Who do you want to see in the Super Bowl?

[milani]

Didn't the Braves win their division like 11 times in a row before the recent re-alignment?

I never figured why people use this as an excuse as every team could've had the same stacked roster if teams were so few.

No free agency had an impact if you could corner player acquisition. In hockey, for instance, the Montreal Canadiens, for some reason, had first rights to sign players from their province in Canada. How that happened I do not know. And it finally ended years later. Now all the league's can tap in to players anywhere in the world pretty much.

 

[Voyageur]

No free agency had an impact if you could corner player acquisition. In hockey, for instance, the Montreal Canadiens, for some reason, had first rights to sign players from their province in Canada. How that happened I do not know. And it finally ended years later. Now all the league's can tap in to players anywhere in the world pretty much.

This article tells a little bit about why the Montreal hockey team was comprised of French-Canadian players. That's about all I can say about that, being of French-Canadian descent. The attached article tells some of the story, not all of it.

Is There a Deep Split between French and English Canada? | AHA

www.historians.org

 

[AmishMafia]

I never figured why people use this as an excuse as every team could've had the same stacked roster if teams were so few.

Building better than 12 other teams is easier than building better than 31 teams.

 

[Heyjoe4]

Agreed on never in Chicago. I kind of feel the same way about the Vikings. Too much fan arrogance for a team that's never won it. It's like they believe they have in their own minds. In fact, claiming that the "NFC Championships" is the same thing.

Detroit deserves a run at it. They've been kicked around so long.

Out of all the Packer rivalries - the NFCN and really the entire NFL - the two teams I can say I hate are the Queens and the Niners.

Anyway this was about the SB. I would have loved a Lions/Bills matchup. Next year I'd love a Packers/Bills matchup, but I'm getting ahead of myself!

 

[rmontro]

Building better than 12 other teams is easier than building better than 31 teams.

Another factor in those days is there was no salary cap. So if you could build a better team back then, it had a longer shelf life. Theoretically, anyway.

 

[AmishMafia]

Another factor in those days is there was no salary cap. So if you could build a better team back then, it had a longer shelf life. Theoretically, anyway.

Great point!

 

[Heyjoe4]

AND we beat the Chiefs too, earlier in the season. Anyway, we're up and comers. Now we just need to make the right offseason moves.

Beat the Lions, Chiefs, Cowboys and dammit shoulda beat the Niners.

This is the first draft in my memory where there aren't multiple "must have" needs, except for S. After S, they need an OT, RB, C, CB, and OLB/Edge. Outside of S, they may have the luxury of taking the BPA out of these positions.

IMO, after S the biggest need is RB. I think if they cut Bakh they can also chase a real player in FA.

 

[Voyageur]

Another factor in those days is there was no salary cap. So if you could build a better team back then, it had a longer shelf life. Theoretically, anyway.

To a degree, this is true, but we have to remember that the NFL draft has been around since 1936. When a guy was drafted, unless the team wanted to trade him or cut him, they owned him during all his playing days. A player could hold out for more money, or to be traded, but that was considered suicide for them in the game. Owners didn't want their ownership challenged, and they pretty much decided that if a team didn't willingly send the guy out, they weren't too interested. Those that crossed that line found themselves being isolated from the rest.

The theory that it was easier to stock fewer teams than 32 now doesn't really work either. When you go back to those old days, there were fewer colleges with top level programs that could produce players, the college seasons were shorter, and the training methods weren't even close to being like they are today. There were fewer teams, that's true, but the talent pool was even smaller by far. Making it more difficult, the scouting of potential players to draft was harder than heck, because they did not have the modern conveniences of today's game.

Since travel was expensive and difficult, to observe players, scouting groups like Blesto came into existence. They did the research, and evaluated players on a nationwide basis. Teams themselves, scouted locally. That's why you'd see guys from schools within the Big 10 as it existed, ending up in huge numbers on NFL teams like the Packers, Bears, and Lions, at least in training camp. The Vikings weren't even a thought at that time.

