The path for Aaron Rodgers to become the GOAT

Raptorman

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Overall the Patriots have featured 13 defenses that finished within the top 10 in points allowed over Brady's 16 seasons as a starter. On the other side Rodgers has had that benefit only twice in his nine season as the Packers starting quarterback with one of these units not being able to provide enough stops to win a playoff game in which the offense put up 45 points.

In addition New England has never finished worse than 17th in that category since 2001 while the Packers have somehow managed to rank lower than that four times over the last nine seasons.
Yet for some reason the QB is always the one that get the glory or the backlash. When will people realize it's not just the QB? Rodgers, Carr, Luck, none of them will win a Super Bowl until/unless they have a half way decent defense. The only exception to the rule the last 20 years or so has been the Giants. But the one thing they had was that once in the playoffs their defense was able to hold the other teams to an average of 15 ppg during those two super bowl runs. So it's possible, just not likely. 2006 Colts did the same thing.
 
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rmontro

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One guy is 25-9. The other is 9-7. And the narrow minded, lazy natured pro-Brady crowd out there just wants to point at the record without considering all of the variables. :mad:

That's all I have to say. Makes me wanna puke.
Those are great stats, PackAttack, they really show what is going on. But my reaction is quite a bit different than yours. Rather than being angry that Brady is held in higher esteem than Rodgers, what ticks me off the inability of Green Bay to field better defenses over that period. What your stats say to me is that is what is keeping us from getting over the hump.

Look, you're right, it isn't fair, but the fact is the world at large looks at championships when they talk about the GOAT. Even though it's a team sport, people weigh those rings heavily.

At the end of the day, I really don't give a rats who is considered the best quarterback of all time. All I want is more Lombardis. The other things, like MVPs, and individual recognition, are just consolation prizes.
 

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That's why I came out from the get go and pronounced Aaron Rodgers easily the "GOAT". Everyone wants to hate on Rodgers it seems and it really doesn't matter what Aaron Rodgers does as he somehow doesn't get the full credit he deserves.

All these guys and networks can spew fraud and lies and people that don't know any better just follow along.

I think many of us and maybe some of the other Fans/Media around the NFL might agree that AR is quite possibly one of the best QB's as far as pure skills. However, his teams success, or lack of, will/could always be a negative against him as far as going down as the GOAT. Most Packer fans view that lack of success as a product of AR being on a team that lacks a quality defense each season, but some will never overlook that fact and only view Rodgers for his team accomplishments.
 
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Mondio

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Like I said, people will remember him how they want to remember him, in the meantime i'm going to enjoy what he does :) I don't want summer over, but I can't wait for football to start again.
 
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Yet for some reason the QB is always the one that get the glory or the backlash. When will people realize it's not just the QB? Rodgers, Carr, Luck, none of them will win a Super Bowl until/unless they have a half way decent defense. The only exception to the rule the last 20 years or so has been the Giants. But the one thing they had was that once in the playoffs their defense was able to hold the other teams to an average of 15 ppg during those two super bowl runs. So it's possible, just not likely. 2006 Colts did the same thing.

Well, five out of the last 11 Super Bowl champions featured a defense that ranked outside of the top 10 in the points allowed with three of them finishing 20th or worse.

Rather than being angry that Brady is held in higher esteem than Rodgers, what ticks me off the inability of Green Bay to field better defenses over that period. What your stats say to me is that is what is keeping us from getting over the hump.

Absolutely agreed, yet a lot of Packers fans don't hold Thompson accountable for not being able to assemble a more talented defense.
 

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Starr > Favre and Rodgers in Packer QB hierarchy, so far, although Rodgers may have an outside chance to meet or exceed Starr's accomplishments. As has been convincingly pointed out by PackAttack12, all Rodgers may have been lacking over the years has been a reliable defense pulling their own weight. Lombardi (both the coach and GM) and Phil Bengston gave that to the Packers, as did Jack Vianisi. As has been noted earlier, blame the recent failures on whomever you want.

It was a privilege to see Starr in action. What's more, he dominated at a time when it was legal to hit the QB, head-shots included, even fairly long after the throw had been made (when compared to the rules being enforced today). And the DBs could pretty much make contact with the WRs all the way down the field, not to mention that O-linemen protecting him could not legally hold back in those days. He called his own plays, too. The passing game was not so heavily favored by the rules in those days as it blatantly is today -- not like the Arena League Lite (NFL) throw-arounds commonplace to the game of today.

