Reggie Begelton Thread

[PikeBadger]

As I've mentioned on several occasions that's wishful thinking with the numbers over the past few years suggesting it's completely unrealistic.

Remember Adams and Nelson in year 2? Remember Adams and Nelson in year 3?

I didn’t think so.

It’s plainly obvious you don’t believe in player development.

I believe.

 

[Sunshinepacker]

Remember Adams and Nelson in year 2? Remember Adams and Nelson in year 3?

I didn’t think so.

It’s plainly obvious you don’t believe in player development.

I believe.

Both of those players were second round picks which is sightly different and does matter. While I certainly hope you're correct on the third year receivers turning the corner, the concern is that they haven't shown they can be reliable and the Packers have been forced into a position where they can only hope they have improved massively in year three.

Gute has done some things well but he hasn't been perfect and one of the concerns is that the receiving corps appears to be fairly low on his list of priorities.

 

[PikeBadger]

Both of those players were second round picks which is sightly different and does matter. While I certainly hope you're correct on the third year receivers turning the corner, the concern is that they haven't shown they can be reliable and the Packers have been forced into a position where they can only hope they have improved massively in year three.

Gute has done some things well but he hasn't been perfect and one of the concerns is that the receiving corps appears to be fairly low on his list of priorities.

Ok then, , how about Tramon Williams and Sam Shields on the other side of the ball. They didn’t come in and start right away either.

We need one guy to become a bonafide #2 receiver out of a group of about 5 with similar amounts of experience in the league. My personal money is on Lazard or Scantling but it may not be that way in week 1. I want to see improvement all the way into the playoffs. If that means running the ball more in the first month, so be it.

 

[Sunshinepacker]

Ok then, , how about Tramon Williams and Sam Shields on the other side of the ball. They didn’t come in and start right away either.

We need one guy to become a bonafide #2 receiver out of a group of about 5 with similar amounts of experience in the league. My personal money is on Lazard or Scantling but it may not be that way in week 1. I want to see improvement all the way into the playoffs. If that means running the ball more in the first month, so be it.

Let me be clear, I'm hoping you're correct. I'm just looking at the history of guys drafted where our young receivers were drafted and the chances of those guys turning into legit #2 receivers isn't very strong. I think Lazard could be a very good third receiver but the Packers really need MVS or ESB to become a legit #2 because the Packers need to add a deep threat to the offense at some point (MVS is obviously the preferred choice but ESB would add speed as well). Right now the offense doesn't have a deep threat and that makes it harder for both they passing game and running game to operate.

 

[tynimiller]

I think like we saw last year in Lazard someone will enhance and advance their capabilities and output. MVS did so as a rookie, Lazard did so last year.

The real question is will either of those continue to do so in 2020, one after a rougher year the other having only had one year.

So I fully expect EQ, or Kumerow, Turner, Begelton, Ervin or either of the two mentioned to do so in 2020...will that mean a bona-fide no doubt #2 will occur....eh....but one of them I guarantee will answer the bell to a degree.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Agree with much of this but I think the young WR’s and TE’s will exceed most people’s expectations on this forum. I’m expecting improvement from them as a whole.

I didn't buy into that theory before last season and definitely not buying into it this season, especially when it comes to the WR group. I realize that sometimes you get lucky and land a real gem with a mid to late round pick or UDFA WR, but having this many unproven players for the 2nd season in a row? Besides Davante Adams, we have.....

• MVS: 5th Round
• ESB: 6th Round
  
• Allen Lazard: UDFA
• Jake K: UDFA
• Darrius Shepherd: UDFA
  
• Malick Turner: UDFA
• Reggie Begelton:UDFA/CFL

The other things to note, none of these guys are rookies. Besides Begelton, all have had their chances in the NFL, with really only Lazard proving that he has a future and ESB still a bit unknown what he can bring. Jump ahead one year from now and I could easily see a scenario where the rest of the guys aren't even playing in the NFL.

Like I said, its awesome when you can have a mid to late round WR blossom, but over relying on that to happen for the second straight season? Not to mention that the Packers haven't had anyone coming out of the 4th round or later at WR look very good at any point since they drafted Donald Driver, over 21 years ago.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

I would love if this was true because it would mean the Packers are only "better coaching"away from being an elite defense. Unfortunately that's just not true. The issue in the NFCCG was certainly some coaching, but much of it was also just not enough good players. Packers didn't (and probably still don't) have enough good players to stop a dominant run team. Yes, Zadarius can rush the passer from the DT position really well, but he can't stop the run from there. Packers have only one quality defensive lineman and nothing close to the kind of elite ILB you'd need to compensate for that. Trying to pawn off one of the worst run stopping defensive games I've ever seen at the professional level on "gameplan" is just not accurate.