In 1952, the Packers had 30 picks. In the top ten of them were 5 guys that stuck with the team, and made solid contributions. Beyond that, not to much. It was that strike out rate that pushed teams to pool resources for evaluating of potential talent out there. Ergo... Blesto, etc. There were 33 men on an NFL roster back in those days. Teams were always looking for guys who could play both ways. They were a premium. Quite often, position players, like Lou Groza, who was the Browns offensive left tackle, was also their place kicker. Paul Hornung was the kicker and RB for the Packers, and one of the smoothest of them all was Chuck Bednarek, who played MLB, and center, with the Eagles. He was the last player to play positions on a regular basis, on both sides of the ball. I remember, back in his top playing days, there were those that said he should have been all-pro on both sides of the ball.


If you're a Packer fan, always remember that it was Chuck who stopped Jim Taylor from scoring what would have won the NFL Championship for Lombardi, the first time he guided them to that game. He was an amazing player.

I don't think it's realistic to compare eras to be honest. There are too many things to consider, and if you haven't seen it from all of them, you'd never understand the evolution of how everything has come about. Judge each era on it's own, and you'll be further ahead.

Now, whether or not you want to heed this advice, it's up to you. I'm offering it as someone who has been an avid follower of the game at all levels since the latter part of the 40s, and I've watched the changes, and even been part of it myself, over those years. The level of popularity in football in this day and age is amazing. It wasn't anywhere near as close in percentages of population back in the old days. Take it from someone who's been there.

 

[rmontro]

I'm offering it as someone who has been an avid follower of the game at all levels since the latter part of the 40s, and I've watched the changes, and even been part of it myself, over those years.

The '40s! Wow, and I feel old because I remember the '60s. I was just a kid though.

 

[Voyageur]

The '40s! Wow, and I feel old because I remember the '60s. I was just a kid though.

It's been an amazing ride.

 

[Heyjoe4]

To a degree, this is true, but we have to remember that the NFL draft has been around since 1936. When a guy was drafted, unless the team wanted to trade him or cut him, they owned him during all his playing days. A player could hold out for more money, or to be traded, but that was considered suicide for them in the game. Owners didn't want their ownership challenged, and they pretty much decided that if a team didn't willingly send the guy out, they weren't too interested. Those that crossed that line found themselves being isolated from the rest.

The theory that it was easier to stock fewer teams than 32 now doesn't really work either. When you go back to those old days, there were fewer colleges with top level programs that could produce players, the college seasons were shorter, and the training methods weren't even close to being like they are today. There were fewer teams, that's true, but the talent pool was even smaller by far. Making it more difficult, the scouting of potential players to draft was harder than heck, because they did not have the modern conveniences of today's game.

Since travel was expensive and difficult, to observe players, scouting groups like Blesto came into existence. They did the research, and evaluated players on a nationwide basis. Teams themselves, scouted locally. That's why you'd see guys from schools within the Big 10 as it existed, ending up in huge numbers on NFL teams like the Packers, Bears, and Lions, at least in training camp. The Vikings weren't even a thought at that time.

In 1952, the Packers had 30 picks. In the top ten of them were 5 guys that stuck with the team, and made solid contributions. Beyond that, not to much. It was that strike out rate that pushed teams to pool resources for evaluating of potential talent out there. Ergo... Blesto, etc. There were 33 men on an NFL roster back in those days. Teams were always looking for guys who could play both ways. They were a premium. Quite often, position players, like Lou Groza, who was the Browns offensive left tackle, was also their place kicker. Paul Hornung was the kicker and RB for the Packers, and one of the smoothest of them all was Chuck Bednarek, who played MLB, and center, with the Eagles. He was the last player to play positions on a regular basis, on both sides of the ball. I remember, back in his top playing days, there were those that said he should have been all-pro on both sides of the ball.


If you're a Packer fan, always remember that it was Chuck who stopped Jim Taylor from scoring what would have won the NFL Championship for Lombardi, the first time he guided them to that game. He was an amazing player.

I don't think it's realistic to compare eras to be honest. There are too many things to consider, and if you haven't seen it from all of them, you'd never understand the evolution of how everything has come about. Judge each era on it's own, and you'll be further ahead.

