Who do you want to see in the Super Bowl?

[Voyageur]

I wonder if Ringo ever wrestled in high school. He was very quick off the ball. DLs were late because he hit them so fast. And he took on middle linebackers consistently. What was so sad was that he developed dementia earlier than most. Jerry Kramer related a visit he had with Ringo later on in one of his books. It brought tears to your eyes.

Back when Ringo was playing, it was a common practice for defensive linemen to use head slaps to gain an advantage over offensive linemen, particularly centers. It was made illegal in I believe 1977. It was amazing how many times a player would get his "bell rung" with plays like that, and in a lot of cases, it wasn't diagnosed, but was a concussion. I had it happened to me several times in HS. A couple of times, I had to be pulled out of the game until I got my head cleared enough to go back in.

The worst slaps were when the defensive player smacked the side of the helmet, over the ear hole, as hard as they could, causing both impact, and air being forced into the ear. You could be dazed repeatedly in a game.

Ringo suffered that abuse constantly, being an offensive center. It was a horrible problem to be honest. What bothered me most is how fans and some players were whining their heads off that it was part of football, and a contact sport. A dumb position to take on it, in my opinion. I'd say that Jim Ringo, and his family, would have certainly agreed. At one time, football was barbaric in many ways.

 

[milani]

And I remember the sweeps they ran and just how incredibly fast those linemen pulled. The opponent DLinemen were mostly rushing after air as the real action had moved left or right of center, in the blink an eye.

It surprises me that with the athleticism of today's OLinemen we don't see more sweeps. Linemen will pull and stunt to open gaps, but the true sweep seems rare.

Defenses got better getting to the outside as the years went in. The Packers because of the versatile blocking of their line and TE were able to counter with trap plays up the middle and off tackle. So it was hard to key on that. Starr was one who was adept at changing the play even then. Today, most QBs are very agile and are a weapon in themselves. I am surprised still to see how teams in shotgun with a single back run so well up the middle. The RPO forces defenses to look in several places whether it be an outside run or between the tackles using either the QB or the RB. Or they can pull it down and throw it. As defenses started to try and beat offenses to the outside faster, quicker backs evolved who could cut back which added another dimension to the sweep.

 

[Heyjoe4]

Back when Ringo was playing, it was a common practice for defensive linemen to use head slaps to gain an advantage over offensive linemen, particularly centers. It was made illegal in I believe 1977. It was amazing how many times a player would get his "bell rung" with plays like that, and in a lot of cases, it wasn't diagnosed, but was a concussion. I had it happened to me several times in HS. A couple of times, I had to be pulled out of the game until I got my head cleared enough to go back in.

The worst slaps were when the defensive player smacked the side of the helmet, over the ear hole, as hard as they could, causing both impact, and air being forced into the ear. You could be dazed repeatedly in a game.

Ringo suffered that abuse constantly, being an offensive center. It was a horrible problem to be honest. What bothered me most is how fans and some players were whining their heads off that it was part of football, and a contact sport. A dumb position to take on it, in my opinion. I'd say that Jim Ringo, and his family, would have certainly agreed. At one time, football was barbaric in many ways.

Seems like it's been pretty recent that the NFL started to take concussions seriously - maybe the last 10 years. It started with the discovery of CTE which led to a much needed concussion protocol. No way Favre get that continuous start record in this NFL.

That doesn't change the violence of the game. Changes to the rules and people spotting players for signs of concussion have helped. But it's always gonna be a sport where serious injury is just a play away. And even with the concussion protocol, it won't change the long term damage of repeated hits to the head. I imagine some day medical science will determine a threshold for the number and type of concussions a player can take - predicting the likelihood of something like CTE. Even if it's giving a player a choice to quit or accept the risk, it would be an improvement.

Or maybe they can come up with some way to predict the likelihood of CTE. Sounds like science fiction, but who knows?

 

[OldSchool101]

I

Obviously, defining 'dynasties' is tricky (and I'm not sure when you say you've been waiting if you mean just for another Packer streak). Certainly, some combination of X wins over Y years.

The Pack's 5 for 7 championships in the '60s is obviously the best. But, the Steelers were 4/6, the 49ers 5/13, and KC is now 3/5. Even the 'Boys were 5/24 (more impressively, 3/4). Heck, the Pats won six, but it took them 17 years.

