Rebuild a new LaFleur offense or get what Pettine needs on defense?

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brandon2348

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You're in for a world of fun you crazy person you.

INSANITY!!!

What's ironic is the same people wanting to draft more defense with top picks are the same people who wanted to keep going with Ted Thompson.

Now if that's not "INSANITY" I dont know what is.
 
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WR Heavy? I don't consider drafting 3 receivers on day 3 "WR Heavy"
I don’t think so. It’s conceivable at least 1 WR will make a jump. But after losing two veteran former 2nd day picks recently it’s not unlikely at all LaFleur lobbies for another upper echelon playmaker. I think some folks in here may be surprised.

I'm not opposed to taking b**** offensive players, but if the better ones available on defense, take the better player. Hypothetically, if a 2nd tier WR is taken when a 1st tier DE/OLB is available, that's probably a bad move.
It’s interesting. I’ve heard that same sentiment repeatedly but it’s like an anomaly because never an example in the reverse direction( Citing taking O early if a OL, WR, RB or TE is there). I’m going to take you for your word and just to be certain it makes me ask the question. Are you advocating that if the BAP is Offense at #12, #30 and #44 you’d honestly be completely comfortable with that? That is not unlikely at all simply because I believe 8 of the top 10 or so will likely be picked on the Defensive side, which likely leaves a very talented O player at #12.
 
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mradtke66

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The probabilities of a player panning out is much higher with using top picks. Thats just a fact.

Yes, the Packers have done a decent job picking later with OL and a handfull of position players. However, it's obvious the overall talent on offense has suffered using such practices as there only method.

The problem is you're arguing from a point of absolutes and false dichotomies.

I don't disagree with the idea that we're missing top-end players on the offense. That doesn't mean the defense isn't lacking those top-end players as well, regardless of who we've drafted thus far.

We could use good, impactful players everywhere on the roster. Save for RG, every spot is "good enough to win with," but we're lacking stars. I don't care where we get them and if a WR is picked at 12 or 30, I'm not going to be upset. But if you pass on what looks like getting the next LT (the original LT) or Reggie White just for a Greg Jennings, I'm going to question your judgement.

From there, it's positional value. Pass rushers of any kind are rarer that pretty much anything other than quarterbacks. It's why they are more likely to be drafted early. WRs tend to take a year to acclimate and are more common, so, they get drafted later. Right-side offensive linemen are typically valued lower than left-side players, so again, they're drafted later.

Under the old regime, I liked their approach to getting linemen: take guys who were college tackles that can't hack it at tackle in the pros, and turn them into guards. It lets you get mid to late round picks that are (typically) good pass protector technicians for low draft capital. It'll be interesting to if that continues or not. That'll depend in part on what they're looking for in lineman going forward. Maybe Spriggs slides over to guard and becomes the next Mike Wahl. You know, second-round college tackle that busted at LT and got slid over to LG? Though I'd be pretty bemused if all that draft capital ends up being a RG, which is typically the least-valuable offensive lineman, it really doesn't matter how it ends up, so long as we have a good player.
 

mradtke66

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It’s interesting. I’ve heard that same sentinrng repeatedly but never an example in the reverse direction? That maybe just an anomaly, like a lunar eclipse or something but it makes me ask the question. Are you advocating that if the BAP is Offense at #12, #30 and #44 you’d be completely comfortable with that?

Potentially, but I think that's less likely because outside of QB and maybe LT, offensive players aren't necessarily worth the higher picks.

The best offensive lineman can only block one guy. Line up a half dead sack of crap over your all-pro RT and he'll have to block him to maintain integrity of the scheme. A great defensive lineman/edge rusher can demand a double team and possibly split it. Or your one great rusher can flip sides and go up against your worst blocker. I don't know of too many schemes where offensive linemen flip sides.

