy" but my money would be that Randall will be serviceable there at the very least. I would also lean to project Collins as a future safety if had to choose but we simply don't know.

Nick Collins comparisons are a little far fetched at this point IMO.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Once again, as I have posted before Randall has been called the best "cover guy" coming out of the draft regardless of position by many scouts and is more athletic then Tramon Williams was.

I haven´t seen anybody call Randall the best cover guy in the draft regardless of position. A link would be appreciated.

 

[brandon2348]

I haven´t seen anybody call Randall the best cover guy in the draft regardless of position. A link would be appreciated.[/QUOT

I'm not going to go searching for links and videos that grade out players. I've seen on a couple sources that consider him to have best "coverage skills" in draft. He is getting graded out mostly with safeties and even ASU has said that's not his natural position.

I really don't know why some people keep fighting this pick. He was drafted to play corner. I really hope this kid becomes something good so all the TT doubters (on this pick) and all this crazy talk about moving Dix over to corner becomes a "chuckle."

 

[Deleted member 6794]

I'm not going to go searching for links and videos that grade out players. I've seen on a couple sources that consider him to have best "coverage skills" in draft. He is getting graded out mostly with safeties and even ASU has said that's not his natural position.

Well, then I have to assume you´re making it up.

I really don't know why some people keep fighting this pick. He was drafted to play corner. I really hope this kid becomes something good so all the TT doubters (on this pick) and all this crazy talk about moving Dix over to corner becomes a "chuckle."

I´ve posted in several threads that I like the Randall pick. That doesn´t change that he´s not best suited to play outside corner in the league though.

 

[brandon2348]

Well, then I have to assume you´re making it up.



I´ve posted in several threads that I like the Randall pick. That doesn´t change that he´s not best suited to play outside corner in the league though.

How do you know he isn't best suited to play "outside corner?'" He hasn't even been to rookie camp yet? The guy has not even lined up in a Packer uniform. Let's actually see what he can do then make that assessment.

Once again I think this plays to some people that don't see the type of guy they would prefer out there so now it's like he can't play outside and we simply don't know.

I really don't think TT used a first round pick for a "slot corner." Just for the record that I can't wait to bring up in the future I think he gonna be "just fine outside."

 

[bigbubbatd]

I haven´t seen anybody call Randall the best cover guy in the draft regardless of position. A link would be appreciated.

Mayock stated he was the best safety in coverage. Not sure if the person you are replying to implied he was better at coverage than all dbs in the draft.

Meanwhile, Mayock thinks Randall, and not Landon Collins, is the best safety in the 2015 NFL Draft class. He explained why:

"Randall is by far the best cover safety in the draft. Because of the way Arizona State plays defense, you can see him play a ton of man-to-man, which is so helpful (in evaluating him). He’s a guy that there’s been a lot of buzz about for the last month or so. He reminds me of Jimmy Ward, who was drafted in the first round last year by San Francisco. But he’s not as physical or as good a tackler as Ward."

http://www.bleedinggreennation.com/...ck-results-eagles-damarious-randall-20-safety