Despite the disadvantages of playing QB back then, Starr also earned five championship rings, same as Brady. To me, Starr's five championships were harder-earned and, thus, even more impressive. That puts him at the top of my all-time GOAT list. Starr, Lombardi & Company accomplished their totals in far less years total than it has taken Brady and Belechick to do the same thing. It doesn't diminish the accomplishments of the latter, just adds a little perspective to their records.

Otto Graham also deserves some serious props for his own impressive number of championship game appearances and his seven championships total, although some of those were earned playing in a league that arguably had much lesser overall talent to oppose him than what was found in the NFL even back then. But he won four in the NFL, too, so he deserves a prominent place in NFL lore -- behind only Starr by a whisker or two and arguably followed somewhat closely by a very small handful of others. Take your pick.

Some of you think that Rodgers has been slighted? Just take a look at ESPN's obituary for Otto Graham: http://www.espn.com/classic/obit/s/2003/1217/1688946.html
ESPN mentions all-time QB greats, including Namath of all people, but not even the slightest mention of Starr and his championships in this article naming the GOATs. Rather like a lot of Packer fans still overlook today.

For what it's worth, IMHO Bart Starr is the GOAT at QB for the Packers and arguably for the entire NFL, as well. That's my story and I'm sticking to it. Rodgers probably is destined to be #2, at worst, and can still make the ultimate climb if this team ever assembles a consistently good enough defense over the course of the next several seasons.
 
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To me, Starr's five championships were harder-earned and, thus, even more impressive.

You have to realize that the league featured a maximum of 16 teams at that time though, making it easier to win multiple championships.
 

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Starr > Favre and Rodgers in Packer QB hierarchy, so far, although Rodgers may have an outside chance to meet or exceed Starr's accomplishments. As has been convincingly pointed out by PackAttack12, all Rodgers may have been lacking over the years has been a reliable defense pulling their own weight. Lombardi (both the coach and GM) and Phil Bengston gave that to the Packers, as did Jack Vianisi. As has been noted earlier, blame the recent failures on whomever you want.

It was a privilege to see Starr in action. What's more, he dominated at a time when it was legal to hit the QB, head-shots included, even fairly long after the throw had been made (when compared to the rules being enforced today). And the DBs could pretty much make contact with the WRs all the way down the field, not to mention that O-linemen protecting him could not legally hold back in those days. He called his own plays, too. The passing game was not so heavily favored by the rules in those days as it blatantly is today -- not like the Arena League Lite (NFL) throw-arounds commonplace to the game of today.

Despite the disadvantages of playing QB back then, Starr also earned five championship rings, same as Brady. To me, Starr's five championships were harder-earned and, thus, even more impressive. That puts him at the top of my all-time GOAT list. Starr, Lombardi & Company accomplished their totals in far less years total than it has taken Brady and Belechick to do the same thing. It doesn't diminish the accomplishments of the latter, just adds a little perspective to their records.

Otto Graham also deserves some serious props for his own impressive number of championship game appearances and his seven championships total, although some of those were earned playing in a league that arguably had much lesser overall talent to oppose him than what was found in the NFL even back then. But he won four in the NFL, too, so he deserves a prominent place in NFL lore -- behind only Starr by a whisker or two and arguably followed somewhat closely by a very small handful of others. Take your pick.

Some of you think that Rodgers has been slighted? Just take a look at ESPN's obituary for Otto Graham: http://www.espn.com/classic/obit/s/2003/1217/1688946.html
ESPN mentions all-time QB greats, including Namath of all people, but not even the slightest mention of Starr and his championships in this article naming the GOATs. Rather like a lot of Packer fans still overlook today.

For what it's worth, IMHO Bart Starr is the GOAT at QB for the Packers and arguably for the entire NFL, as well. That's my story and I'm sticking to it. Rodgers probably is destined to be #2, at worst, and can still make the ultimate climb if this team ever assembles a consistently good enough defense over the course of the next several seasons.
Namath sucked. That's all there is to that. I have no idea why anyone would even include him in the discussion. For gods sake he doesn't even own a winning record. He's in the top 50 of exactly one category for QB's. Interceptions thrown. 13 years of playing he had 4 winning seasons.

Edit: The only reason Namath is a HOF is that he won a Super Bowl. I can think of about 14 other QB's that have better stats and records that are not in and never will be in the HOF. Even Brad Johnson has better stats.
 
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I feel like unless we win at least 1 SB by the 2019 season and then a second from then until #12 retires..Aaron's chances of being considered the best QB of all time is but rhetorical chatter. 3 is the ticket to forge an argument.
That being said, I do believe he is the best QB playing the game today and has equally as good a chance at a SB as many of the younger, but talented QB's. Since 2014, we have been a total of 7 games away from 3 Superbowl wins so it's not like we havn't had opportunities. #12 is largely responsible for keeping us in the tournament.. but it still takes a well-rounded team to win.
 