In short, I put a lot of value on the position as well as the player. Roughly, I'd rank the positions:

1. QB
2. Edge Rusher
2b. Interior rusher
2c. CB
3. WR
4. O-Line/Safety
5. TE/ILB
6. RB
12. FB

Obviously talent levels change the value. I'd take the next Ed Reed higher than most any other positions, for example.
 
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brandon2348

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The problem is you're arguing from a point of absolutes and false dichotomies.

I don't disagree with the idea that we're missing top-end players on the offense. That doesn't mean the defense isn't lacking those top-end players as well, regardless of who we've drafted thus far.

We could use good, impactful players everywhere on the roster. Save for RG, every spot is "good enough to win with," but we're lacking stars. I don't care where we get them and if a WR is picked at 12 or 30, I'm not going to be upset. But if you pass on what looks like getting the next LT (the original LT) or Reggie White just for a Greg Jennings, I'm going to question your judgement.

From there, it's positional value. Pass rushers of any kind are rarer that pretty much anything other than quarterbacks. It's why they are more likely to be drafted early. WRs tend to take a year to acclimate and are more common, so, they get drafted later. Right-side offensive linemen are typically valued lower than left-side players, so again, they're drafted later.

Under the old regime, I liked their approach to getting linemen: take guys who were college tackles that can't hack it at tackle in the pros, and turn them into guards. It lets you get mid to late round picks that are (typically) good pass protector technicians for low draft capital. It'll be interesting to if that continues or not. That'll depend in part on what they're looking for in lineman going forward. Maybe Spriggs slides over to guard and becomes the next Mike Wahl. You know, second-round college tackle that busted at LT and got slid over to LG? Though I'd be pretty bemused if all that draft capital ends up being a RG, which is typically the least-valuable offensive lineman, it really doesn't matter how it ends up, so long as we have a good player.

Once again the odds go up on success rate depending on how high you draft a specific need. If everyone was so happy drafting on day 3 they would trade there 1st and 2nd round picks for beaucoup day 3 picks. Obviously nobody does that unless they have low draft capital to begin with heading into draft.

When you start getting into day 3 you start to get into guys that are going to be athletically challenged at the next level. That doesn't mean you can't find good players there but its more rare and sporadic.
 
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brandon2348

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Potentially, but I think that's less likely because outside of QB and maybe LT, offensive players aren't necessarily worth the higher picks.

The best offensive lineman can only block one guy. Line up a half dead sack of crap over your all-pro RT and he'll have to block him to maintain integrity of the scheme. A great defensive lineman/edge rusher can demand a double team and possibly split it. Or your one great rusher can flip sides and go up against your worst blocker. I don't know of too many schemes where offensive linemen flip sides.

In short, I put a lot of value on the position as well as the player. Roughly, I'd rank the positions:

1. QB
2. Edge Rusher
2b. Interior rusher
2c. CB
3. WR
4. O-Line/Safety
5. TE/ILB
6. RB
12. FB

Obviously talent levels change the value. I'd take the next Ed Reed higher than most any other positions, for example.

The Packers already have lots of premium draft capital tied up on the defensive side of the ball to develop though.

The Packers haven't drafted anyone elite on offense for years.

"INSANITY"
 

mradtke66

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The Packers already have lots of premium draft capital tied up on the defensive side of the ball to develop though.

The Packers haven't drafted anyone elite on offense for years.

But if they're not any good, it doesn't matter where they were drafted. If they aren't good enough, get some better players to replace them.

Part of that is positional value. Receivers worth a 1st are rare, but pretty good ones are common. Reaching for one early just because you need one isn't necessarily a good use of resources. Honestly, a single WR just doesn't have the same, consistent impact to the game that other positions do. And besides, all of our recent, good ones have been 2s.
 
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brandon2348

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But if they're not any good, it doesn't matter where they were drafted. If they aren't good enough, get some better players to replace them.

