Clay Mathews is done.

[Mondio]

Both of those plays should absolutely be legal. If quarterbacks don't want to get tackled, they can play another sport. I totally understand egregiously late hits, hits that could be avoided after the ball was out and the like. But if a defender is in the process of tackling a throwing quarterback who happens to get the ball out, that should not be a flag. Both weeks, in every game I've watched, I've seen 15 yard penalties for normal football tackles. It's outrageous.

For crying out loud, it was in Mike Daniels' head today! He's so afraid of picking up 15 yards for a normal tackle that he let Cousins go just because the guy pump faked. It's trash.

The NFL is darn lucky that people love their product, because no other league is this horrible about creating rules that **** all over the fan experience.

I disagree to a point. This notion that QB's are fair game is great, this notion that QB's are fair game to take a free shot from everyone after the ball has left their hands is not. Like I said, I need to see the Kendricks one again because I only saw it live. Not sure if he took that extra step just because the"can" or if Rodgers was in the throwing motion like Cousins was.

and I swear they made this a point of emphasis years ago, but defenders can't drive QB's into the ground after they've thrown the ball. From what I remember Kendricks momentum should have put Rodgers sitting on his lap practically after hitting him and the ball was gone. But he, like Barr, changed the momentum, lifted a QB without a ball, left his feet and drove his shoulder right into his chest. Matthews' wasn't the same, i'm fairly certain on the tackle. I'm not so sure about leading up to it. LIke I said, I need to see that part again.

Everyone cheers, YAY, great hit. I'm sorry, it's a QB throwing a football, they aren't free punching bags and it's not a great tackle to hit someone completely unprotected. yeah, I get it they're football players, and unique ones. Of all the protections they get, I think this is one that should stick and get rid of the rest actually. I see nothing great about a football play that allows someone a free shot. That would be like being able to drive Kendricks in the back every single play once the runner has gone past him. I bet he whines like a school girl if that is allowed to happen. You can't hit them high and low, you can't initiate contact at the knees against these guys either, and I'm not talking about QB's. Let's not act like some pretty important rules haven't been put in place to protect the other guys on the field either.

 

[bigbubbatd]

Also people need to stop saying that the Clay flag happened because of reaction to the Barr hit last year. The refs said it wasn't called in light of that rule and would have been roughing last year

 

[Mondio]

Also people need to stop saying that the Clay flag happened because of reaction to the Barr hit last year. The refs said it wasn't called in light of that rule and would have been roughing last year

and their defense of the call only makes it worse. They were wrong, own it

 

[bigbubbatd]

and their defense of the call only makes it worse. They were wrong, own it

The league will admit it later this week when they also admit the Kendricks call was wrong, the missed interference call on Graham was wrong and the Adams offensive pass interference was wrong and maybe even the Lane Taylor hold was wrong when the Viking guy just fell to the ground. Maybe there will be some other missed calls for the Vikings I didnt notice. The league grades the games every week. This will be a fun one to see. Will they try to say the Kendricks call was right because it is part of the new rule - hopefully they own up and say it was wrong

 

[Dantés]

I disagree to a point. This notion that QB's are fair game is great, this notion that QB's are fair game to take a free shot from everyone after the ball has left their hands is not. Like I said, I need to see the Kendricks one again because I only saw it live. Not sure if he took that extra step just because the"can" or if Rodgers was in the throwing motion like Cousins was.

and I swear they made this a point of emphasis years ago, but defenders can't drive QB's into the ground after they've thrown the ball. From what I remember Kendricks momentum should have put Rodgers sitting on his lap practically after hitting him and the ball was gone. But he, like Barr, changed the momentum, lifted a QB without a ball, left his feet and drove his shoulder right into his chest. Matthews' wasn't the same, i'm fairly certain on the tackle. I'm not so sure about leading up to it. LIke I said, I need to see that part again.

Everyone cheers, YAY, great hit. I'm sorry, it's a QB throwing a football, they aren't free punching bags and it's not a great tackle to hit someone completely unprotected. yeah, I get it they're football players, and unique ones. Of all the protections they get, I think this is one that should stick and get rid of the rest actually. I see nothing great about a football play that allows someone a free shot. That would be like being able to drive Kendricks in the back every single play once the runner has gone past him. I bet he whines like a school girl if that is allowed to happen. You can't hit them high and low, you can't initiate contact at the knees against these guys either, and I'm not talking about QB's. Let's not act like some pretty important rules haven't been put in place to protect the other guys on the field either.

I said that. But the way they're calling it, they expect defenders to freeze mid-tackle. If you're going in to tackle a QB with the ball and he happens to get it out during the process of that tackle, too bad so sad for him. That's part of the game.

The "can't drive QB's into the ground" rule is just typical overly-nuanced NFL ********. They put such a fine point on these rules that no human being can possibly be expected to adjudicate the rule accurately. It's utter nonsense.

