Raji Redux

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AKCheese

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Yup. Just like the "get rid of Hawk" discussions going back 3 years...two cases of one-time core players overstaying the sell-by date. At least with Hawk there was a dead cap amount that provided a disincentive to moving on.

Yeah if only Ted Thompson was as smart as the GM's here. Imagine the Packers sending Hawk out the last 3 years when everyone here knew he didn't belong. Kind of like the people here who somehow know Raji mailed it in all of 2013. How come those guys can't get a job in the NFL.... Crazy
 

adambr2

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So "we" honestly believe that the Packers gave millions of dollars last year to a player they thought was not putting forth honest effort? And "we" anticipate they will do the same thing again this years? Just my opinion, but I think that is ridiculous.

You act like that is some sort of inconceivable thought. Randy Moss wouldn't have lasted 3 years in the league if guys who didn't give honest effort were never given another chance. Guys get paid all the time if the talent is there, because talent can't be taught. Work ethic can be changed. (but doesn't always).

Either Raji was slacking in 2013, or he just got so awful that he turned in one of the worst seasons for a defensive lineman in franchise history. Take your pick. If you want him back, which you obviously do, I think you'd certainly prefer the former.
 

adambr2

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Yeah if only Ted Thompson was as smart as the GM's here. Imagine the Packers sending Hawk out the last 3 years when everyone here knew he didn't belong. Kind of like the people here who somehow know Raji mailed it in all of 2013. How come those guys can't get a job in the NFL.... Crazy

The funny part about your rant is that none of the "GM's" here are saying not to re-sign Raji. They've all pretty much said to give him another shot as long as it's a short, prove it, low money deal. Which pretty much echoes the thoughts of the actual GM. So you're trying to point out a disconnect between what everyone is saying here and what Thompson is thinking, and there isn't any.

By the way, since you appear to think that guys who don't give honest effort don't get chances to come back, I'm assuming you think Matthews will be cut this year? Since you've been more than adamant that he didn't give honest effort the last few minutes of the NFCCG by not being in the game.
 
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HardRightEdge

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Yeah if only Ted Thompson was as smart as the GM's here. Imagine the Packers sending Hawk out the last 3 years when everyone here knew he didn't belong. Kind of like the people here who somehow know Raji mailed it in all of 2013. How come those guys can't get a job in the NFL.... Crazy
Sounds like somebody has a $300 "Raji" game jersey.
 

AKCheese

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"We" know guys who don't put forth honest effort get paid all of the time in this league. College guys with impressive athletic measurements and questionable motors get drafted in the first round. Why? "We" know it's on the hope they'll change their stripes.

You should ask yourself why the Packers went from $8 mil per year offer before the awful 2013 season to one year at $4 mil deal that nobody else wanted to top. I'll answer that for you...it's because everybody knows he tanked
"We" know guys who don't put forth honest effort get paid all of the time in this league. College guys with impressive athletic measurements and questionable motors get drafted in the first round. Why? "We" know it's on the hope they'll change their stripes.

You should ask yourself why the Packers went from $8 mil per year offer before the awful 2013 season to one year at $4 mil deal that nobody else wanted to top. I'll answer that for you...it's because everybody knows he tanked.

You'll have to define "tanked"... Exactly what does that mean and how do you determine that?

Raji A) was playing out of position B) he was part of a team that underperformed

That normally does not translate to teams tripping all over themselves to sign you..... Basic supply and demand guided the Packers offer, which was 4x the league minimum so I'd say they paid a pretty high premium if indeed he was a slug that nobody else wanted. Clearly they felt the need to outbid other teams, or they would have brought him back for a minimum deal. $4M on a one year deal is what you pay to a player you really want to take a look at to see if he'll fit in the new role you have for him. Gets him on your roster, but doesn't commit you in case things don't work out. Or, maybe Ted just threw away $4M on a guy that everyone (except the Packers) knew was a slacker.... Hmmmmm ... Wonder which theory is more plausible
 

AKCheese

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The funny part about your rant is that none of the "GM's" here are saying not to re-sign Raji. They've all pretty much said to give him another shot as long as it's a short, prove it, low money deal. Which pretty much echoes the thoughts of the actual GM. So you're trying to point out a disconnect between what everyone is saying here and what Thompson is thinking, and there isn't any.

By the way, since you appear to think that guys who don't give honest effort don't get chances to come back, I'm assuming you think Matthews will be cut this year? Since you've been more than adamant that he didn't give honest effort the last few minutes of the NFCCG by not being in the game.

His effort at the end of the NFCCG is not a matter of dispute....he quit....he wasn't on the field....what part of that is unclear?
 

adambr2

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Sounds like somebody has a $300 "Raji" game jersey.