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Being the GOAT is just a thought process from people who are invested in it. For example. Let's take something like the GOAT in the WR category. If asked most people would immediately say Jerry Rice. And while not a right or wrong answer it depends on what do you consider for the inclusion into the category. Now for Rice there is not doubt he has the most yards, and most TD's. Now, if you wanted to take TD's per reception, Don Hutson at 1 TD per 4.9 receptions would be the GOAT. Rice isn't even close to that at 7.9. Only person recently close to Hutson is Moss at 6.3 Now, does the fact that Rice played on winning Super Bowl teams come into play? Hutson was on three championship teams. And that was back when the forward pass wasn't even a main part of the game. So, how do you really look at the GOAT in any category depends on the person.

For me in the WR it's Hutson. Hands down. Right now in QB, it would have to be Graham or Starr. Depending on if you wanted to include Graham from the other league. One could come up with way to do the difference between old NFL and new NFL. Since the league has changed dramatically over the years.

BTW, for the run of Montana and Young in San Fran, they had a top 10 defense in points for 15 of the 18 years.
 

rmontro

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Hutson is well known in Green Bay of course, but for most casual fans that's too long ago to remember. Most of these GOAT conversations are always skewed toward the latest and greatest thing. I think baseball is the only sport that really romanticizes its distant past.
 

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You have to realize that the league featured a maximum of 16 teams at that time though, making it easier to win multiple championships.
Quite true, but that also left a talent pool that was less diluted than it is today. Plus, those fellows were not wholesale steroid users and abusers. They were true athletes: as big, fast and strong as nature, nutrition and their own training regimens could make them -- devoid of modern-day (clandestine) pharmaceutical assistance.
 

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Namath sucked. That's all there is to that. I have no idea why anyone would even include him in the discussion. For gods sake he doesn't even own a winning record. He's in the top 50 of exactly one category for QB's. Interceptions thrown. 13 years of playing he had 4 winning seasons.

Edit: The only reason Namath is a HOF is that he won a Super Bowl. I can think of about 14 other QB's that have better stats and records that are not in and never will be in the HOF. Even Brad Johnson has better stats.
Could not agree more on Namath. But it does underscore how influential a SB victory can be for a QB (not named Starr) when a player is held in such high esteem by the New York-centric National media. Starr's and Namath's careers overlapped, so it can't be a generational thing.
 
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BTW, for the run of Montana and Young in San Fran, they had a top 10 defense in points for 15 of the 18 years.

Thanks for pointing that out, I didn't realize the Niners had a top 10 defense for that many years from 1981-98.
 

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Rings are not the measure of QB greatness. If that was the case then Dilfer=Rodgers, and we all know that's a load of horse ****. Wins, championships, playoff appearances. Those are all team achievements. Is there anyone who doubts that if Rodgers was on the Patriots that he would have at least as many rings as f-ing Brady? Anyone here think the Packers would have more rings if they had f-ing Brady? The greatness of a QB should be measured by things that the QB has direct control over. Careless interceptions, TD passes, completion %. Those are things over which a QB more or less has direct control which can be measured.

But most of what makes a QB great are intangible, unmeasurable qualities. The ability to visualize how a play is going to unfold before it even happens and using that ability to make uncanny plays look routine; the ability to throw the ball with pinpoint accuracy through windows that most QBs would not even be able to recognize and the fearlessness to make that throw; the ability to turn busted plays into big gains and touchdowns on such a regular basis that everyone on the team knows that the play is NEVER over until the whistle blows; the ability to do all of this and yet rarely throw an interception due to errant throws or poor decisions; these are just a few of the things that separate Rodgers from everyone else who ever played the game.

The speed in which he makes his reads both before and after the snap is unbelievable. His mind's ability to process everything he sees and hears on the field and instantly understand what is about to happen puts him a step ahead of everyone else on the field and places him on his own level. So regardless of how many rings or other team achievements he is fortunate to take part in, he is, indeed, the greatest QB to ever step on an NFL field. He is the only player I've ever seen aside from Barry Sanders who you can be assured that something special is going to happen that makes your jaw drop every... single... game.
 

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Individual stats only take a player that far when talking about the GOAT though. There's no doubt Rodgers has been the most efficient quarterback in NFL history by a wide margin but as long as he doesn't at least pass Roethlisberger or Eli Manning in championships he won't be included in the discussion, maybe even rightfully so.