A quarterback with the ball is fair game. If he gets it out while the defender is in the process of the tackle, too bad. If he gets "driven" (whatever that means), welcome to the sport. If he throws it and a guy comes in late, then go ahead and throw the flag.

 

[Poppa San]

The league grades the games every week. This will be a fun one to see.

Where would the results be posted? Bring a link with you later this week.

 

[bigbubbatd]

Where would the results be posted? Bring a link with you later this week.

Maybe I am wrong. I have seen articles about the NFL admitting missed calls later in the week. Is that not typical?

 

[PackAttack12]

I was out of town dealing with other obligations yesterday and couldn't watch any of the game, but I did watch the 1st half offense last night and will watch the full game tonight.

And I fast forwarded to the Clay hit because I had to know what happened. Absolute trash of a call.

1. Was not a late hit
2. Didn't lead with the helmet into the chest
3. Didn't go high to the head, or low to the knees/ankles
4. Didn't drive Cousins into the turf, actually went out of his way to avoid that
5. Didn't land on Cousins with full body weight

Look - I'm all for protecting quarterbacks especially with what happened to Rodgers last year, but Clay said it best. This is getting out of hand. I honestly believe that officials are so afraid that they're going to miss a roughing call that they are out smarting themselves and misinterpreting the rule.

I know what was said after the game. The explanation was even more garbage than the call itself.

It's not very often that you can point to a call and say that a blown call cost a team the game, but that's precisely what happened in this instance. Yes, the Packers had ample opportunity before and after the call, but the play directly resulted in an interception that would have ended the game. And instead, it gave Minnesota life.

 

[Mondio]

I don't find it to be over nuanced ******** though. Kendricks could have easily made contact and stayed within the rules. Hard contact too. But he chose to change momentum pick him up, leave his feet and drive a shoulder. I'm absolutely fine with that being a penalty assuming he took that extra step after Rodgers threw the ball to make contact. Like I said, I need to see a replay. If he made contact while he was throwing the ball im probably ok with the play

They're cheap shots, always have been. I understand not being able to pull off from contact. That's not the issue. It's choosing to finish the tackle anyway against what amounts to an open tackling dummy.

Barr's cheap shot last year was a perfect example. He knew the ball was gone. Hard contact is fine. But he took two more steps with the qb in his arms and left his feet to finish it. It's cheap, always has been cheap. I thought these were supposed to be tough guys? Just think if they allowed them to clean up on linebackers after every play

 

[Dantés]

I don't find it to be over nuanced ******** though. Kendricks could have easily made contact and stayed within the rules. Hard contact too. But he chose to change momentum pick him up, leave his feet and drive a shoulder. I'm absolutely fine with that being a penalty assuming he took that extra step after Rodgers threw the ball to make contact. Like I said, I need to see a replay. If he made contact while he was throwing the ball im probably ok with the play

They're cheap shots, always have been. I understand not being able to pull off from contact. That's not the issue. It's choosing to finish the tackle anyway against what amounts to an open tackling dummy.

Barr's cheap shot last year was a perfect example. He knew the ball was gone. Hard contact is fine. But he took two more steps with the qb in his arms and left his feet to finish it. It's cheap, always has been cheap. I thought these were supposed to be tough guys? Just think if they allowed them to clean up on linebackers after every play

You’re asking the refs to base their calls on subjective details that are super hard to judge in the moment. Hence you have Corrente saying he threw the flag and cost the Packers the game because he Matthews lifted and drove when he actually didn’t. It’s stupid. Get rid of it.

 

[Mondio]

I think it's fairly obvious. But we ask them to call PI and holding and everything else. Get refs with better eyes.

The refs were getting now are so versed in player safety and to rely on replay I don't think they're able to trust their own eyes anymore

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

I know many of you hate instant replay, but the "simple" way to fix this, until the refs figure it out on their own, is to let someone up in the booth or NY actually look at the roughing the passer calls. I would have been just fine with a 2 minute bathroom break while that Matthews hit was reviewed.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

While we are on the subject of refereeing... I am so sick and tired of the "flinch" rule for illegal procedure or off sides. If a player isn't disciplined enough not to react to their opponents movements, tough sh*t. O-lineman should be penalized only if they don't know the count and start the play early and defensive players shouldn't be penalized unless they are off sides when the ball is snapped or make early contact before the snap.

 

[Jim Lite]

Also people need to stop saying that the Clay flag happened because of reaction to the Barr hit last year. The refs said it wasn't called in light of that rule and would have been roughing last year

“The refs said?” LOL.

Clay, the refs, and everyone knows that “kill the QB and win” has forever been part of the game; and D will always do what they think they can get away with to accomplish the mission. Matthews' hit on the Viking QB, legal or not, was obviously intended as payback.

As Joe Namath once said, “it's a nasty game.” The QB will always be in the cross hairs. That's how come, throughout his contract, AR will make at least $30,ooo per snap.

​

“Win any way as long as you can get away with it. Nice guys finish last.”

