Was this the correct call ?

[HardRightEdge]

So it was a lot tougher and more smash mouth football back then?

And they wanted more chances at throws and catches to make it more exciting and to increase scores and ratings?

I was thinking of the concussions thing.

Do we know if players at that era suffered the results of them as they do now?

I only hear of modern players getting the brain damage and I have yet to hear of any players back then going through the same thing.

Oh, I'm sure concussions were as bad if not worse than today.

Until very recently, the long term affects of concussions were not recognized in the medical community. Even as evidence emerged, the NFL was a concussion denier, not unlike big tobacco vis a vis cancer or the current crop of climate deniers...they had evidence but suppressed it.

It really wasn't until Dave Duerson's suicide in 2011 that the issue gained any traction and CTE was beginning to be recognized as a real risk.

Frankly, back in the 60's, if an ex-player was losing his faculties he was just another case of early senility, like that crazy uncle. Families were not especially willing to publicize it. There was union to count up the cases.

You could think of it like the autism spectrum. Is there some recent epidemic, as the vacine deniers would have you believe contrary to all science, or was it always around but the victims of that condition were just counted among the town crazies and "retards" or quietly packed away in the insane asylums which are nearly non-existent anymore in comparison. What we might call high functioning autistics were just idiosyncratic.

 

[HardRightEdge]

I think many did, however As athletes have gotten much bigger and faster, the relative danger of severe brain trauma has likely increased as well.

You probably didn't see guys like Butkus or Fred "The Hammer" Williamson play football. Today, these guys would be lucky to get through a game without being ejected. Helmet-to-helmet contact was routine, as were forearm shivers to the heads or picking up a ball carrier and throwing him down on his head.

According to some research, CTE is believed to be caused as much, if not more, by a series of small sub-concussion impacts than a few big ones, making the size/speed issue somewhat moot.

 

[HardRightEdge]

So it was a lot tougher and more smash mouth football back then?

And they wanted more chances at throws and catches to make it more exciting and to increase scores and ratings?

I was thinking of the concussions thing.

Do we know if players at that era suffered the results of them as they do now?
I only hear of modern players getting the brain damage and I have yet to hear of any players back then going through the same thing.

Of course it was more smash mouth. The AFL was more of a passing league, but when it got absorbed into the NFL nearly all of the pass-first offenses disappeared.

How about all those guys, particularly LBs, who would wear those horse collars? Some might have had a pinched nerve or other injury; most were trying to prevent whiplash from tackling with their heads.

As noted before, concussion awareness had little traction until the last 5 years.

The preponderance of rule changes starting in the late 80's jacked up passing and scoring. It was planned that way and it accomplished its goals.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

As noted before, concussion awareness had little traction until the last 5 years.

"He just got his bell rung, give him some smelling salts and get him back in there!"

 

[HardRightEdge]

"He just got his bell rung, give him some smelling salts and get him back in there!"

"I guess we won. I don't remember anything after the first quarter."

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

You probably didn't see guys like Butkus or Fred "The Hammer" Williamson play football. Today, these guys would be lucky to get through a game without being ejected. Helmet-to-helmet contact was routine, as were forearm shivers to the heads or picking up a ball carrier and throwing him down on his head.

This reminds me of the movie The Longest Yard . "I think he broke his "freakin" neck"

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[swhitset]

You probably didn't see guys like Butkus or Fred "The Hammer" Williamson play football. Today, these guys would be lucky to get through a game without being ejected. Helmet-to-helmet contact was routine, as were forearm shivers to the heads or picking up a ball carrier and throwing him down on his head.

According to some research, CTE is believed to be caused as much, if not more, by a series of small sub-concussion impacts than a few big ones, making the size/speed issue somewhat moot.

Lol none of this is news to me, in fact it's why my first sentence was an acknowledgement that concussions were likely just as prevalent in the past. My only departure from your position is that despite your declaration that size and speed of the current players is moot, I will just say... I think that is a bit of an overstatement. Keep in mind that many defensive backs and even receivers are still well under 200 pounds, however a 300 pound lineman is not even out of the ordinary. These same linemen are capable of 5 second 40s. This was not the case even 25 years ago. My point being... that not all of the players on the field are bigger but the difference between the biggest and the smallest is much greater.

 

[Forget Favre]

This reminds me of the movie The Longest Yard . "I think he broke his "freakin" neck"

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I have three comments or questions on TLY.

First, Ray Nitchske. How awesome is it to see him in that movie?
What a great sport to take a ball to the ******!

Second. Forget the remake. Adam ******* as a QB?
He does not have the QB look. More like a Waterboy.
Just WTF were they thinking to cast him as a QB?
He'd be crying to his mama if he even breaks a nail.
Sorry, but I just hate the remake and love the original a lot.

Third. Breaking his neck. Does that mean the player is either dead, seriously injured or crippled after that?
I realize it may not matter and we just go with the humor of the situation but I wonder what would really happen in that situation or what we are supposed to believe happened to him.

 

[Forget Favre]

Oh, I'm sure concussions were as bad if not worse than today.

