All Capers Threads merged

[Bus Cook]

Some coach, maybe Parcells said something about making chicken salad with chicken ****. Someone is buying bad chicken parts.

 

[13 Times Champs]

That's assuming they've got someone else to go in and do better. Right now the Packers don't.

So you are saying there can't possible be a better coach out there than Capers?? We're in deep doo-doo then.

 

[13 Times Champs]

and yet they all played injured which might negatively affect their play...

I think most players at this time of year have some nicks.

 

[Sunshinepacker]

I think most players at this time of year have some nicks.

Ok, then a drop in performance would then be expected from most players, yes? And since the defensive line is a position group that needs to be rotated on every team, the fact that we don't have any depth to rotate in would then exacerbate our players' performance. Hence, our run defense has fallen off a cliff. I mean it's either that or the players have just decided en masse to stop playing, which is hard to believe considering the number of free agents on our dline next year.

 

[13 Times Champs]

Ok, then a drop in performance would then be expected from most players, yes? And since the defensive line is a position group that needs to be rotated on every team, the fact that we don't have any depth to rotate in would then exacerbate our players' performance. Hence, our run defense has fallen off a cliff. I mean it's either that or the players have just decided en masse to stop playing, which is hard to believe considering the number of free agents on our dline next year.

I don't think you can use nicks as a reason performance has fallen off the cliff especially in that Detroit game. Before that yes some guys were out. But just maybe those guys who are up for free agency want to get away from Capers. Think about it. We've heard Raji say he wasn't happy with his role.

 

[Sunshinepacker]

I don't think you can use nicks as a reason performance has fallen off the cliff especially in that Detroit game. Before that yes some guys were out. But just maybe those guys who are up for free agency want to get away from Capers. Think about it. We've heard Raji say he wasn't happy with his role.

Pickett is the only NT on the team and Jolly is one of the more effective DEs on the team against the run. You think it's just coincidence that those two guys get banged up and our run defense suffers at the same time?

As for Raji, he doesn't want to play in a 3-4. He wants to rush the passer, not occupy blockers on first and second down. I'm not saying he's a bad guy for it, some guys don't have the temperment to sacrifice like that and you won't make as much money playing 3-4 end as you will playing dline in a 4-3.

As for guys wanting to get away from Capers, that's complete supposition. There has never been any statement from anyone that the players are unhappy with Capers. In fact there have been numerous players that have stated that Capers' schemes are just fine, it's simply players failing to make plays that's hurting the team. If the defense was unhappy with Capers why did Burnett and Matthews recently sign long term contracts? If Capers can keep players like those two but rubs an underachiever like Raji the wrong way, then that's a plus for Capers in my opinion.

 

[13 Times Champs]

Pickett is the only NT on the team and Jolly is one of the more effective DEs on the team against the run. You think it's just coincidence that those two guys get banged up and our run defense suffers at the same time?

As for Raji, he doesn't want to play in a 3-4. He wants to rush the passer, not occupy blockers on first and second down. I'm not saying he's a bad guy for it, some guys don't have the temperment to sacrifice like that and you won't make as much money playing 3-4 end as you will playing dline in a 4-3.

As for guys wanting to get away from Capers, that's complete supposition. There has never been any statement from anyone that the players are unhappy with Capers. In fact there have been numerous players that have stated that Capers' schemes are just fine, it's simply players failing to make plays that's hurting the team. If the defense was unhappy with Capers why did Burnett and Matthews recently sign long term contracts? If Capers can keep players like those two but rubs an underachiever like Raji the wrong way, then that's a plus for Capers in my opinion.

It's complete supposition that injuries were that big a factor in the Lion game as well. Do you really think a player would put their dissatisfaction with him out there? Matthews is a different animal. Burnett is lucky he got another contract. Capers has been one of Burnett's biggest defenders btw.