I agree. I will point out that the Pats were winners 3/4. KC has a chance at 3 in a row next year. Hopefully we’ll be there to make sure it doesn’t happen as that would put them top Dog.

Obviously all teams are progressing and regressing. Although I’m going to argue that the Packers have the “most dynamic immediate future” award. The Texans are a close Runner Up. I’m looking across our Offense and expecting 1-2 more upgrades brought in via draft/FA. Not to mention someone from the young guys exploding.
It really all depends on our Defense. If we get anywhere into that Top 8 area (scoring) or better we’ll be an immediate problem in the NFC. Obviously I’ve been saying that for 4 years now, so take it with a grain of salt!

 

[Thirteen Below]

You are correct. Particularly the Offensive line. The Packer line in Lombardi's first 6 seasons was extremely dominant especially in the run game. They were quick, precise, explosive, and so skilled in the art of blocking.

And that, as I know you're aware, was all Lombardi. He understood better than anyone that the offensive line was what won you a football game; that if your O line cound control the game, you were pretty close to unbeatable. He worked that line mercilessly, driving them like mules until every single one of them was perfect on every single assignment, every single time. They would run that sweep for hours on end some days, until the muscle memory was so carved in stone they couldn't mess it up even if they'd tried.

John Roach, who backed up Starr for 2 or 3 years in the early 60s before Zeke Bratkowski, said this to to Packer historian Cliff Christl about 20 years ago, and it's just one of hundreds of similar reminiscences from Packer players of the Lombardi Era....

"I told Lombardi this when I got there. When (Cleveland coach) Paul Brown told me I was traded to Green Bay, he said, 'They've got a line that gets off that ball better than anybody I've ever seen.' Every one of them was in sync. We'd practice on that sled where there were five blocking places. Lombardi would get on that sled and the quarterback would call the snap. The linemen would hit that sled and Lombardi wanted them to do it in unison, as one entity, not five. When they did, he'd just holler and (the linemen) loved it because he would be so positive toward them. That was Lombardi. They hit that sled and they hit that sled every day. And if somebody was slow off the ball, they got screamed at. So when they lined up, they knew they better hit that thing when the ball was snapped. And then they did it in the games."

It's interesting, I was just listening to a recent podcast a couple of houes ago... not sure if it was Aaron Nagler or Peter Bukowski, but the topic was "Why are the Green Bay Packers an offensive line factory?" As in, why and how do the Packers keep taking 4th, 5th, 6th and 7th Round offensive lineman and turning them into All-Pro monsters? The guest was Marshall Newhouse (who is really an interesting, insightful, and articulate guy, as are many offensive linemen). Newhouse's take largely came down to, when you come to play in Green Bay, you're stepping into an organizational culture that places maximum value on O-line excellence.

It's just expected that the O-line will overachieve and excel regardless of their draft posiiton, and the coaching staff has been mentored and taught how to coach young players to do that no matter which day they were drafted. It's a prioriity that has just been passed down and woven into the fabric of how to be a Packer. One of the reasons I'm still so damned proud of this team; they understand how to win football games, and they're still doing it right 60 years later.

 

[milani]

Seems like it's been pretty recent that the NFL started to take concussions seriously - maybe the last 10 years. It started with the discovery of CTE which led to a much needed concussion protocol. No way Favre get that continuous start record in this NFL.

That doesn't change the violence of the game. Changes to the rules and people spotting players for signs of concussion have helped. But it's always gonna be a sport where serious injury is just a play away. And even with the concussion protocol, it won't change the long term damage of repeated hits to the head. I imagine some day medical science will determine a threshold for the number and type of concussions a player can take - predicting the likelihood of something like CTE. Even if it's giving a player a choice to quit or accept the risk, it would be an improvement.

Or maybe they can come up with some way to predict the likelihood of CTE. Sounds like science fiction, but who knows?

So true. Although Ringo passed a little younger there was also Willie Wood and Paul Hornung who suffered with the dementia before they went on. Speaking of Favre, recall when he took that whack against the Giants and went out for a play? He ran back on the field, broke the huddle, and fired a TD pass. Back on the sidelines he was diagnosed with a concussion and had to watch the rest of the game.