Championships are team achievements, not individual achievements. Besides, who cares about the "discussion?" Millions of fans will never come to a consensus. Best to simply take rest in the knowledge.
 

BrokenArrow

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I agree that every team that has won a Super Bowl benefitted from some luck along the way but in my mind fans whining about it makes them look like sore losers.

I don't think commenting on a point of fact equates to whining.
 
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I never wanted to start a whole thread on this, because I just knew it wouldn't be a good idea :roflmao: :D

But I'll just leave this here...

Brady v.s. Rodgers in the postseason:

Completion % -
Rodgers - 63.5
Brady - 62.7

TD to INT ratio -
Rodgers - 3.6 to 1
Brady - 2.03 to 1

Passer Rating -
Rodgers - 99.4
Brady - 89.0

Yards/attempt -
Rodgers - 7.49
Brady - 6.86

Yards/game -
Rodgers - 278.63
Brady - 267.47

Playoff QBR by year since Rodgers became the starter.

2016 - Rodgers (84.2) Brady (78.4)
2015 - Rodgers (73.9) Brady (62.6)
2014 - Rodgers (67.8) Brady (82.3)
2013 - Rodgers (68.4) Brady (68.1)
2012 - Rodgers (79.6) Brady (69.8)
2011 - Rodgers (76.1) Brady (83.4)
2010 - Rodgers (84.4) Brady (16.9)
2009 - Rodgers (85.2) Brady (12.2)

6 out of 8 years Rodgers has had the higher QBR. Rodgers lowest QBR in a single playoff game is 55. Brady has five more worse than that in the same time frame.

Opponents ppg in playoff losses:
Packers - 36.3
Patriots - 26.4

# of 30+ point games given up by the defense:
Packers - 5 out of 16 total
Patriots - 3 out of 34 total

Record in games in which the QB throws an interception:
Rodgers - 2-6
Brady - 11-7

The partridge in a pair tree: Rodgers hasn't been given one single top 10 defense since winning the Super Bowl in the 2010 season, Brady has been given five just in his five Super Bowl winning seasons. No telling how many others.

So all and all, I would say that Rodgers has done far more than his part to win big playoff games, and if he were put in the same situation as Tom Brady, there's no telling what he might be able to accomplish. He's got better overall playoff numbers across the board no matter which metric you choose to look at, and he's been handed one top 10 defense in the past seven seasons.

BUT...

One guy is 25-9. The other is 9-7. And the narrow minded, lazy natured pro-Brady crowd out there just wants to point at the record without considering all of the variables. :mad:

That's all I have to say. Makes me wanna puke.
Good info I like it. Thank you.
I'm playing devils advocate here Packattack, but If we are comparing playoff games wouldn't it be logical to consider that the teams who advance farthest into a tournament play the most fierce competition?
Meaning we can't compare a year where NE wins a SB and GB loses a Divisional match as equal.
That would be like comparing the stats of the players who made the sweet sixteen with those players who won the entire tournament. Personally, I would expect some stats variance as each level of difficulty increases.
Don't get me wrong I appreciate what#12 has accomplished but we are like Kansas and the Patriots are like NC
 
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Pokerbrat2000

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Namath sucked. That's all there is to that. I have no idea why anyone would even include him in the discussion. For gods sake he doesn't even own a winning record. He's in the top 50 of exactly one category for QB's. Interceptions thrown. 13 years of playing he had 4 winning seasons.

Edit: The only reason Namath is a HOF is that he won a Super Bowl. I can think of about 14 other QB's that have better stats and records that are not in and never will be in the HOF. Even Brad Johnson has better stats.

I think you can add to that his off field persona as "Broadway Joe" as well. He was a "legend" with what he did off the field. Of course all of that turned into a major trainwreck the night he was drunk on the sidelines and wanted to kiss Suzy Kolber. :rolleyes:

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Mondio

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My response to Namath being in the HOF was he wore a fur coat, and tried to kiss Suzy Kolber :)
 

Pokerbrat2000

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My response to Namath being in the HOF was he wore a fur coat, and tried to kiss Suzy Kolber :)

I can't fault him much for wanting to kiss Suzy, but wearing ***** Hose? Can't forget that! Or unsee it either!

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You have to realize that the league featured a maximum of 16 teams at that time though, making it easier to win multiple championships.
The teams essentially owned the players from the moment they were drafted back in those days as well.
That said, Starr was Lombardi's greatest creation.
 

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The teams essentially owned the players from the moment they were drafted back in those days as well.
That said, Starr was Lombardi's greatest creation.
Starr's record over 3 years before Lombardi. 3-15-1. Not a QB most coaches today would keep.
 

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