Now, whether or not you want to heed this advice, it's up to you. I'm offering it as someone who has been an avid follower of the game at all levels since the latter part of the 40s, and I've watched the changes, and even been part of it myself, over those years. The level of popularity in football in this day and age is amazing. It wasn't anywhere near as close in percentages of population back in the old days. Take it from someone who's been there.

Where did Bednarek tackle Taylor? Wasn't it like the 4 yard line? Lombardi swore they'd never come up short again. He was right.

 

[Thirteen Below]

What was it about the '60s that spawned so many dynasties? And big dynasties, not just small ones. Packers, Celtics, UCLA. Even Jack Nicklaus was tearing it up.

As far as team sports are concerned, the absence of free agency probably played a big role. For the most part, you stayed with the the teamthat draftred you until they finally decided they didn't need you anymore, then you went to whereever they traded you to. The owners had complete control of the game.

The lack of a salary cap was a big factor, too.

But also, agents were not very common in those days - players negotiated their own contracts, and they had very little leverage. Anyone remember that legendary story about Jim Ringo going into Lombardi's office with an agent to negotiate a new contract, and Lombardi said "I don't negotiate with agents. Wait here"? Supposedly he came back 5 minutes later and said, "I just traded you to the Eagles; you can negotiate with them.

It's a great story, but turns out not to be quite true. But one of the reasons it got around so much was that Lombardi himself apparently encouraged people to beleive it in order to discourage other players from using agents.

 

[Voyageur]

Where did Bednarek tackle Taylor? Wasn't it like the 4 yard line? Lombardi swore they'd never come up short again. He was right.

I don't remember what yard line it was on, but I remember the play well, watching it on TV. I think it was on about the 9 yard line? Taylor said, later in life, that he knew he wouldn't be able to score on the play. But he gave it a shot, breaking tackles, until he got to Bednarik, who took him down. Then he lay on top of him to insure the clock would run out.

Years later, Bednarik said that was the hardest he ever hit anyone, and when he wrapped his arms around him, he just hoped that Taylor wouldn't drag him across the goal line from that far out. He said Taylor was a charging bull, and he'd wear you down by hitting you harder than you could hit him. They had a mutual respect for each other. Of course, Taylor always referred to him as the SOB who stopped them from winning another NFL Championship.

After the gun sounded, and they were walking away, Bednarik threw his arm around Taylor, and told him how much he respected him. It was a sobering moment for both men, and Bart Starr, who walked with the two of them, off the field. The respect between them would always be there.

 

[rmontro]

Where did Bednarek tackle Taylor? Wasn't it like the 4 yard line? Lombardi swore they'd never come up short again. He was right.

Got to admire a guy who follows through on his word. Maybe if they had won it that year, they might not have won some of the later ones, who knows? If that was a motivating moment.

 

[milani]

This article tells a little bit about why the Montreal hockey team was comprised of French-Canadian players. That's about all I can say about that, being of French-Canadian descent. The attached article tells some of the story, not all of it.

Is There a Deep Split between French and English Canada? | AHA

www.historians.org

Very good article and very enlightening. It shows how isolationism can split even one country. Every country can have its divisions among nationality, religion, and race. It appears that in Canada geography played a large part of this as well as ancestry.

 

[Heyjoe4]

As far as team sports are concerned, the absence of free agency probably played a big role. For the most part, you stayed with the the teamthat draftred you until they finally decided they didn't need you anymore, then you went to whereever they traded you to. The owners had complete control of the game.

The lack of a salary cap was a big factor, too.

But also, agents were not very common in those days - players negotiated their own contracts, and they had very little leverage. Anyone remember that legendary story about Jim Ringo going into Lombardi's office with an agent to negotiate a new contract, and Lombardi said "I don't negotiate with agents. Wait here"? Supposedly he came back 5 minutes later and said, "I just traded you to the Eagles; you can negotiate with them.

It's a great story, but turns out not to be quite true. But one of the reasons it got around so much was that Lombardi himself apparently encouraged people to beleive it in order to discourage other players from using agents.

I recall that story and yeah, Ringo wasn't traded, or at least Idon't think he was. My guess is that if Lombardi had the time he would have done it, or maybe done it with another player. The guy just didn't **** around.