Part of that is positional value. Receivers worth a 1st are rare, but pretty good ones are common. Reaching for one early just because you need one isn't necessarily a good use of resources. Honestly, a single WR just doesn't have the same, consistent impact to the game that other positions do. And besides, all of our recent, good ones have been 2s.

Good Receivers are commanding huge huge $ in free agency. In fact Gute got priced out by other teams last offseason.

Until the Packers demonstrate a clear vision on defense I'm not on board with continuing to just keep using all top picks on "Just Defense." Just to replace them again in a couple years because they weren't good enough players. That "INSANITY" is gonna take us to 4-12 real soon.

A 2nd round pick at receiver? Even that hasn't been done since 2014.
 
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Well, since three points per game more is how much the Packers needed to score to be a top-10 offense it does kinda matter. I brought up the difference to illustrate the point that with an injured QB, without the projected #2 WR, with rookie WRs playing extensively, and a coach that refused to use Jones for half the season, the Packers were really close to being a top-10 offense. Some people seem to think the Packers need a LOT of help to become a top-10 offense while actually looking at what happened last year would seem to imply that the team wasn't that far from being top-1o even with all of the handicaps last year.

But hey, I get it, you'd rather the team focus on the offense in the off-season; offense is fun to watch so there's certainly an upside to going all-in on offense. I just happen to think the defense needs far more help than the offense.

Aside of Brandon there's hasn't been another poster suggesting the Packers should solely focus on improving the offense this offseason.

There's no doubt in my mind they need to add some talent on that side of the ball to once again have a top 10 offense in 2019 again.
 
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brandon2348

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Aside of Brandon there's hasn't been another poster suggesting the Packers should solely focus on improving the offense this offseason.

There's no doubt in my mind they need to add some talent on that side of the ball to once again have a top 10 offense in 2019 again.

My vision towards the defense is too sign a couple free agents. More specifically an edge guy and a free safety.

I have the Packers mocked out to draft offense in rounds 1-3(which is desperately needed) and then adding some depth to the defense on day 3 of the draft

So in no way am I completely ignoring the defense.
 
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My vision towards the defense is too sign a couple free agents. More specifically an edge guy and a free safety.

The Packers signing a veteran edge rusher and free safety in free agency would definitely change priorities tilted towards the offense in the draft.
 

elcid

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My vision towards the defense is too sign a couple free agents. More specifically an edge guy and a free safety.

I have the Packers mocked out to draft offense in rounds 1-3(which is desperately needed) and then adding some depth to the defense on day 3 of the draft

So in no way am I completely ignoring the defense.
I would advocate taking 3 offensive players but at least 1 of our early picks in these rounds will have to be spend on a defensive need (EDGE, FS, ILB). There is no way you can ignore these needs till day 3
 
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I would advocate taking 3 offensive players but at least 1 of our early picks in these rounds will have to be spend on a defensive need (EDGE, FS, ILB). There is no way you can ignore these needs till day 3

If the position in need of an upgrade on defense get addressed in free agency it's possible to draft offense during the first two days of the draft.
 

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I"d rather draft the "next" edge guy than pay one now. They're nice to have, they're very expensive though if they're worth anything. QB, EDGE and LT are very expensive, even for slightly above mediocre. I think there's a lot more value in ILB, safety, OG's etc in FA than edge rushers.
 

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I"d rather draft the "next" edge guy than pay one now. They're nice to have, they're very expensive though if they're worth anything. QB, EDGE and LT are very expensive, even for slightly above mediocre. I think there's a lot more value in ILB, safety, OG's etc in FA than edge rushers.