 

[Thirteen Below]

Speaking of Favre, recall when he took that whack against the Giants and went out for a play? He ran back on the field, broke the huddle, and fired a TD pass. Back on the sidelines he was diagnosed with a concussion and had to watch the rest of the game.

Not only that, it was a 4th down. If I recall correctly, he said afterward that he didn't even remember doing it.

 

[milani]

Not only that, it was a 4th down. If I recall correctly, he said afterward that he didn't even remember doing it.

All joking aside he could forget all the TDs he threw. On the scoreboard they were worth 6 points each.

 

[Heyjoe4]

So true. Although Ringo passed a little younger there was also Willie Wood and Paul Hornung who suffered with the dementia before they went on. Speaking of Favre, recall when he took that whack against the Giants and went out for a play? He ran back on the field, broke the huddle, and fired a TD pass. Back on the sidelines he was diagnosed with a concussion and had to watch the rest of the game.

That was the NFCCG in GB, right - around 2008 maybe? It was very cold, the ground was very hard. But I saw him takes many hits to the head that would take him out of the game today.

Maybe the differences today are 1) that there is a protocol that players must pass before returning and 2) the NFL has spotters looking for signs a player may have been concussed.

This is certainly much better than before. It still doesn't take the danger out of football. And it was only last year that Tua T was playing when he clearly had no good reason to be on the field.

I hopen that medical science can develop some type of test, as they have for dementia, that a player is on the edge of developing CTE later in life, or being adversely affected by the condition. Dementia is bad enough. CTE is about as awful when the suicides, depression are factored in.

 

[Heyjoe4]

And that, as I know you're aware, was all Lombardi. He understood better than anyone that the offensive line was what won you a football game; that if your O line cound control the game, you were pretty close to unbeatable. He worked that line mercilessly, driving them like mules until every single one of them was perfect on every single assignment, every single time. They would run that sweep for hours on end some days, until the muscle memory was so carved in stone they couldn't mess it up even if they'd tried.

John Roach, who backed up Starr for 2 or 3 years in the early 60s before Zeke Bratkowski, said this to to Packer historian Cliff Christl about 20 years ago, and it's just one of hundreds of similar reminiscences from Packer players of the Lombardi Era....



It's interesting, I was just listening to a recent podcast a couple of houes ago... not sure if it was Aaron Nagler or Peter Bukowski, but the topic was "Why are the Green Bay Packers an offensive line factory?" As in, why and how do the Packers keep taking 4th, 5th, 6th and 7th Round offensive lineman and turning them into All-Pro monsters? The guest was Marshall Newhouse (who is really an interesting, insightful, and articulate guy, as are many offensive linemen). Newhouse's take largely came down to, when you come to play in Green Bay, you're stepping into an organizational culture that places maximum value on O-line excellence.

It's just expected that the O-line will overachieve and excel regardless of their draft posiiton, and the coaching staff has been mentored and taught how to coach young players to do that no matter which day they were drafted. It's a prioriity that has just been passed down and woven into the fabric of how to be a Packer. One of the reasons I'm still so damned proud of this team; they understand how to win football games, and they're still doing it right 60 years later.

Good points 13. I always wondered about this, but yeah, it's tradition and institutional knowledge that's passed down. And athletes doing repetitive tasks can have muscle memory trained into them. I ran marathons, a few under three hours, and I practiced race pace over and over and over. I could tell you within 2 seconds +- how fast I ran a mile without a watch. Dialed it in on race day, and then at mile 23 or so, just wanted it to be over!

I digress, sorry. But yeah, look at Walker and Tom. Two guys who started out questionable became solid, especially Tom, after some time practicing and playing in GB. That is certainly a contributing factor into this run of great QB play.

 

[milani]

That was the NFCCG in GB, right - around 2008 maybe? It was very cold, the ground was very hard. But I saw him takes many hits to the head that would take him out of the game today.

Maybe the differences today are 1) that there is a protocol that players must pass before returning and 2) the NFL has spotters looking for signs a player may have been concussed.

This is certainly much better than before. It still doesn't take the danger out of football. And it was only last year that Tua T was playing when he clearly had no good reason to be on the field.