I remember in the second half of 2013, after a few empty box scores from Raji, I decided to bring up a few games of him playing on DVR and just watch him to see if he was indeed as bad as the stats showed, or if he was at least drawing doubles and getting penetration, just not finishing. It was astounding to watch. The vast majority of the time, Raji was handily held in check by an opposing guard. Several times against Pittsburgh I rewound and saw Le'veon Bell run by close enough to Raji to kiss him on the cheek, without Raji ever coming close to disengaging his single blocker. It was very painfully obvious that he had phoned it in.

Some people just can't be convinced. It's like the fans who always predictably said "receiver ran a bad route" every time Favre threw an INT.
 

adambr2

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His effort at the end of the NFCCG is not a matter of dispute....he quit....he wasn't on the field....what part of that is unclear?

So you think he will be cut, right? After all, you said it's ridiculous to think that they would keep a player who didn't give honest effort...

If not, that pretty much disproves your original point that they wouldn't want a guy who they think didn't try.

You like Raji, you don't like Matthews. That's obvious, but it's blinding you to the obvious. If you liked Matthews, you'd be screaming, "He said he was injured!! Why wouldn't we believe him? Obviously the coaches believe him!!"
 
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AKCheese

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Mathews never said he was injured. The coaches never said he was injured. There was no injury. He quit. If you're happy with a guy quitting with a championship on the line that's your prerogative. Can he come back from that? Time will tell. Saying he took himself out of a game at a critical juncture with a championship on the line... Is a matter of fact. Saying that Raji "tanked" for an entire season is a matter of pure conjecture, and anyone who (honestly) has nothing better to do than look at Packer game film, needs to get a life. I'm 58 and totally retired and I'm just too busy to even think about that LOL.
 

TJV

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If the Packers sign Raji as expected I hope he plays with the motivation expected of a player with something to prove, something he did not do IMO in 2013. I’d love to see him have a pro bowl worthy season; that’d be a huge plus for the D. The article linked in the OP provides hope not only that Raji will be stronger than ever but also that he’ll be motivated to play his best football. But because I have high hopes for all Packers players doesn’t mean I ignore their past.

An article I’m sure has been linked and quoted before titled “Very little guaranteed money for B.J. Raji”, written in March of last year mentions that Raji’s deal for 2014 contained “merely $500,000 in guaranteed money. Among the 15 defensive tackles who have signed contracts since the start of the free-agent signing period March 11, Raji ranks 13th in guaranteed money.” NFL GMs “vote” with money paid to players through their contracts. So it is not only the amateur GMs here who believe Raji gave less than 100% effort in 2013, it’s GMs throughout the league who also believe that. If not, why didn’t Raji receive an offer before last season commensurate with a 27 year-old 335-ish pound agile and athletic DL who was previously a pro bowl alternate? Even more damning:
Obviously, Raji didn't expect this. He and his agent, David Dunn, turned down the Packers' offer of a long-term extension last season that would have averaged $8 million and contained about $20 million in guarantees. The Packers removed the offer down the stretch when Raji's level of performance continued to decline. Before free agency, they basically told him to test the market with the option of returning for $4 million per year. After 72 hours of shopping, Raji re-signed. "It was probably a slight bit of humility that had to be accepted," an NFL personnel director said Tuesday night. "That's what the market was telling him he was worth. I'm sure he would have taken a better deal if it existed."
Early in that season, the Packers offered a lucrative long-term extension including about $20M in guarantees but pulled that offer in-season and ended up offering him $500K in guaranteed money.
Yeah if only Ted Thompson was as smart as the GM's here. …. Kind of like the people here who somehow know Raji mailed it in all of 2013.
So it’s up to AKCheese to explain why the very smart GM of the Packers did that, if it wasn’t for lack of effort.
A personnel man for another club had a conversation last week with one of Raji's representatives. "They said we could have him for 5 ($5 million per year)," said the executive. "Like, oh gee, thanks. First of all, he (stinks). What's the motivation this year? He blamed it on (the Packers') coaching. Not playing him right." Raji ranked last among the Packers' defensive linemen in tackles per snap and was fourth in pressures per snap. His last sack was in Game 11 of 2011. "The tape ultimately is your calling card," one of the scouts said. "Raji didn't play to the level of the guys that got the big deals. His production, his consistency just wasn't there.
http://www.jsonline.com/sports/pack...-money-for-bj-raji-b99228288z1-250912861.html

Again, I’d LOVE to see a stronger, extremely motivated Raji return to his 2010 play and even better. But denying his lackluster effort in 2013 is ignoring reality, as seen not only by Packers fans who closely watch line play, but by GMs and their staffs around the NFL.
 