But yeah one big reason it's hard to form a dynasty in the NFL now is the cap - I think that was Pete Rozelle's idea to create parity. For the most part, it's worked. Makes the Patriots 6 SBs and now the Chiefs' budding dynasty all the more amazing.

One area where parity can't be created is the front office. So gotta give Brady/BB and Reid/Mahomes/Chiefs' GM credit.

 

[milani]

I recall that story and yeah, Ringo wasn't traded, or at least Idon't think he was. My guess is that if Lombardi had the time he would have done it, or maybe done it with another player. The guy just didn't **** around.

But yeah one big reason it's hard to form a dynasty in the NFL now is the cap - I think that was Pete Rozelle's idea to create parity. For the most part, it's worked. Makes the Patriots 6 SBs and now the Chiefs' budding dynasty all the more amazing.

One area where parity can't be created is the front office. So gotta give Brady/BB and Reid/Mahomes/Chiefs' GM credit.

Ringo actually was traded in spring of 1964 to Philly along with Earl Gros for Lee Roy Caffey and a first round pick. Lombardi knew that other than Nitschke his LBs were aging. He knew Hornung was returning in 1964 to play beside Taylor so he could spare Gros who was a top draft pick. With Dave Robinson ready to step in the Packers developed the best trio of LBs in the league and it was obvious during the 3 consecutive championships. But losing Jim Ringo was difficult. Maybe the best center in Packer history.

 

[Heyjoe4]

Ringo actually was traded in spring of 1964 to Philly along with Earl Gros for Lee Roy Caffey and a first round pick. Lombardi knew that other than Nitschke his LBs were aging. He knew Hornung was returning in 1964 to play beside Taylor so he could spare Gros who was a top draft pick. With Dave Robinson ready to step in the Packers developed the best trio of LBs in the league and it was obvious during the 3 consecutive championships. But losing Jim Ringo was difficult. Maybe the best center in Packer history.

Interesting history, thanks. It seemed like the guys on the LOS didn't receive as much attention as they do today. I might be wrong about that. Just hearing some of those names helps me remember just how great those teams were.

 

[Voyageur]

Interesting history, thanks. It seemed like the guys on the LOS didn't receive as much attention as they do today. I might be wrong about that. Just hearing some of those names helps me remember just how great those teams were.

The story I heard, about Ringo, was that Lombardi had informed his team that he would not negotiate with agents, just the players. When it came time for Ringo's contract to be negotiated, his agent showed up in Lombardi's office and introduced himself. Lombardi politely told him to wait with his receptionist, and he'd be right back. Legend says he went into his office and called the Eagles, and made the trade. Then he went back out and told the agent that he'd have to negotiate that contract with the Eagles because he'd just been traded.

True or not, I can't guarantee either way.

 

[Thirteen Below]

Ringo actually was traded in spring of 1964 to Philly along with Earl Gros for Lee Roy Caffey and a first round pick. Lombardi knew that other than Nitschke his LBs were aging. He knew Hornung was returning in 1964 to play beside Taylor so he could spare Gros who was a top draft pick. With Dave Robinson ready to step in the Packers developed the best trio of LBs in the league and it was obvious during the 3 consecutive championships.

And the draft pick became Donny Anderson, who of course is in the Packer hall of fame today along with Caffey. Ringo went on to play 4 or 5 more years with the Eagles, and played in 3 more Pro Bowls. It was a nice finish to a stellar career.

But losing Jim Ringo was difficult. Maybe the best center in Packer history.

He was a legend, and especially when you consider that when he showed up for his first training camp, he stood 6'2" and weighed only 210 pounds! A center who was smaller than their halfback, Hornung. Can you imagine the strength and toughness of that man? He was listed at 232 throughout his career, but I've read that he never weighed more than 220 whie he was in Green Bay. Dave "Hawg" Hanner (255 lb defensive tackle) took him under his wing, and taught him how to block men his size - every trick in the book. He worked constantly with Ringo, told him "anytime you want to try a move, come and hit me, and we'll work on it.

Yeah, he was a loss, but the Packers didn't miss a beat. Ken Bowman stepped in to the position and played another 10 years. That team was just stocked and stacked.