I hopen that medical science can develop some type of test, as they have for dementia, that a player is on the edge of developing CTE later in life, or being adversely affected by the condition. Dementia is bad enough. CTE is about as awful when the suicides, depression are factored in.

Actually, it was a regular season game in 2004 I believe. It was very, very windy as I recall. And we lost the game like 14-7. If Favre had been able to stay in the game we probably win or go to OT.

 

[Heyjoe4]

Actually, it was a regular season game in 2004 I believe. It was very, very windy as I recall. And we lost the game like 14-7. If Favre had been able to stay in the game we probably win or go to OT.

Thanks for the correction milani. Favre certainly took some shots in his career.

 

[Thirteen Below]

Actually, it was a regular season game in 2004 I believe. It was very, very windy as I recall. And we lost the game like 14-7. If Favre had been able to stay in the game we probably win or go to OT.

It was early October in Lambeau, a beautiful fall day. 2004.

Boy, my memory sucks the closer I get to 70. For 20 years, I've been positive that was against the Redskins. Whenever I think of the game, I picture him throwing the ball against a team wearing Redskin uniforms! lol! It's funny how your memory plays tricks on you when it has a different way of looking at things.

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[milani]

Thanks for the correction milani. Favre certainly took some shots in his career.

And was back starting the next game.

 

[milani]

It was early October in Lambeau, a beautiful fall day. 2004.

Boy, my memory sucks the closer I get to 70. For 20 years, I've been positive that was against the Redskins. Whenever I think of the game, I picture him throwing the ball against a team wearing Redskin uniforms! lol! It's funny how your memory plays tricks on you when it has a different way of looking at things.

You must be logged in to see this image or video!

What was vivid was Coughlin on the sideline for the Giants. Our defense sucked that year under Slowik but we still held them to 14 points. The wind made passing the aerials difficult. And hard to kick FGs. I do recall the RB for the Giants running a routine handoff and at least half of our defense had him but let him slip right through our fingers. Horrific tackling. In the last minute Sherman put in the 3rd string QB who had a great arm. He hit a long one and we were within a throw of the end zone but we could not get downfield to spike it.

 

[Thirteen Below]

What was vivid was Coughlin on the sideline for the Giants. Our defense sucked that year under Slowik but we still held them to 14 points. The wind made passing the aerials difficult. And hard to kick FGs. I do recall the RB for the Giants running a routine handoff and at least half of our defense had him but let him slip right through our fingers. Horrific tackling. In the last minute Sherman put in the 3rd string QB who had a great arm. He hit a long one and we were within a throw of the end zone but we could not get downfield to spike it.

Aw, see, your memory of that game is clearly so much more comprehensive than mine. I hardly remember the game at all - mostly just the play itself, and the fact that it was one of those breathtakingly beautiful October days that make you believe the gods specifically created days like that for the Packers to play football at Lambeau. In fact, the way I remembered it is that we won the game!

You have a great nemory.

 

[milani]

Aw, see, your memory of that game is clearly so much more comprehensive than mine. I hardly remember the game at all - mostly just the play itself, and the fact that it was one of those breathtakingly beautiful October days that make you believe the gods specifically created days like that for the Packers to play football at Lambeau. In fact, the way I remembered it is that we won the game!

You have a great nemory.

Does the name Craig Nall ring a bell? He was the 3rd stringer behind Doug Pederson and Favre that season. Before Rodgers was drafted in the TT regime the Packers were looking at some young arms to draft. Not because Favre had lost it but that he hinted around that the day would come when someone else would be under center. And he even said he did not think he would finish his last contract. After 3 tough playoff losses in a row Brett was somewhat down in the dumps and it was hard to tell if he really would hang them up. Anyway, Nall had the arm which Pederson did not. So they had nothing to lose from that point on the field with under a minute. After all it was Favre who launched a long ball to Kitrick Taylor in the last minute in 1992 when he had to come in and fill Majik Man shoes.

 

[Heyjoe4]

It was early October in Lambeau, a beautiful fall day. 2004.

Boy, my memory sucks the closer I get to 70. For 20 years, I've been positive that was against the Redskins. Whenever I think of the game, I picture him throwing the ball against a team wearing Redskin uniforms! lol! It's funny how your memory plays tricks on you when it has a different way of looking at things.