You're right about the Packers lacking the talent to stop a rushing offense like the one they faced against the Niners in the NFCCG. Fortunately there aren't a lot of teams being able to run such an offense in the league.

Holding my breath on linebackers. Really just need one to play alongside Kirksey. Maybe Martin will be that guy. Don't care if he is a rookie or not. If he is next best...play him. I'll live with a few mistakes. Maybe Burks will be better. Maybe Bolton will come on. I have some hope for the first time is awhile. Never liked Martinez to play the run.

The inside linebacker group doesn't seem to be improved over last season's unit.

Remember Adams and Nelson in year 2? Remember Adams and Nelson in year 3?

I didn’t think so.

It’s plainly obvious you don’t believe in player development.

I believe.

Adams and Nelson found themselves in completely different situations in year two and three of their careers as the Packers had two elite receivers in front of them on the depth chart instead of being in desperate need of a #2 wideout.

I believe in player development but to expect a majority of them, especially when talking about late round picks or undrafted free agents, pto make a significant jump is unrealistic.

Ok then, , how about Tramon Williams and Sam Shields on the other side of the ball. They didn’t come in and start right away either.

It's definitely true that some undrafted free agents beat the odds to become significant contributors at the pro level. You're making the mistake of expecting others to follow that path as well while completely ignoring that the vast majority never do though.

I think like we saw last year in Lazard someone will enhance and advance their capabilities and output. MVS did so as a rookie, Lazard did so last year.

As I've mentioned on several occasions, when you take a closer look at Lazard's numbers it's pretty obvious he struggled against decent secondaries last season.

 

[tynimiller]

As I've mentioned on several occasions, when you take a closer look at Lazard's numbers it's pretty obvious he struggled against decent secondaries last season.

100% agree, but he still enhanced or progressed. Was he a legit #2 due to this progression, absolutely not in my opinion.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Was he a legit #2 due to this progression, absolutely not in my opinion.

Agreed, Lazard was a "#2" more by deduction/default last season. He started out on the PS for Pete Sake! That alone has to tell you something about the quality of depth the Packers began 2019 with and it looks pretty much the same this season. When you have a QB like Aaron Rodgers and only one legit starting WR in Davante Adams, other guys are going to get some chances, as well as some stats. Currently, I would not view any of our receivers from #2 down as legit starters on most NFL teams.

 

[GleefulGary]

The ILB group is definitely better than last year.

 

[thequick12]

Let me be clear, I'm hoping you're correct. I'm just looking at the history of guys drafted where our young receivers were drafted and the chances of those guys turning into legit #2 receivers isn't very strong. I think Lazard could be a very good third receiver but the Packers really need MVS or ESB to become a legit #2 because the Packers need to add a deep threat to the offense at some point (MVS is obviously the preferred choice but ESB would add speed as well). Right now the offense doesn't have a deep threat and that makes it harder for both they passing game and running game to operate.

Lets look at the stats because where one was drafted doesn't matter on the field...

Donald Driver 7th
1: 3 of 6 for 31 and 1
2. 21 of 49 for 322 and 1
3. 13 of 19 for 167 and 1
4. 70 of 113 for 1064 and 9

Greg Jennings 2nd
1.45 of 104 for 632 and 3
2. 53 of 84 for 920 and 12
3. 80 of 140 for 1292 and 9
4. 68 of 119 for 1113 and 4

James Jones 3rd
1. 47 of 80 for 676 and 2
2. 20 of 30 for 274 and 1
3. 32 of 62 for 440 and 5
4. 50 of 87 for 679 and 5

Jordy Nelson 2nd
1. 33 of 54 for 366 and 2
2. 22 of 31 for 320 and 2
3. 45 of 64 for 582 and 2
4. 68 of 96 for 1263 and 15

Randall Cobb 2nd
1. 25 of 31 for 375 and 1
2. 80 of 104 for 954 and 8
3. 31 of 47 for 433 and 4
4. 91 of 127 for 1287 and 12

Davante Adams 2nd
1. 38 of 66 for 446 and 3
2. 50 of 94 for 483 and 1
3. 75 of 121 for 997 and 12
4. 74 of 117 for 885 and 10

MVS 5th
1. 38 of 73 for 581 and 2
2. 26 of 56 for 452 and 2

EQSB 6th
1. 21 of 36 for 328 and 0

Allen Lazard ufa
1. 1 of 1 for 7 and 0
2. 35 of 52 for 477 and 3

Save for Jennings and Cobb in year 2 I'd say all the stats are relatively comparable...