Until very recently, the long term affects of concussions were not recognized in the medical community. Even as evidence emerged, the NFL was a concussion denier, not unlike big tobacco vis a vis cancer or the current crop of climate deniers...they had evidence but suppressed it.

It really wasn't until Dave Duerson's suicide in 2011 that the issue gained any traction and CTE was beginning to be recognized as a real risk.

Frankly, back in the 60's, if an ex-player was losing his faculties he was just another case of early senility, like that crazy uncle. Families were not especially willing to publicize it. There was union to count up the cases.

You could think of it like the autism spectrum. Is there some recent epidemic, as the vacine deniers would have you believe contrary to all science, or was it always around but the victims of that condition were just counted among the town crazies and "retards" or quietly packed away in the insane asylums which are nearly non-existent anymore in comparison. What we might call high functioning autistics were just idiosyncratic.

Another thing that doesn't get talked about very often are the retired players who may not suffer long term brain damage but those who have to live with constant pain 24/7 as a result of them putting their bodies on the line every Sunday.
This gets way too overlooked, probably to keep fans interested and to keep future players interested, and for me it makes watching the intense impact of football a guilty pleasure.

 

[Sky King]

It's going to be interesting to observe how the NFL's dirty little (non) secret of rampant steroid use by its players will eventually affect the long-term health of those former players. Also, whether steroids will have a deleterious long-term affect on brain injuries, connective tissue, reproductive systems, etc., and the legal system.

They didn't get this big and fast during the last couple of decades due to lettuce, quinoa, and Universal machines.

 

[Robert Mason]

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[Pokerbrat2000]

I have three comments or questions on TLY.

First, Ray Nitchske. How awesome is it to see him in that movie?
What a great sport to take a ball to the ******!

Second. Forget the remake. Adam ******* as a QB?
He does not have the QB look. More like a Waterboy.
Just WTF were they thinking to cast him as a QB?
He'd be crying to his mama if he even breaks a nail.
Sorry, but I just hate the remake and love the original a lot.

Third. Breaking his neck. Does that mean the player is either dead, seriously injured or crippled after that?
I realize it may not matter and we just go with the humor of the situation but I wonder what would really happen in that situation or what we are supposed to believe happened to him.

Will I think "Jaws" was a prisoner, so he may have been suspended for 4 games or.......lost his parole for life.

 

[Half Empty]

Counterpoint: Which also means the talent pool was not as diluted.

All the teams back then were playing against fewer opponents, all the teams were looking at a less diluted talent pool. The changes that really hurt were free agency and the salary cap. Even in the Gory Years, I could look at certain positions on the team and figure "well, we're set there, now if we can just get a decent (fill in the blank)". Trying to assemble, much less retain, a decent group of players is what's so much harder. Certainly, what's also much tougher, nearly impossible, is winning (a championship) consistently, like the old Packers, Cowboys, Steelers, 49ers.

 

[Forget Favre]

All the teams back then were playing against fewer opponents, all the teams were looking at a less diluted talent pool. The changes that really hurt were free agency and the salary cap. Even in the Gory Years, I could look at certain positions on the team and figure "well, we're set there, now if we can just get a decent (fill in the blank)". Trying to assemble, much less retain, a decent group of players is what's so much harder. Certainly, what's also much tougher, nearly impossible, is winning (a championship) consistently, like the old Packers, Cowboys, Steelers, 49ers.

The Patriots somehow are doing it and have found a way and I really do think it's because of cheating.
They have put that on themselves to the point where one could wonder if they really do cheat at each game they win and I think they do.
Bilicheat is overrated and he is not the genius coach a lot think he is.

 

[PackerDNA]

While it was way tougher for the players to play the game because of different rules winning a championship was easier for a team as they had to compete against fewer opponents.

Then you actually had to go head to head- in many cases twice per season- against great competition.
Today, you only play half the teams in the league- most of them crap- once every four years. Where is the 'more', much less greater, competition?

 

[PackerDNA]

The Patriots somehow are doing it and have found a way and I really do think it's because of cheating.
They have put that on themselves to the point where one could wonder if they really do cheat at each game they win and I think they do.
Bilicheat is overrated and he is not the genius coach a lot think he is.

I have yet to hear from anyone anywhere exactly how this 'cheating' is responsible for so much as one win, much less 4 titles and 16 consecutive seasons of excellence.

 

[Forget Favre]

I have yet to hear from anyone anywhere exactly how this 'cheating' is responsible for so much as one win, much less 4 titles and 16 consecutive seasons of excellence.

It's just what I cannot help but suspect based on the videotaping and the deflategate.

 

[PackerDNA]

It's just what I cannot help but suspect based on the videotaping and the deflategate.

Again, specifically how did any of this alleged, so called cheating rise to the level of deciding even one game, much less 16 years worth of them?
And how would it be even remotely possible for such a thing to not only happen, but happen over 200 times over a period of 16 consecutive seasons?