 

[TJV]

I don’t think we know what the players think of Capers and I really don’t care. They work more closely with their position coaches and even with regard to that relationship IMO respect is more important that whether or not they like them. Oftentimes players really like coaches that are too easy on them - I'm not saying that's what is going on in Green Bay but I think it makes the point that what the players think shouldn't matter much.

Capers does have a history of succeeding early in his tenure with a team and then seeing his defenses becoming less effective. I remember that being discussed when he was hired (I wasn't on this board at the time but I assume it was discussed here, too). I don’t think that should be ignored.

I don’t think a replacement has to be determined before someone is let go. When Thompson fired Sherman he had a list of candidates, including McCarthy and Sean Payton, in mind to interview. If Capers is fired or decides to retire, all that is necessary is to have a list of quality candidates in mind. Then see who is available and interview and analyze them. There is no assurance the replacement will be better than Capers, just as there was no assurance McCarthy would be better than Sherman. But I would expect a change at DC to breathe new life into the schemes and also add a little motivation to players whose spots are currently “secure”. Switching DCs isn't a cure all, but I think the time has come to get a fresh start on defense.

 

[rodell330]

It's complete supposition that injuries were that big a factor in the Lion game as well. Do you really think a player would put their dissatisfaction with him out there? Matthews is a different animal. Burnett is lucky he got another contract. Capers has been one of Burnett's biggest defenders btw.

Idk what's going on with these guy's but it needs to stop. Burnett showed flashes that he could be a top safety in this league then all of a sudden looks very sorry. Same could be said about Raji. Raji was a high draft pick and Burnett was taken early in the 2nd so i'd consider him a high draft pick as well. Nick Perry was another 1st rd pick who also shows flashes but then is either hurt or dissapears for stretches. The verdict is still out on Dhatone Jones but he hasn't had near the impact i thought he would have. Now how these guy's are being used or not falls on Capers and TT not just Dumb Dom. This team looks like it's needs to go defense in the 1st rd yet again after having basically trying to improve that side of the ball before.

 

[HardRightEdge]

There has never been any statement from anyone that the players are unhappy with Capers.

That's not quite true. After last year's SF playoff debacle, Woodson was outspoken about no adjustments being made at halftime. It's hard to think this did not play some part in Woodson being fired with no offer of a pay cut.

 

[rodell330]

I don’t think we know what the players think of Capers and I really don’t care. They work more closely with their position coaches and even with regard to that relationship IMO respect is more important that whether or not they like them. Oftentimes players really like coaches that are too easy on them - I'm not saying that's what is going on in Green Bay but I think it makes the point that what the players think shouldn't matter much.

Capers does have a history of succeeding early in his tenure with a team and then seeing his defenses becoming less effective. I remember that being discussed when he was hired (I wasn't on this board at the time but I assume it was discussed here, too). I don’t think that should be ignored.

I don’t think a replacement has to be determined before someone is let go. When Thompson fired Sherman he had a list of candidates, including McCarthy and Sean Payton, in mind to interview. If Capers is fired or decides to retire, all that is necessary is to have a list of quality candidates in mind. Then see who is available and interview and analyze them. There is no assurance the replacement will be better than Capers, just as there was no assurance McCarthy would be better than Sherman. But I would expect a change at DC to breathe new life into the schemes and also add a little motivation to players whose spots are currently “secure”. Switching DCs isn't a cure all, but I think the time has come to get a fresh start on defense.

This defense needed a "fresh start" two seasons ago. Sticking with the same guy and still being pretty bad on that side of the ball is beyond me. Maybe Dom doesn't really have any pressure from MM or TT to improve his defense..who knows?

 

[rodell330]

That's not quite true. After last year's SF playoff debacle, Woodson was outspoken about no adjustments being made at halftime. It's hard to think this did not play some part in Woodson being fired with no offer of a pay cut.

Exactly my thought's...

 

[Sunshinepacker]

That's not quite true. After last year's SF playoff debacle, Woodson was outspoken about no adjustments being made at halftime. It's hard to think this did not play some part in Woodson being fired with no offer of a pay cut.