 

[Thirteen Below]

I recall that story and yeah, Ringo wasn't traded, or at least Idon't think he was. My guess is that if Lombardi had the time he would have done it, or maybe done it with another player. The guy just didn't **** around.

It wasn't as acrimonious as the story is often told; in fact, it was a relatively amicable move that both parties were OK with.

Ringo liked Lombardi and enjoyed playing for him, but he was coming to the end of his career and feeling homesick for New Jersey. The year before, he'd written his own contract renewal, asking for $11,000. According to Pat Peppler, Green Bay director of player personnel, Lombardi added another $1,000 to keep Ringo happy. This year, he wanted $15,000, and he knew he wouldn't get it. Lombardi had too many other good players to keep happy, and paying Ringo 15K would have destroyed the team's salary structure. He told Peppler, "if you won't go the 15, trade me", figuring that he'd probably wind up with an East Coast team. Peppler said he'd pass it up to "the old man".

According to Peppler, Lombardi got on the phone to Philly, and called Ringo personally an hour later to tell him "Jim, you can negotiate with Philadephia now. I just traded you."

It was a classy, respectful move by Lombardi. He loved Ringo and was very loyal to him, but he knew he was becoming more and more unhappy playing in Green Bay, and went out of his way to get him into a city only an hour and a half away from his hometown. Lombardi had apparently been working out the trade for several weeks, maybe even months according to Peppler, and when the chips were down and he finally had to make the call, he pulled the trigger.

It's possible there never was an agent to begin with. Peppler's version always included an agent, but Ringo changed his story a little in later years and said that he never used an agent; he always made his own deals. But neither man ever made any effort to completely refute the legend - Ringo didn't mind, Lombardi liked what it did for his reputation, and both men had the sense to recognize it was a great story. When Vince was asked about it over the years, he never either confirmed it or denied it; just sorta winked and made a wise crack. The closest he came was in the late 60s, when he scoffed and said, "I never would have made a deal like that so suddenly. That'd be a hell of a way to manage a team". Which, knowing Vince, sounds logical.

However it went down, it worked out well for everyone. Ringo missed out on the true glory years, but he still won 2 championships under Lombardi, he got to finish his career playing close to home, and he made some pretty damned good money his last few years - quarterback money, runnning back money. The owner of the Eagles was a real estate developer who always made sure his players had construction jobs in the offseason, and he took especially good care of Ringo. Lombardi replaced an aging, undersized center a year or two earlier than he would have liked, but got excellent value in return - and already had the man's replacement standing by and ready for the "3peat" run that began in 65. There were no hard feelings; the men remained good friends for life, and respected each other greatly.

Everybody won.

 

[milani]

Interesting history, thanks. It seemed like the guys on the LOS didn't receive as much attention as they do today. I might be wrong about that. Just hearing some of those names helps me remember just how great those teams were.

You are correct. Particularly the Offensive line. The Packer line in Lombardi's first 6 seasons was extremely dominant especially in the run game. They were quick, precise, explosive, and so skilled in the art of blocking. And that was before they started allowing blockers to open their hands on contact. Defenses had to load the box. Watching them was a thing of beauty. By the 4th quarter opponents were worn down.

 

[milani]

And the draft pick became Donny Anderson, who of course is in the Packer hall of fame today along with Caffey. Ringo went on to play 4 or 5 more years with the Eagles, and played in 3 more Pro Bowls. It was a nice finish to a stellar career.



He was a legend, and especially when you consider that when he showed up for his first training camp, he stood 6'2" and weighed only 210 pounds! A center who was smaller than their halfback, Hornung. Can you imagine the strength and toughness of that man? He was listed at 232 throughout his career, but I've read that he never weighed more than 220 whie he was in Green Bay. Dave "Hawg" Hanner (255 lb defensive tackle) took him under his wing, and taught him how to block men his size - every trick in the book. He worked constantly with Ringo, told him "anytime you want to try a move, come and hit me, and we'll work on it.

Yeah, he was a loss, but the Packers didn't miss a beat. Ken Bowman stepped in to the position and played another 10 years. That team was just stocked and stacked.