 

[HardRightEdge]

Lol none of this is news to me, in fact it's why my first sentence was an acknowledgement that concussions were likely just as prevalent in the past. My only departure from your position is that despite your declaration that size and speed of the current players is moot, I will just say... I think that is a bit of an overstatement. Keep in mind that many defensive backs and even receivers are still well under 200 pounds, however a 300 pound lineman is not even out of the ordinary. These same linemen are capable of 5 second 40s. This was not the case even 25 years ago. My point being... that not all of the players on the field are bigger but the difference between the biggest and the smallest is much greater.

My point was that the size/speed/strength factor in the current game is offset by the current rules. Guys still get whacked in the head, perhaps with more force, but less frequently.

And if it does turn out that CTE risk is confirmed as equal to or higher with repeated sub-concussive impacts vs. a series of concussions, then I would conclude that the players of yore were more at risk. Why wouldn't we have heard about them? Because without study and acknowledgement of the risks they would have suffered in the shadows.

I remember reading some years ago that the average life expectancy of ex-NFL players was somewhere in the high-50's years of age, well below the general male population. The reason conjectured, without a study of causes, was that upon retirement their muscle turned to fat. That would be a convenient explanation that exempts the inherent violence in the game.

 

[HardRightEdge]

Another thing that doesn't get talked about very often are the retired players who may not suffer long term brain damage but those who have to live with constant pain 24/7 as a result of them putting their bodies on the line every Sunday.

This gets way too overlooked, probably to keep fans interested and to keep future players interested, and for me it makes watching the intense impact of football a guilty pleasure.

I was trying to keep the discussion confined to concussions in the past vs. now, only because the risks in the past were not recognized.

What you say has been well known in the past just as it is now. Limping through later life was an accepted occupational hazard. All the players have had to do since forever is see the old timers at 50 and 60 years of age amble on the field in pregame recognition ceremonies. You had guys like Namath and Ditka serve as poster boys of those risks. What wasn't know is what happened to the guys who not there because they were deceased or too mentally impaired to participate. It wasn't so long ago that talking about cancer or senility in the family carried a social stigma. You just didn't talk about those things and the challenges they presented. Of course those stigmas still exist, but to a lesser degree.

But your point is well taken. We're Romans watching a sanitized version of the Coliseum, albeit the competitors are playing for large bags of money and not just their lives.

Football was my favorite sport. For many years I thought if I dedicated myself with diet, weights and speed training I could have gone further. I don't regret that now, knowing I have perhaps decades of cogent thought behind me and in front of me that I may not have had otherwise. And today, as I write this, my love of the game is not what it once was because of concussion science and I don't know how long it will remain a guilty pleasure.

 

[Raptorman]

It would be interesting if someone could do a study on concussions before plastic helmets and artificial turf. But I think the time for that is probably way past.

 

[HardRightEdge]

It would be interesting if someone could do a study on concussions before plastic helmets and artificial turf. But I think the time for that is probably way past.

The modern helmet was designed to prevent skull fractures, not concussions. One presumes the implementation of the plastic helmet was to address the known risk of fracture vs. the unknown long term risks of concussions.

 

[Raptorman]

The modern helmet was designed to prevent skull fractures, not concussions. One presumes the implementation of the plastic helmet was to address the known risk of fracture vs. the unknown long term risks of concussions.

So that begs the questions, do skull fractures also indicate concussions? or put another way, Can you have a skull fracture without getting a concussion?

 

[Raptorman]

The thought process for me is that as they have built better gear, it seems they went from one problem to another, and maybe the newer problem is worse than the old one. Just a thought.

 

[HardRightEdge]

Can you have a skull fracture without getting a concussion?

Sure you can. But I'd guess it's more likely in football that if you suffered a fractured skull there'd be a concussion to go with it.

A concussion is caused by the brain rattling around in the skull and bouncing off it's walls, whether the skull is fractured or not. A concussion implies an impact that causes a sharp movement of the head from side-to-side or front-to-back to get the brain in motion within the cavity.

I could imagine an impact, such has somebody hitting you on the top of the head with a steel rod, that does not get the brain in much motion but cracks the skull, but that kind of impact does not occur much in football.

But given the choice between a fractured skull and a concussion, I'd take the concussion. A skull fracture can cause bone to penetrate brain tissue, something more acutely dangerous.

I think it's worth noting that Teddy Roosevelt nearly banned football in it's early days after 18 deaths during the 1905 season, and around 40 over a 5 year period. Progressive steps to bring safety to the game over the years have been an improvement, including leather helmets then plastic ones, even if the current ones are not exactly a perfected device.

Some of the newer helmets are touted as reducing concussions by something like 30%. Rodgers played with one these after his concussion; I'm not sure if he still does. Some players have tried them and found them uncomfortable. The risk in that case is partially on them, just as players were playing with lighter pads or ditching some pads (and cups!) altogether to gain speed until the league reversed that in recent years by mandating certain pads.

The idea that a clock turned back from the plastic helmet would improve safety doesn't sound compelling to me. In Roosevelt's time, football looked a lot like rugby. That does not seem to be a compelling way to go.