And yet an in depth analysis of the actual defense that the Packers played against the 49ers shows that the PLAYERS were the guys ******** up. Most of the time the defense called was perfectly fine against the play, however guys like Walden, Burnett, Matthews, Raji, etc were being completely destroyed or not maintaining discipline on defense. So should Capers have begun calling defensive plays that aren't appropriate against that offense in the hopes that his players could screw up further and luck into something?

 

[TJV]

This defense needed a "fresh start" two seasons ago. Sticking with the same guy and still being pretty bad on that side of the ball is beyond me.

Two years ago Capers was coming off a season in which his defense was second in points surrendered and 5th in yards. And of course it was good enough to win a title. The next year, the wheels came off due in part IMO to the career-ending injury to Nick Collins suffered in September of 2011. I think it was reasonable to give Capers another year, so the earliest it would have sense to fire him IMO would have been at the end of last season when his D finished 11th in yards and 22nd in points surrendered.

But we should also acknowledge that the defense was playing better earlier this year. Its dramatic ‘fall off the cliff’ coincides with Rodgers' absence but IMO can't be explained solely by that absence.

 

[Carl]

And yet an in depth analysis of the actual defense that the Packers played against the 49ers shows that the PLAYERS were the guys ******** up. Most of the time the defense called was perfectly fine against the play, however guys like Walden, Burnett, Matthews, Raji, etc were being completely destroyed or not maintaining discipline on defense. So should Capers have begun calling defensive plays that aren't appropriate against that offense in the hopes that his players could screw up further and luck into something?

Maybe Capers told Walden to bite on the fake on Kaepernick's long TD run also....

 

[adambr2]

Here's a question, then, for those fans of Capers or those who think the players are the only ones that matter.

How does Rob Ryan come to New Orleans this year, instill a new 3-4 defense, and turn a horrifically bad defense into one of the best in the league, all the while Capers is still trying to figure it out 5 years later in Green Bay? Please don't say injuries -- the Saints have had plenty this year on defense as well. Is it the coaching or is it the drafting?

You can say "the players are good enough and the coaching is good enough and the schemes are good enough but the players are not executing"......for a couple games. You don't just "fail to execute" in 2 straight divisional playoff games, 5 straight regular season games, etc. Eventually you have to consider that either A) your players are just not nearly as good as you think they are, or B) your players are unlikely to succeed in your scheme or with your coaching, due to any number of factors -- it is too complex for them, they fail to motivate, they are outdated, or fail to adjust from a rigid gameplan. It could be any of those, none of these, or a combination.

I can't be convinced that coaching and scheme doesn't matter. Especially when you invest multiple high draft picks in defense and still regress.

I also can't understand any argument based on the premise that players are the ones making plays. Don't get me wrong -- I think execution is certainly a big part of what's wrong, but we're looking at a pretty big sample size. I think we are all very well aware that no offensive and defensive coordinators are going to be suiting up and fumbling the football or biting on play-action. This does not mean they are all equally effective.

 

[Carl]

Here's a question, then, for those fans of Capers or those who think the players are the only ones that matter.

How does Rob Ryan come to New Orleans this year, instill a new 3-4 defense, and turn a horrifically bad defense into one of the best in the league, all the while Capers is still trying to figure it out 5 years later in Green Bay? Please don't say injuries -- the Saints have had plenty this year on defense as well. Is it the coaching or is it the drafting?

You can say "the players are good enough and the coaching is good enough and the schemes are good enough but the players are not executing"......for a couple games. You don't just "fail to execute" in 2 straight divisional playoff games, 5 straight regular season games, etc. Eventually you have to consider that either A) your players are just not nearly as good as you think they are, or B) your players are unlikely to succeed in your scheme or with your coaching, due to any number of factors -- it is too complex for them, they fail to motivate, they are outdated, or fail to adjust from a rigid gameplan. It could be any of those, none of these, or a combination.