AKCheese

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There are a multitude of reasons other than "lack of effort". I've named several. My point is Internet GMs who profess to know a players level of effort are pretty ridiculous. Green Bay paid him 4x what they HAD to pay him. They named him the starter. I used to run my own business, I'd never pay a guy 4x what I could get him for unless I figured I needed to to outbid other people, and I'd NEVER pay ANY money to a guy I thought was a slacker over a protracted period of time. My philosophy proved pretty successful, so I'd imagine GB has a similar mind set.
 
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Raji has the talent. I personally would like to see him back given that its a cheap 1 year prove it deal. If anything else its worth it to have the depth.

If the Packers re-sign Raji they will bring him back to be the starter not to add some

Mathews never said he was injured. The coaches never said he was injured. There was no injury. He quit. If you're happy with a guy quitting with a championship on the line that's your prerogative. Can he come back from that? Time will tell. Saying he took himself out of a game at a critical juncture with a championship on the line... Is a matter of fact. Saying that Raji "tanked" for an entire season is a matter of pure conjecture, and anyone who (honestly) has nothing better to do than look at Packer game film, needs to get a life. I'm 58 and totally retired and I'm just too busy to even think about that LOL.

Matthews said that rib and knee injuries sidelined him during the NFCCG:

http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/290445591.html

He was able to practice three days later at the Pro Bowl though. I´m disappointed by his lack of toughness as well especially when taking a look at Sherman and Thomas being out on the field with major injuries.

You don´t have to watch any film to realize Raji had a terrible season during 2013 while playing in a contract year. PFF ranked him as the worst 3-4 DE during that season. There´s no denying Raji has the athletic ability to be a dominant defensive lineman in the NFL so the best explanation for his terrible season is that he didn´t show any effort.
 

Ogsponge

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Is anyone besides myself trying to figure out if a successful, retired, 58 year old business owner who is way to busy to watch game film actually has the time to post on forums and use the terms "haters gonna hate" and LOL?

Something just does not seem right.
 

adambr2

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Saying that Raji "tanked" for an entire season is a matter of pure conjecture, and anyone who (honestly) has nothing better to do than look at Packer game film, needs to get a life. I'm 58 and totally retired and I'm just too busy to even think about that LOL.

Well, since you obviously feel being retired at 58 puts you in a good position to judge other people on their lives and assume I have none, I'm almost 33, I work 50 hours a week + OT doing shift work at a paper mill so that my wife can stay home and raise our children instead of putting them in daycare. In my spare time, when not spending time with them or friends, my hobbies are anything to do with football, including studying football statistics, looking at plays from the past season, posting about it on here, as well as more casually watching other Wisconsin sports.

Since you seem more qualified to tell me what hobbies would qualify as me having a life, maybe you can enlighten me. "Haters gonna hate," I guess.
 

Sunshinepacker

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So, this Knighton deal bothers me. Now, I'm fully aware that Knighton may very well have never given the Packers a shot to make an offer (doubtful since he was going around looking for money, but still, maybe). However, this annoyance is more in general than aimed at Thompson in particular.

The Redskins just signed Knighton to a one-year $4m deal. So they signed a guy that's actuallly proven himself to be a good NT to the same contract that Raji received when he has proven to be a poor NT. Again, not aimed at Thompson, each year has different markets. Just annoyed that the Packers couldn't have had a shot at Knighton and said "we'll pay you $5m because, well, you can't be any less impactful than the guy we gave $4m to last year and at least you have a track record of being good".

Also, based on the Knighton deal, if the Packers give Raji anything over $2m they are REALLY overpaying. Knighton is ten time the NT that Raji has ever shown himself to be.
 

GreenBaySlacker

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I always believed Raji was left to do the job of an entire D-line for so long, that he gave up. We went from being stacked on the D-line when Raji came in (coming from a 4-3). One good D-lineman after another left. Until pretty soon all that was left was Raji and Pickett. Picketts production completely disapeared too... Mathews double digit sack totals stopped too. All the young pass rushing D-linemen drafted were perpetually hurt. Overall, we didnt have the talent up front, and we wore Raji/Pickett down. News flash, 2 down linemen(one at times even) doesnt work! Our whole defense looked like shizzy, not just Raji.

I can see how someone who pictured themself an all pro, do everything DT. And was delegated the responsibility of taking up blocks by yourself for a few years. To lose motivation to stay in greenbay... Little did Raji know, 1/4 of the NFL brass went through GB, and all of them are friends with GB because GB is is a leader at producing talent. From coaches to players to brass, GB makes it happen. So when GB brass and coaches tell NFL execs during coffee break, that Raji is trying to slack his way out of GB, everyone listens...
 
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I always believed Raji was left to do the job of an entire D-line for so long, that he gave up. We went from being stacked on the D-line when Raji came in (coming from a 4-3). One good D-lineman after another left. Until pretty soon all that was left was Raji and Pickett. Picketts production completely disapeared too... Mathews double digit sack totals stopped too. All the young pass rushing D-linemen drafted were perpetually hurt. Overall, we didnt have the talent up front, and we wore Raji/Pickett down. News flash, 2 down linemen(one at times even) doesnt work! Our whole defense looked like shizzy, not just Raji.