I wonder if Ringo ever wrestled in high school. He was very quick off the ball. DLs were late because he hit them so fast. And he took on middle linebackers consistently. What was so sad was that he developed dementia earlier than most. Jerry Kramer related a visit he had with Ringo later on in one of his books. It brought tears to your eyes.

 

[Heyjoe4]

The story I heard, about Ringo, was that Lombardi had informed his team that he would not negotiate with agents, just the players. When it came time for Ringo's contract to be negotiated, his agent showed up in Lombardi's office and introduced himself. Lombardi politely told him to wait with his receptionist, and he'd be right back. Legend says he went into his office and called the Eagles, and made the trade. Then he went back out and told the agent that he'd have to negotiate that contract with the Eagles because he'd just been traded.

True or not, I can't guarantee either way.

It sure seems plausible. First of all, it's totally something Lombardi would do. And back then, without agents and salary caps, it would be a simple transaction between GMs.

It wasn't as acrimonious as the story is often told; in fact, it was a relatively amicable move that both parties were OK with.

Ringo liked Lombardi and enjoyed playing for him, but he was coming to the end of his career and feeling homesick for New Jersey. The year before, he'd written his own contract renewal, asking for $11,000. According to Pat Peppler, Green Bay director of player personnel, Lombardi added another $1,000 to keep Ringo happy. This year, he wanted $15,000, and he knew he wouldn't get it. Lombardi had too many other good players to keep happy, and paying Ringo 15K would have destroyed the team's salary structure. He told Peppler, "if you won't go the 15, trade me", figuring that he'd probably wind up with an East Coast team. Peppler said he'd pass it up to "the old man".

According to Peppler, Lombardi got on the phone to Philly, and called Ringo personally an hour later to tell him "Jim, you can negotiate with Philadephia now. I just traded you."

It was a classy, respectful move by Lombardi. He loved Ringo and was very loyal to him, but he knew he was becoming more and more unhappy playing in Green Bay, and went out of his way to get him into a city only an hour and a half away from his hometown. Lombardi had apparently been working out the trade for several weeks, maybe even months according to Peppler, and when the chips were down and he finally had to make the call, he pulled the trigger.

It's possible there never was an agent to begin with. Peppler's version always included an agent, but Ringo changed his story a little in later years and said that he never used an agent; he always made his own deals. But neither man ever made any effort to completely refute the legend - Ringo didn't mind, Lombardi liked what it did for his reputation, and both men had the sense to recognize it was a great story. When Vince was asked about it over the years, he never either confirmed it or denied it; just sorta winked and made a wise crack. The closest he came was in the late 60s, when he scoffed and said, "I never would have made a deal like that so suddenly. That'd be a hell of a way to manage a team". Which, knowing Vince, sounds logical.

However it went down, it worked out well for everyone. Ringo missed out on the true glory years, but he still won 2 championships under Lombardi, he got to finish his career playing close to home, and he made some pretty damned good money his last few years - quarterback money, runnning back money. The owner of the Eagles was a real estate developer who always made sure his players had construction jobs in the offseason, and he took especially good care of Ringo. Lombardi replaced an aging, undersized center a year or two earlier than he would have liked, but got excellent value in return - and already had the man's replacement standing by and ready for the "3peat" run that began in 65. There were no hard feelings; the men remained good friends for life, and respected each other greatly.

Everybody won.

Great bit of history 13, thanks!

 

[Heyjoe4]

You are correct. Particularly the Offensive line. The Packer line in Lombardi's first 6 seasons was extremely dominant especially in the run game. They were quick, precise, explosive, and so skilled in the art of blocking. And that was before they started allowing blockers to open their hands on contact. Defenses had to load the box. Watching them was a thing of beauty. By the 4th quarter opponents were worn down.

And I remember the sweeps they ran and just how incredibly fast those linemen pulled. The opponent DLinemen were mostly rushing after air as the real action had moved left or right of center, in the blink an eye.

It surprises me that with the athleticism of today's OLinemen we don't see more sweeps. Linemen will pull and stunt to open gaps, but the true sweep seems rare.