I can't be convinced that coaching and scheme doesn't matter. Especially when you invest multiple high draft picks in defense and still regress.

I also can't understand any argument based on the premise that players are the ones making plays. Don't get me wrong -- I think execution is certainly a big part of what's wrong, but we're looking at a pretty big sample size. I think we are all very well aware that no offensive and defensive coordinators are going to be suiting up and fumbling the football or biting on play-action. This does not mean they are all equally effective.

I can disagree and say that the scheme was not the problem in the games you just mentioned. Not saying anything else about coaching, just the scheme.

Just looking at the last five games:
Bears: No idea who was at fault. Mostly just remember worrying about Rodgers all game.
Eagles: All three TD's were on the players lack of execution.
Giants: 20 defensive points allowed. Not a bad game.
Vikings: Stacked the box and they still ran well. That's on the players.
Lions: Stacked the box and they still ran well. That's on the players. When Calvin Johnson somehow runs free, that's on the players. I know Capers didn't plan on leaving him wide open. I think anytime a team gives up 500+ yards, there are massive player mistakes and the offense made it very, very ******* the defense by never keeping the ball long.

Giants playoff game: Hail mary was on the players. Fumble that gave the Giants the ball inside the 10 was on the offense and three other turnovers that gave the Giants many other chances. Even if the other 23 points was on the scheme, that's not a bad day.

49ers playoff game: Just like with the Lions game, whenever a team gives up that many yards, I think there are massive player mistakes. When a player runs over 100 yards untouched, that's on the players.

Again, not saying anything about coaching other than the scheme. Maybe the coaches aren't good at showing techniques or preparing players. I don't know. I just think player mistakes were the problems in those games (which could be on the coaches), not the scheme.

 

[adambr2]

Fair enough, Carl. I'm open-minded about this. I don't hate Capers -- I simply want to fix what has clearly become a problem here.

With that said, this is Capers' 5th season here and I'd be lying if I didn't say my patience is wearing thin. It's hard for me to hear all this fluff from the team about how good Burnett is, how big of a year Hawk is having, how good Shields can cover, how great Neal looks as an OLB, how improved the D-line is, how they trust Jennings and McMillian, and see no results translate.

Frankly, Ed Donatell was fired for a lot less.

 

[Carl]

Fair enough, Carl. I'm open-minded about this. I don't hate Capers -- I simply want to fix what has clearly become a problem here.

With that said, this is Capers' 5th season here and I'd be lying if I didn't say my patience is wearing thin. It's hard for me to hear all this fluff from the team about how good Burnett is, how big of a year Hawk is having, how good Shields can cover, how great Neal looks as an OLB, how improved the D-line is, how they trust Jennings and McMillian, and see no results translate.

Frankly, Ed Donatell was fired for a lot less.

I would guess that it's a combination of a few issues. It could be Capers. Maybe he's not good at teaching the scheme so the players don't understand it. I just don't think the scheme itself is the problem.

 

[greenNyellow]

What ever happened to that defense Capers ran in our super bowl year. I don't remember the name, but I remember it succeeding a lot. They would have like 2 linemen and 5 lb's and they would all be moving around the line standing up before the snap. You would never know who was coming on a blitz. I really liked that defense.

 

[adambr2]

I would guess that it's a combination of a few issues. It could be Capers. Maybe he's not good at teaching the scheme so the players don't understand it. I just don't think the scheme itself is the problem.

This would explain why, seemingly at least once per game, players are looking confused and/or pointing just prior to the play, typically followed by a blown coverage.

 

[HardRightEdge]

Two years ago Capers was coming off a season in which his defense was second in points surrendered and 5th in yards. And of course it was good enough to win a title. The next year, the wheels came off due in part IMO to the career-ending injury to Nick Collins suffered in September of 2011. I think it was reasonable to give Capers another year, so the earliest it would have sense to fire him IMO would have been at the end of last season when his D finished 11th in yards and 22nd in points surrendered.