Cullen Jenkins is the only impact defensive lineman the Packers have lost during Raji´s tenure. That doesn´t explain his drop off in performance.
 

TJV

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Little did Raji know, 1/4 of the NFL brass went through GB, and all of them are friends with GB because GB is is a leader at producing talent. From coaches to players to brass, GB makes it happen. So when GB brass and coaches tell NFL execs during coffee break, that Raji is trying to slack his way out of GB, everyone listens...
“Little did Raji know” because you just made all of that up. :rolleyes:
 

adambr2

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I always believed Raji was left to do the job of an entire D-line for so long, that he gave up. We went from being stacked on the D-line when Raji came in (coming from a 4-3). One good D-lineman after another left. Until pretty soon all that was left was Raji and Pickett. Picketts production completely disapeared too... Mathews double digit sack totals stopped too. All the young pass rushing D-linemen drafted were perpetually hurt. Overall, we didnt have the talent up front, and we wore Raji/Pickett down. News flash, 2 down linemen(one at times even) doesnt work! Our whole defense looked like shizzy, not just Raji.

I can see how someone who pictured themself an all pro, do everything DT. And was delegated the responsibility of taking up blocks by yourself for a few years. To lose motivation to stay in greenbay... Little did Raji know, 1/4 of the NFL brass went through GB, and all of them are friends with GB because GB is is a leader at producing talent. From coaches to players to brass, GB makes it happen. So when GB brass and coaches tell NFL execs during coffee break, that Raji is trying to slack his way out of GB, everyone listens...

So Raji wasn't actually slacking in Green Bay. He was just blacklisted in the NFL by the Packers organization. That's your theory?

I didn't realize the Packers brass had so much influence over free agency. Hopefully we will start pulling this will all our prospective FAs to keep their price down.
 
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Mondio

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Cullen Jenkins is the only impact defensive lineman the Packers have lost during Raji´s tenure. That doesn´t explain his drop off in performance.

It's easy to explain his drop off in performance, and that was his obvious and complete drop off in effort :) I don't know why everyone is trying to make it so difficult. All you had to do was watch the game and see he wasn't giving much effort at all. Here was a guy that could blow thru a double team and make contact in the backfield and was now being pushed 3-4 yards or more down field by a single blocker and all he had to do was shed and make a tackle and he'd just watch them run by. no chase down the line, no nothing. He looked like a slug.
 
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It's easy to explain his drop off in performance, and that was his obvious and complete drop off in effort :) I don't know why everyone is trying to make it so difficult. All you had to do was watch the game and see he wasn't giving much effort at all. Here was a guy that could blow thru a double team and make contact in the backfield and was now being pushed 3-4 yards or more down field by a single blocker and all he had to do was shed and make a tackle and he'd just watch them run by. no chase down the line, no nothing. He looked like a slug.

If you read my previous post once again it´s pretty easy to understand I´m agreeing with you.
 

paulska

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I'm no GM, and I don't watch a ton of tape in the way a scout might, but I do see each Packers game, and here's the thing that stands out to me: Raji hasn't consistently made plays since our SB year.

I don't get why people are arguing about bringing Raji back on a modest one year deal. No one is lining up to pay him big dollars are this point. Everyone knows he has talent, but the long silent space in the highlight reel for #90 grows ever longer.

I watched Steelers games, and Brett Keisel and Casey Hampton may not have been game breaking talents, but you saw them make contributions game in and out, and so many of them sprang out of persistence- they weren't going to get home with speed or brilliant technique or sheer talent- they got there on will. Other guys did their jobs, plays took longer to develop, and they closed and finished.

That's the kind of play we need out of a player in the role available to Raji, and it's precisely the kind of play he has failed to deliver.

There's no question that talented guys get second, third and fourth chances in this league above and beyond the chances that hard workers with less ability get, but there's a diminishing return for those chances- they don't make bigger and bigger money. They make less and less with each subsequent once, in general.

Until Raji delivers on his considerable potential consistently, he'll be a modestly paid bubble guy who is easy for teams to cut, including ours. The one advantage he has with us is that he knows our system.

There have been knocks on Raji's heart going back to his college days. This is no surprise- you hope that some of this comes from being young and immature. But this guy is closing on 30. If there isn't obvious and permanent change/improvement, he's done, and that is hard for many to take because so many players with less talent have done so much more than him simply because they played with more heart and determination. While I hope he gets over the hump, it's not likely, and I don't get why anyone's a hater for looking at his track record and acknowledging that something different than recent history is a long shot...
 
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