You must be logged in to see this image or video!

I understand 13. I'll be 70 in October and I could have sworn he knocked his head in that frozen NFCCG against the Giants at Lambeau.

I thought he was concussed while playing with the Vikes. The Metrodome was demolished and the US Bank stadium was being built and they played outside for one season. I thought Favre was there that year and hit his head on the frozen field. Maybe someone can confirm or deny.

 

[milani]

I understand 13. I'll be 70 in October and I could have sworn he knocked his head in that frozen NFCCG against the Giants at Lambeau.

I thought he was concussed while playing with the Vikes. The Metrodome was demolished and the US Bank stadium was being built and they played outside for one season. I thought Favre was there that year and hit his head on the frozen field. Maybe someone can confirm or deny.

The frozen game against the Giants did not see him get bashed in the head. He was alive and throwing that season ending INT in that one.
Against the Redskins he was sacked by LaVar Arrington I believe and was carted off with a leg injury. Doug Pederson got the save. Since we had a bye he was back out there with a leg boot to play 15 days later. That occurred about 5 years earlier.
Now late in his swan song season in 2010 he did get taken down at U of Minnesota stadium outdoors in the cold which forced him to finally miss a start with the Vikings. I believe it was against the Bears. Joe Webb started the " snow " cancelation game in Philly the next week. Vikings could have put Favre on the shelf but he made his final start in Washington that season.

 

[Heyjoe4]

The frozen game against the Giants did not see him get bashed in the head. He was alive and throwing that season ending INT in that one.
Against the Redskins he was sacked by LaVar Arrington I believe and was carted off with a leg injury. Doug Pederson got the save. Since we had a bye he was back out there with a leg boot to play 15 days later. That occurred about 5 years earlier.
Now late in his swan song season in 2010 he did get taken down at U of Minnesota stadium outdoors in the cold which forced him to finally miss a start with the Vikings. I believe it was against the Bears. Joe Webb started the " snow " cancelation game in Philly the next week. Vikings could have put Favre on the shelf but he made his final start in Washington that season.

Thanks for another history lesson! I thought they were playing outside and that's about all I remember. And yeah, in the NFCCG in the extreme cold against the Giants, he only played like he was concussed......

 

[rmontro]

in the NFCCG in the extreme cold against the Giants, he only played like he was concussed......

Or maybe just very cold. Is a touch of hyperthermia out of the question?

 

[Thirteen Below]

Or maybe just very cold. Is a touch of hyperthermia out of the question?

I wouldn't rule it out. One thing I clearly remember is by the 4th quarter, he looked like a man who absolutely did not to be out there anymore. He looked throughly miserable.

 

[Thirteen Below]

Ringo suffered that abuse constantly, being an offensive center. It was a horrible problem to be honest. What bothered me most is how fans and some players were whining their heads off that it was part of football, and a contact sport. A dumb position to take on it, in my opinion. I'd say that Jim Ringo, and his family, would have certainly agreed. At one time, football was barbaric in many ways.

It really was. Almost gladitorial. I think it was a reflection of the generation - this was the generation who grew up during the Depression and the war, and life had been brutally hard since they were kids. Pain and discomfort didn't faze them, it was just life. You put it behind you and got to work. Nobody'd ever think to complain, because the same thing was happening to everyone else, and if nobody else was going to ***** about it they sure as hell ween't going to be the first ones.

I have to admit, there were some things I liked about that attitude. But yeah, it clearly was destructive and toxic.

 

[Heyjoe4]

Or maybe just very cold. Is a touch of hyperthermia out of the question?

Hell no and good point. Being outside in that kind of weather for that long must mess with a person's ability to think straight - well outside of just surviving. It's hard to tell with Favre because he threw so many pics in his career.

 

[milani]

Hell no and good point. Being outside in that kind of weather for that long must mess with a person's ability to think straight - well outside of just surviving. It's hard to tell with Favre because he threw so many pics in his career.

Eli and the Giants seemed to handle it well. Plexico Burress had a solid outing. The one Giant who struggled was their kicker who finally won it on the 3rd try which was understandable. We just could not run the ball the way we did the previous week.