But we should also acknowledge that the defense was playing better earlier this year. Its dramatic ‘fall off the cliff’ coincides with Rodgers' absence but IMO can't be explained solely by that absence.

It goes a lot further than losing Collins.

- Jenkins was let go with no suitable replacement.
- Woodson did not return to form after breaking his collarbone in the Super Bowl.
- Tramon Williams broke his collarbone in week 1 of 2011, an injury from which he's still not fully recovered, judging from his conversion from a press-coverage guy to an off-coverage guy coupled with his lackluster tackling.

In my opinion, Woodson's 2010 season was even better than his DPOY 2009 season; Collins was a Pro Bowl player in 2010; Williams was the Pro Bowl first alternate at CB in 2010 and landed a big contract as the high-second-tier cover corner he was that season.

So, we permanently lost one Pro Bowler. Two other stars fell to ordinary status due to injury, with Woodson projected to twilight-safety duty before the season was out. And we lost a very productive 3-down DE/DT swing man.

And for reasons that are still not fully explained beyond the "Super Bowl hangover" affect, Raji's and Hawk's performances in 2011 fell far short of their best career seasons in 2010.

Conclusion: Capers D worked well when he had an accomplished, healthy, veteran group of playmakers at the peak of their talents. Not so well since. This might fall into the "that's all to be expected" category, except for the fact the defense fell into "business decision" play as soon as Rodgers went down. That needs to be laid at the feet of the coaches.

I find suspect the argument that Capers has to rely on the position coaches who should bear the brunt. An NFL defensive squad is comprised of about 30 players including the PS guys. There's a DC and 6 position coaches. That's a ratio of 7 chiefs to 30 Indians. Any leader/"supervisor" working under that ratio should be hands-on to a large degree. Either he is and is failing, or he isn't and is in dereliction of duty. Choose your poison.

 

[Oshkoshpackfan]

What ever happened to that defense Capers ran in our super bowl year. I don't remember the name, but I remember it succeeding a lot. They would have like 2 linemen and 5 lb's and they would all be moving around the line standing up before the snap. You would never know who was coming on a blitz. I really liked that defense.

That was called the "psycho" defense. It was not used all the time. Basic defensive formations were used for the bulk of the time. That psycho blitz package was employed when it was needed, and it confused the O linemen, and the QB. They didn't know who to block, who was coming on the blitz, who was dropping into coverage and most of all where was clay coming from? It worked when it was used, but you can't do that every play. I can agree that we need some type of confusion type blitz package, our current stuff is so easy to see that even the worst QB's we have played can make the adjustments and so can the O line, they just see that plain ol vanilla stuff coming from a mile away. I agree it is time for a change, we need someone who is willing to change with the times. Capers old scheme is just that, old. New life needs to be pumped into this dead defense like a blood transfusion.

 

[Sunshinepacker]

I think people need to go back and look at who the Packers played when Rodgers was healthy and who we've played since. The defense is only giving up 6 more points a game despite playing MUCH better offenses. With Rodgers we played three teams ranked 20th or worse on offense and a Lions team minus Calvin Johnson. Since Rodgers got hurt we've played three top eight offenses.

I'm not sure the players have given up, in fact they've played pretty well relative to early season peformance. Difference is that the offense isn't scoring and the injuries are taking a toll.

 

[Lakedog]

Hey sunshine- You're making my point. Our D was Top 5 after the first five games: Niners, Skins, Cincy, Lions! & Ravens. Since... Browns, Vyqueens, Da Bears, Eagles, Giants! (omg), Vyqueens again! & Lions. Now our D is ranked in the 20's... it's an average. Which means we've gone to dead last or near dead last in Oct & Nov. Against crap teams our D is getting blown out. Who are those Top Offenses again? You do realize that our crappy D helped their stats, right?!