--Leo Durocher

 

[Dantés]

I think it's fairly obvious. But we ask them to call PI and holding and everything else. Get refs with better eyes.

The refs were getting now are so versed in player safety and to rely on replay I don't think they're able to trust their own eyes anymore

And as time goes on, we are asking them to call more and more subtle aspects of each play. It's impossible.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

And as time goes on, we are asking them to call more and more subtle aspects of each play. It's impossible.

Agreed. The refs wear Black and White, their calls should be such. All of these tweaking of rules has created way to much "open for judgement and interpretation" by each individual ref. Maybe its time to start dressing them in grey and blurring their faces while we are at it? With the speed of technology and the availability of multiple camera angles that we have today, I see no reason why these calls have to be left up to a guy who just didn't see the play the way it really happened.

I also find it hilarious that a coach can challenge if there were too many men on the field, a 5 yard penalty, but has no recourse when a critical call like the one against Matthews is made.

Another way to "fix" this problem is give each team the ability to use a challenge on plays such as this, if the "live" ref can't get it right, maybe someone else will.

 

[Mondio]

And as time goes on, we are asking them to call more and more subtle aspects of each play. It's impossible.

They don't need to study every subtlety I don't thjnk. If ball is gone and you take a step, you better be landing on your side if you're wrapping them up.

Get your hits, make your contact, but I'm glad they're getting rid of the cheap shots, because they've always been cheap. A Qb with the ball is different. Taking an extra step and being to play as if the qb still has the ball when you know it's gone is cheap.

Or keep it, and let olinemen clean the pile after every play

 

[Dantés]

They don't need to study every subtlety I don't thjnk. If ball is gone and you take a step, you better be landing on your side if you're wrapping them up.

Get your hits, make your contact, but I'm glad they're getting rid of the cheap shots, because they've always been cheap. A Qb with the ball is different. Taking an extra step and being to play as if the qb still has the ball when you know it's gone is cheap.

Or keep it, and let olinemen clean the pile after every play

It's easy to say that, but officials have proven time and again that they're incapable of this level of detail. And that's not a criticism of them. I genuinely think they're good at what they do, but what is being asked at the speed that this game is played is not realistic. And we can say to make everything reviewable, but at some point you have to stop reviewing everything.

Frankly, I think this game would be better if the league would revise the playbook to make rules as black and white as possible and get rid of all replay reviews.

 

[gbgary]

was ok yesterday. better than last week. game deciding call against him was terrible from the ref. didn't hit him high, or low, or pick him up, or drive him into the ground, or land on him with his body weight. in fact he even put his arm down to keep from landing on him with his body weight.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

For those who want another look at the call on Matthews, as well as his after game reaction to it:

Also, keep in mind that this look is in slow motion.

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/...-that-allowed-the-vikings-to-tie-the-packers/

 

[Mondio]

It's easy to say that, but officials have proven time and again that they're incapable of this level of detail. And that's not a criticism of them. I genuinely think they're good at what they do, but what is being asked at the speed that this game is played is not realistic. And we can say to make everything reviewable, but at some point you have to stop reviewing everything.

Frankly, I think this game would be better if the league would revise the playbook to make rules as black and white as possible and get rid of all replay reviews.

I'm fine getting rid of replays, they're contributing to refs that increasingly don't trust their own eyes and is changing how they view the game.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

I'm fine getting rid of replays, they're contributing to refs that increasingly don't trust their own eyes and is changing how they view the game.

I know your view on replay so we don't need to revisit it, but really it isn't a lack of a refs ability to trust their own eyes, its more of a lack of them not fully seeing the play or the way they want to interpret a strict judgement call, based on their opinion during that split second of do I throw the flag or not?

Hard to argue a face mask call, an off sides, illegal procedure, etc, when its clear it existed, but when it comes to strict judgment calls on "did he make the catch", "did he fumble the ball", "was it targeting", there is nothing wrong with the NFL admitting that it needs to be looked at closer and from more angles.

I would rather be "inconvenienced" for a minute or two, even several times a game, while they get the call right, then lose a game because people thinking doing so will make the game slow and boring.

 

[Dantés]

I'm fine getting rid of replays, they're contributing to refs that increasingly don't trust their own eyes and is changing how they view the game.

But to do that, you also need to get rid of a ton of the nuance in the rule book. The league thinks it can officiate all unfortunate outcomes out of the game. They can't. All they do is create collateral damage and lots of stoppages.

 

[bigbubbatd]

Insane. The league is saying both calls were correct. This is ridiculous

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.c...-penalty-as-a-teaching-tool-for-pass-rushers/

Here is a gem from the league

"The technique of grabbing the passer from behind the leg or legs, scooping and pulling in an upward motion, is a foul."

How do you not pull a guy upward when he is already elevating to throw the ball?

 

[XPack]

When has the league ever admitted it was wrong?

It was a textbook tackle and penalty was ridiculous. Hoope the refs get some instructions for future matches despite official posturing.