The Official 2019 Packers Takes Thread

[HardRightEdge]

He's a DB by roster designation playing the position of a linebacker. Hence "dime linebacker"... "dime" because he's the 6th defensive back in the package and "linebacker" because he's being used in that role. This shouldn't be that hard.

6 DBs, 2 DL, 2 edge rush and a single ILB in what is often now a DB-like body, dropping to 8 or 10 yards covering the middle zone in a long yardage defense.

That's the classic defintion of a dime linebacker.

 

[GleefulGary]

The coaches giving Greene a look at dime linebacker definitely means the want to give him a look there but as long as he hasn't significantly bulked up this offseason I highly doubt he will receive playing time in that role anytime soon.

Let's get back to where this started.

Go check out Greene's biceps. Dude is jacked. I'm super jealous. You should be too. Anyways, he's bulked up.

And you're gonna be wroooooong again.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

And a S moving down to play as a LB doesn't make him a LB. It's a role, not a position.

On that play he is a linebacker. It doesn't matter that he is designated as a safety on the roster or doesn't line up there on the majority of his snaps.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Let's get back to where this started.

Go check out Greene's biceps. Dude is jacked. I'm super jealous. You should be too. Anyways, he's bulked up.

As I've mentioned repeatedly, if Greene has bulked up I'm absolutely fine with the Packers giving him a look at inside linebacker. At 197 pounds there's no way they should do that though.

 

[Dantés]

Levine is designated (the photo is from the Ravens official website) as a hybrid defensive back/linebacker. That means that there's no way to make a distinction on which defense is used other than to consider the alignment.

So perhaps in his case it's nickel if he lines up at linebacker and dime if he lines up at DB. Because he's an obscure player with a dual designation. But that's still the terminology deriving from the personnel. And that doesn't change the reality that dime is just a package with six defensive backs even if one is lined up as a linebacker.

 

[gopkrs]

Just my two cents. I think dime refers to a package and a hybrid is a type of player. Like a player has a size in between a "normal" pass rusher and a linebacker. Although he is a very good pass rusher and that is why you drafted him; he can play at the linebacker position. To call a player a linebacker or a DB depending on the offensive call of the last play would mean that you have to change the player's designation constantly. I think it is pretty much useless info. A player simply has responsibilities.

 

[Dantés]

On that play he is a linebacker. It doesn't matter that he is designated as a safety on the roster or doesn't line up there on the majority of his snaps.

Yes, he could be considered a linebacker for the purposes of that play. But that's not what we are talking about. We are talking about terminology for personnel packages. If a 6th defensive back is on the field, the defense is in dime. Even if one of those DB's lines up as a linebacker.

The reason this is confusing you and HRE is that you think the alignment changes the terminology of the personnel package. It doesn't. If a 4-3 team pulls the SAM linebacker off the field, replaces him with a DB to cover a TE in the slot, that TE motions in-line, and the DB ends up in the same spot where a SAM linebacker would line up, they're still in nickel. They didn't magically go from base to nickel and back to base. Because they have five defensive backs on the field or they don't. It really isn't complicated.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

So perhaps in his case it's nickel if he lines up at linebacker and dime if he lines up at DB. Because he's an obscure player with a dual designation. But that's still the terminology deriving from the personnel. And that doesn't change the reality that dime is just a package with six defensive backs even if one is lined up as a linebacker.

There are several other players playing like Levine in the league. The only thing obscure is that you insist on a roster designation being more important than the actual spot a player lines up in.

 

[Mondio]

Spread it around, feed it to your main man that's open. Either can work. Ignoring the rest while the best is covered and forcing it would be a problem. Throwing it to him more because he's open is not. Don't take the ball out of your main man's hands for the sake of giving it to someone else all the time.

 

[HardRightEdge]

Captain -

There's an irony here. I wanted to give you a "like" for your Levine post but the way it is appearing doesn't display those options or a reply button.

So, Baltimore cares enough to designate Levine as a multi-positional player on their roster sheet whereas the Packers called Whitehead a "S" not caring to be quite so detail-oriented. If history is any guide, we'll see Greene identified as a "S" even if he's taking snaps at ILB. Or Smash Amos for that matter.

 

[Mondio]

but where they line up on the field these days doesn't fit our traditional definitions or images of that position either. If they're put on the field to primarily defend the pass, regardless of where they line up, that's a DB to me. I don't care if they lined them up over the center.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Yes, he could be considered a linebacker for the purposes of that play. But that's not what we are talking about. We are talking about terminology for personnel packages. If a 6th defensive back is on the field, the defense is in dime. Even if one of those DB's lines up as a linebacker.

The defensive back is a linebacker on that play, therefore there aren't six DBs on the field, hence no dime defense either.

 

[Dantés]

The defensive back is a linebacker on that play, therefore there aren't six DBs on the field, hence no dime defense either.

Yeah, this is totally incorrect.

 

[Dantés]

Okay guys, so if your definitions are correct, what's a "dime linebacker?"

 

[HardRightEdge]

And a S moving down to play as a LB doesn't make him a LB. It's a role, not a position.

And none of it matters!

Whether it matters or not, there is a distinction. If you look at the video in post #44 above where Mark Barron tackles Aaron Jones for a safety, you'll see that 210 lb. defensive player playing LILB, jetting in to make the tackle before the reach block can get to him. This is what "hybrid ILB" run defense is supposd to look like even if the blocking assignments look confused on this play.