Not even iOL. And rightfully so. Look at the pass rushing iDL in the league. Guards can't be overlooked anymore.
 

elcid

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If the position in need of an upgrade on defense get addressed in free agency it's possible to draft offense during the first two days of the draft.
Of course, but my post was with respect to the roster rn. Furthermore I deem it highy unlikely that we will find a quality starting edge rusher, free safety ánd cover linebacker in FA. Therefore spending at least 1 premium pick on the defense will be desirable imo
 
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brandon2348

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Of course, but my post was with respect to the roster rn. Furthermore I deem it highy unlikely that we will find a quality starting edge rusher, free safety ánd cover linebacker in FA. Therefore spending at least 1 premium pick on the defense will be desirable imo

They have drafted both Josh Jones and Burks to play coverage from the LB spot. The picks have already been made and they need to develop those guys. This is exactly what I mean about the "INSANITY" to just keep drafting players with top picks over and over to do the same thing.

I don't want a rookie safety back there and would rather take a chance on an older vet with where this team is at. Edge might be tougher in FA to get but we simply don't know what will be available yet.
 

mradtke66

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Safety is a position that is potentially worth signing in FA, assuming a good one is available. (Earl Thomas scares me. Old, injured, etc. I presume someone else will offer him too much to make the risk worth it.)

The league seems to be under-valuing the position, at least they did last FA period. That leads me to believe you could spend less and get more to fill us out. Which is the opposite of EDGE, where those salaries, even for average-to-above-average starters make some serious bank.
 

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I’m not an advocate of going all offense, but this “all defense” approach has been the mindset for a long time and has yeilded minimal results.

The Packers need to invest some draft capital back into the offense.

I never said they should ignore the offense, I didn't think it was an either/or question. The defense just needs more help to become good than the offense does so it probably makes sense to lean defense when drafting.
 

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My vision towards the defense is too sign a couple free agents. More specifically an edge guy and a free safety.

I have the Packers mocked out to draft offense in rounds 1-3(which is desperately needed) and then adding some depth to the defense on day 3 of the draft

So in no way am I completely ignoring the defense.

The positions of need on defense tend to be positions that command a LOT of money in free agency (namely, pass rusher) while the positions of need on offense tend to be relatively cheaper. Signing a decent free agent guard and slot receiver would probably cost loss COMBINED than signing a good free agent pass rusher. Packers can't ignore the offense in the draft but their needs on offense aren't really the bank-breaking positions.
 

PackAttack12

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I never said they should ignore the offense, I didn't think it was an either/or question. The defense just needs more help to become good than the offense does so it probably makes sense to lean defense when drafting.
We're slowly but surely finding some common ground. I can get with this. My biggest contention is that the Packers overall just need more playmakers, at all positions on the field so whoever the best player available is, the Packers should take that player regardless of position.

I just don't want to see the Packers go all defense early in this draft "just because" the way that it seems they have in recent years.

If the Packers have to overpay a little bit to acquire a couple of veteran difference makers on defense, and still find a way to draft its way into a potent offense, that to me is a recipe for success in Rodgers' later years. We'll know soon enough the Packers thought process.
The positions of need on defense tend to be positions that command a LOT of money in free agency (namely, pass rusher) while the positions of need on offense tend to be relatively cheaper. Signing a decent free agent guard and slot receiver would probably cost loss COMBINED than signing a good free agent pass rusher. Packers can't ignore the offense in the draft but their needs on offense aren't really the bank-breaking positions.
The word 'decent' is what's bumping me. I'm tired of 'decent' on offense outside of the quarterback.
 
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brandon2348

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The positions of need on defense tend to be positions that command a LOT of money in free agency (namely, pass rusher) while the positions of need on offense tend to be relatively cheaper. Signing a decent free agent guard and slot receiver would probably cost loss COMBINED than signing a good free agent pass rusher. Packers can't ignore the offense in the draft but their needs on offense aren't really the bank-breaking positions.

Yes, but there is no guarantee that the pass rusher you draft is gonna be anything great. I am just bent on the Packers drafting defense overall as they have proven there not that great at it.

They have done pretty good with acquiring defensive free agents over the years.

Charles Woodson
Julius Peppers
Ryan Pickett
Reggie White
Santana Dotson

We need to get back to these types of signings.
 
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