 

[Sunshinepacker]

Lets look at the stats because where one was drafted doesn't matter on the field...

Donald Driver 7th
1: 3 of 6 for 31 and 1
2. 21 of 49 for 322 and 1
3. 13 of 19 for 167 and 1
4. 70 of 113 for 1064 and 9

Greg Jennings 2nd
1.45 of 104 for 632 and 3
2. 53 of 84 for 920 and 12
3. 80 of 140 for 1292 and 9
4. 68 of 119 for 1113 and 4

James Jones 3rd
1. 47 of 80 for 676 and 2
2. 20 of 30 for 274 and 1
3. 32 of 62 for 440 and 5
4. 50 of 87 for 679 and 5

Jordy Nelson 2nd
1. 33 of 54 for 366 and 2
2. 22 of 31 for 320 and 2
3. 45 of 64 for 582 and 2
4. 68 of 96 for 1263 and 15

Randall Cobb 2nd
1. 25 of 31 for 375 and 1
2. 80 of 104 for 954 and 8
3. 31 of 47 for 433 and 4
4. 91 of 127 for 1287 and 12

Davante Adams 2nd
1. 38 of 66 for 446 and 3
2. 50 of 94 for 483 and 1
3. 75 of 121 for 997 and 12
4. 74 of 117 for 885 and 10

MVS 5th
1. 38 of 73 for 581 and 2
2. 26 of 56 for 452 and 2

EQSB 6th
1. 21 of 36 for 328 and 0

Allen Lazard ufa
1. 1 of 1 for 7 and 0
2. 35 of 52 for 477 and 3

Save for Jennings and Cobb in year 2 I'd say all the stats are relatively comparable...

Ok, now do the percent of those late picks that work out that well, cause that matters a LOT more than citing 3 or 4 total players over 15 years.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Lets look at the stats because where one was drafted doesn't matter on the field...

Yet there is that pesky history aspect to have to explain. You know, the one where Donald Driver is the only WR drafted/UDFA signed after the 3rd round that had any kind of prolonged success in Green Bay since 1999. Meanwhile,many of those WR's drafted rounds 1-3 have had decent success. Driver isnt just an anomaly either, look at the Packer draft history, Walter Stanley, round 4 in 84?

Trying to compare MVS, ESB and Lazard numbers at this point is trying to tell a story that hasn't been completed. Let us also not forget the quality of depth during the time that Driver, Jennings, Jones, Nelson, Cobb and Adams played in Green Bay, thus having to share snaps and stats with other players. Lazards numbers weren't too bad last year mainly because everyone not names Adams pretty much stunk.

 

[sschind]

Lets look at the stats because where one was drafted doesn't matter on the field...

Donald Driver 7th
1: 3 of 6 for 31 and 1
2. 21 of 49 for 322 and 1
3. 13 of 19 for 167 and 1
4. 70 of 113 for 1064 and 9

Greg Jennings 2nd
1.45 of 104 for 632 and 3
2. 53 of 84 for 920 and 12
3. 80 of 140 for 1292 and 9
4. 68 of 119 for 1113 and 4

James Jones 3rd
1. 47 of 80 for 676 and 2
2. 20 of 30 for 274 and 1
3. 32 of 62 for 440 and 5
4. 50 of 87 for 679 and 5

Jordy Nelson 2nd
1. 33 of 54 for 366 and 2
2. 22 of 31 for 320 and 2
3. 45 of 64 for 582 and 2
4. 68 of 96 for 1263 and 15

Randall Cobb 2nd
1. 25 of 31 for 375 and 1
2. 80 of 104 for 954 and 8
3. 31 of 47 for 433 and 4
4. 91 of 127 for 1287 and 12

Davante Adams 2nd
1. 38 of 66 for 446 and 3
2. 50 of 94 for 483 and 1
3. 75 of 121 for 997 and 12
4. 74 of 117 for 885 and 10

MVS 5th
1. 38 of 73 for 581 and 2
2. 26 of 56 for 452 and 2

EQSB 6th
1. 21 of 36 for 328 and 0

Allen Lazard ufa
1. 1 of 1 for 7 and 0
2. 35 of 52 for 477 and 3

Save for Jennings and Cobb in year 2 I'd say all the stats are relatively comparable...