There's also clearly a RILB, regardless of who he is, what he looks like, or what his position designation is on the roster sheet. There's also an 8th. man in the box lined up in the gap between the LDE and LDT in this run sell-out defense against an 8 man O-Line/ single wideout. I can't see that 8th. guys number, I don't know his hight and weight, I don't know what he's called on the roster sheet. But that's a box safety.

 

[HardRightEdge]

I'm guessing that whatever the coaches consider to be his base personnel position would dictate whether they would refer to it as nickel or dime. In other words-- the personnel would dictate the terminology.

You need to stop and think about that for a bit and what it implies. This concludes my soujourn through defensive terminology for today. The first tee is summoning.

 

[gopkrs]

The defensive back is a linebacker on that play, therefore there aren't six DBs on the field, hence no dime defense either.

So what if you just took out a bona fide linebacker to have the DB play there?

 

[Dantés]

You need to stop and think about that for a bit and what it implies. This concludes my soujourn through defensive terminology for today. The first tee is summoning.

And I would say you need to stop and realize that while your understanding of hybrid roles is spot on, your understanding of personnel package terminology is not.

Enjoy your rounds.

 

[Dantés]

https://steelersdepot.com/2018/05/film-room-what-the-dime-linebacker-means-in-pittsburghs-defense/

Here's another helpful visual. Notice the dime linebacker is the 6th DB (not 7th).

 

[GleefulGary]

Fine.

We're doing this, I guess.

My take:

In this day and age of scheming/fluidity, positional status does not matter except for the players themselves bc of pay rate.

If you have an OL that comes in lined up as a TE, is he an extra OL or a TE? He's legally able to run routes like a TE, but strictly speaking, his role is to block like an OL would. So what is he? If you ask me, he's a potential mismatch! But really, regardless of lining up like a TE, he's an OL.

Or take Duke Johnson, James White. They're RB's that catch the ball. They often run routes out of the slot. So are they WR's? No, they're just versatile and potential mismatches.

Players used to stay at their position and do only that role. That doesn't happen very anymore. Players have multiple roles. Hence, you have guys playing box safety and ILB. But are they playing like a traditional Mike, Sam, or Will? No. It's just where they've lined up that predicates what people call the position. So even if they have a similar role as to what they did before, their position changes based on alignment? That seems silly to me. You can have a play where you line up David Bakhtiari where a WR goes, but that doesn't make him a WR.

Anyways, positional status really doesn't matter. Coaches on both sides are just trying to find mismatches, whether that be lining a RB in the slot, and a safety at LB to do that, or putting an extra OL at TE. It's just mismatches. Positional status doesn't matter. BB doesn't care about positions. Just put guys where they win, and where they can make mismatches.

 

[GleefulGary]

Whether it matters or not, there is a distinction. If you look at the video in post #44 above where Mark Barron tackles Aaron Jones for a safety, you'll see that 210 lb. defensive player playing LILB, jetting in to make the tackle before the reach block can get to him. This is what "hybrid ILB" run defense is supposd to look like even if the blocking assignments look confused on this play.

There's also clearly a RILB, regardless of who he is, what he looks like, or what his position designation is on the roster sheet. There's also an 8th. man in the box lined up in the gap between the LDE and LDT in this run sell-out defense against an 8 man O-Line/ single wideout. I can't see that 8th. guys number, I don't know his hight and weight, I don't know what he's called on the roster sheet. But that's a box safety.

There's really not a distinction, and it doesn't matter. It's all about creating mismatches. With offenses being more spread out and multiple, your defense has to as well. Call it a hybrid LB, call it a dime LB, call it twinkletoes, I do not care. Role is what matters, not position.

 

[GleefulGary]

You're all imbeciles.

 

[GleefulGary]

Look at Derwin James.

He lined up SS, BS, ILB, OLB, Edge, NB, and probably some more that I'm missing.

He was a safety on all of those plays. His role changed, but he was always a safety. He can line up at Edge, but he's not an edge. He's a safety pass rushing the C Gap. Or he's a safety going man to man on a slot. Or a TE. Or maybe he's got a deep third to cover, maybe he's got a deep half. Maybe he's covering the outside flat. His positional status does not change depending on his role.

 

[Dantés]

Another example--

If the Packers come out in 12 personnel with Lewis and Graham lined up in line, and then motion Graham out wide, they didn't transition to 11 personnel. Even though functionally that lineup would be virtually identical to 11, it's still 12... because it's about personnel, not alignment.

 

[HardRightEdge]

Okay guys, so if your definitions are correct, what's a "dime linebacker?"

Back from golf. I already described it a couple of times.

6 DBs, 4 rush men, and guy who drops into short middle zone. That could be a 3-safety dime or a 4-corner dime. That latter case is where you see a "dime corner" on the field, by the way. If all goes well that will be Williams coming off the bench in place of an ILB, upping the pass coverage from nickel to dime. It's a long yardage defense run about 10% of the time.

In 2016 it was often Joe Thomas playing dime ILB, and he wasn't very good at it. Since, we've had a parade of guys try their had at it including Martinez. Martinez is not a good fit. It was supposed to be Jones then Burks, just the kind of thing you'd want a converted safety to play. It has been Whitehead for a brief wihile, now it could be Greene evidently, or maybe even Amos.

On those rare occasions where they rush 3 and drop 8 in very long yardage, lets say playing 4 across zone high and 4 across intermediate, I don't care what you call those 2 guys in the short intermediate middle. It doesn't happen often enough to parse it out. Call it a half dollar if you like.