I wonder what fans were saying about Driver, Jennings, Jones, Nelson, Cobb and Adams after their first two seasons? Like Poker said its hard to do a direct comparison because of the depth of the groups when those guys first came up. It was hard to get targets. When you have more than 1 WR on you team somebody has to be #2.

Given that Adams was our only legitimate option for the last two years ( Cobb was hurt most of his last year here giving several guys a chance to step up) the fact that none of the group of Super Jake and the Wonder Triplets stepped up and grabbed that chance scares me a little. While I do think one may still have a chance to be a contributor I'm not too confident that any of them will ever become more than an OK #3. Of course when you consider that they were all day three picks that's about all I think you can realistically expect from them. You can certainly hope for more and you may get it but to expect it IMO is unreasonable.

It took an UDFA more than half a season in that second year to even break away from the pack a little bit and I think he will be given the best opportunity to keep building on that break away but I am not going to hold my breath.

All I can say is that if the second leading pass catcher on the Packers this year is running back I will be very disappointed.

 

[tynimiller]

With all due respect...MVS had a heck of a rookie campaign...for a rookie.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

With all due respect...MVS had a heck of a rookie campaign...for a rookie.

....and a pretty crappy 2nd year, so what will we see in year 3 and should the Packers rely on it? MVS is exactly one of the reasons the Packers whiffed again this off season. Besides signing Funchess, a 2nd tier type of FA, they are continuing their reliance at WR on Adams and guys who have yet to fully prove that they are a consistent NFL WR.

When you have a QB like Aaron Rodgers and a team that went 12-4 last year, IMO its a travesty to only have one proven WR threat.

 

[tynimiller]

As I've said numerous times I agree 100%. Funchess was as you said a tier two FA, which if paired with a Day 2 or higher WR plus the Begelton addition...I mean one could disagree with whom each signing or draftee was, but no one could IMO argue they ignored attempting to fix the WR room.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

As I've said numerous times I agree 100%. Funchess was as you said a tier two FA, which if paired with a Day 2 or higher WR plus the Begelton addition...I mean one could disagree with whom each signing or draftee was, but no one could IMO argue they ignored attempting to fix the WR room.

I guess it depends on how you view or define "attempting to fix". I liken what the Packers did to the WR room with a plumber wrapping a leaking drain pipe with duct tape, instead of replacing it with a new shiny one. The tape might actually hold off any major leaks, but for how long and what happens when it bursts in the middle of doing dishes?

 

[tynimiller]

I mean the crazy thing is EVEN if say MVS exhibits more of what we all hoped after year 1, than year 2...or EQ just shines or Lazard explodes...I'd still argue that doesn't override the factual statements of those claiming Gute flat out dropped ball on WR position for sure.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

I mean the crazy thing is EVEN if say MVS exhibits more of what we all hoped after year 1, than year 2...or EQ just shines or Lazard explodes...I'd still argue that doesn't override the factual statements of those claiming Gute flat out dropped ball on WR position for sure.

No doubt IF all that happens, the Packers offense could be tough to stop....then again I fall back to the old saying...."If "ifs" and "buts" were candy and nuts, wouldn't it be a Merry Christmas?"

Something that isn't mentioned here and I think it probably had something to do with MVS having a bad second year is "expectations as well as surrounding talent". I think some guys just aren't mentally cut out to be over relied on in their first few NFL seasons. MVS was shoved into that role last season, most expecting him to improve upon a good rookie year. Most thinking that he HAD to improve, because there wasn't much talent below him. When you watch how last season unfolded for the WR group, everyone but Davante seemingly under performing, Davis traded and Shepherd demoted. The Packers were lucky to have been able to keep Lazard on the PS and promote him to the 53.

For years under McCarthy the Packers benefited by having a solid corp of at least 2, if not 3 really good WR's and that allowed younger guys and relatively high draft picks like Jennings, Jones, Nelson, Cobb, Adams to slowly break into the starting lineup. I don't see that ideal situation anymore, as well as the fact that the Packers are trying to accomplish building a solid receiving group with late round picks and UDFA's.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Let's hope AR is right about MVS....

https://www.packersnews.com/videos/...-receiver-ive-been-most-impressed/5696905002/

 

[GreenNGold_81]

Cut.... Dang.

 

[GreenNGold_81]

Signed to practice squad. Good!

 

[gopkrs]

With no preseason; I have no idea what to think about him.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

With no preseason; I have no idea what to think about him.

JAG.....with possible potential.....pretty much that sums up the WR group once you get past.....Adams.