PFF Grades Through Week 4

Arod2gjdd

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I believe that MM said that he would like to keep Jones' snaps limited so he is more likely to be healthy later in the season. Anyone agree with talk that HHCD interception should have been a penalty?

Lol no. That was an amazing play. He played the ball the entire way, which he has every right to go for as a defender. Take notes Brice. Great instincts and ball skills, not to mention hanging on to the ball after getting rocked, while Benjamin (who has at least 30 pounds on him) took the worst of it.
 

Poppa San

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Definitely don't think it should of been a penalty. But I also don't think it was a great play by any means. It was good that he held onto the ball but I think it was pretty lucky it landed right in his hands. He clearly closed his eyes and went for the player and not the ball just lucked out
Based on this viewpoint, I will no longer accept or believe any analysis or opinion you provide as to this specific player.
Haters just gonna hate.
 
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HardRightEdge

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PFF has actually ranked Clark (90.1, 6th) slightly ahead of Guy (89.9, 7th).
The 4th. rank for Guy that I stated (90.6) was quoted directly from PFF in the link I posted. See the chart in that link. That's for the first quarter of the season.

If PFF has updated grades for last night's game and that's what you are quoting, the discrepancy is explained. If they have not updated for last night, this would be another case of various PFF sources showing varying grades.
 
D

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The 4th. rank for Guy that I stated (90.6) was quoted directly from PFF in the link I posted. See the chart in that link. That's for the first quarter of the season.

If PFF has updated grades for last night's game and that's what you are quoting, the discrepancy is explained. If they have not updated for last night, this would be another case of various PFF sources showing varying grades.

You're right, PFF has already included yesterday's game in the grade I posted above.
 
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HardRightEdge

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You're right, PFF has already included yesterday's game in the grade I posted above.
That explains it.

Interestingly, doing a google search right now on "Lawrence Guy PFF grade" yields the following un-updated 90.6 grade.

https://www.profootballfocus.com/nfl/players/lawrence-guy/6385

Of course this may change by the time one accesses the link at a later time or day.

This illustrates that these "back door" accesses to PFF grades are hitting on a different data set or data base than the one with the most current data. That is odd and indicates a possibility for error in the back door links. One would hope there isn't some intern manually copying the data into a separate data set.
 
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HardRightEdge

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The Clark-Guy example is a reminder of one way PFF grades need to be taken in context.

Clark's defensive snap count (using Football Outsiders) for the first 4 weeks have been, in order, 77%, 75%, 92% and 81% for a season number of 81% on 229 snaps. His snaps increased with the Wilkerson injury. In any case, these snap counts indicate a 3-down player.

Guy's defensive snap count for the first 4 weeks is 51% on 180 snaps. He's not a 3-down player, indicating a specialized role. What would his grade be like if he were forced to play more to his weaknesses?

A PFF grade represents a performance assessment of snaps taken, but there may be a missing element of versatility or "completeness" as a football player in some cases when looking at a grade alone.

To take another example, I could see this utility factor coming into play with edge rushers who are pass rush specialists, rotating in on passing downs, who earn a high pressure-to-snap percentage. How would such players grade in pass rush if they were called upon to play run downs (where teams often pass and often get the ball out quickly) and tweener downs where they would need to react to run or pass instead of just teeing off in the pass rush? That pass rush grade would sink one would think. And if they were plugged in as 3-down player how would they grade against more frequent instances defending the run? Again, not as well.

The problem is not a PFF grading problem. They say what they do--grade every player on every snap. They can't grade a guy standing on the sidelines.
 
D

Deleted member 6794

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The Clark-Guy example is a reminder of one way PFF grades need to be taken in context.

Clark's defensive snap count (using Football Outsiders) for the first 4 weeks have been, in order, 77%, 75%, 92% and 81% for a season number of 81% on 229 snaps. His snaps increased with the Wilkerson injury. In any case, these snap counts indicate a 3-down player.

Guy's defensive snap count for the first 4 weeks is 51% on 180 snaps. He's not a 3-down player, indicating a specialized role. What would his grade be like if he were forced to play more to his weaknesses?

A PFF grade represents a performance assessment of snaps taken, but there may be a missing element of versatility or "completeness" as a football player in some cases when looking at a grade alone.

To take another example, I could see this utility factor coming into play with edge rushers who are pass rush specialists, rotating in on passing downs, who earn a high pressure-to-snap percentage. How would such players grade in pass rush if they were called upon to play run downs (where teams often pass and often get the ball out quickly) and tweener downs where they would need to react to run or pass instead of just teeing off in the pass rush? That pass rush grade would sink one would think. And if they were plugged in as 3-down player how would they grade against more frequent instances defending the run? Again, not as well.

The problem is not a PFF grading problem. They say what they do--grade every player on every snap. They can't grade a guy standing on the sidelines.

One weird thing I have noticed with PFF on several occasions is that the overall grade doesn't add up with the situational ones.

Let's take Guy as an example.

According to them he has had 91 pass rush snaps and 85 defending the run this season. His overall grade is 89.9 but while his run defense (91.3) has been elite he has struggled rushing the passer (61.5). His tackling (75.8) has been slightly above average.
 

PikeBadger

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One weird thing I have noticed with PFF on several occasions is that the overall grade doesn't add up with the situational ones.

Let's take Guy as an example.

According to them he has had 91 pass rush snaps and 85 defending the run this season. His overall grade is 89.9 but while his run defense (91.3) has been elite he has struggled rushing the passer (61.5). His tackling (75.8) has been slightly above average.
I guess Trgovac didn’t do such a great job of developing Guy. I think he was the DL coach at the time the Packers drafted him. Or maybe he was just a very late bloomer for other reasons.
 
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HardRightEdge

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Out of curiosity, what were Facrell's run and pass grades in week 4, if you don't mind?

From the box score and snap count, 3 sacks on 26 defensive snaps, might suggest an "elite" pass rush grade. Some are fancying this to be some kind of breakout.

On the first of those sacks I'd give him a negative grade. He was pancaked, not looking at the QB who at best tripped over his hand. The other 2 were in garbage time under 2:00 minutes, the last against a backup coming in cold.

His one nice run tackle, the QB scramble up the middle for 3 yards, should get a negative pass rush grade. The OT knocked him back two steps into space which afforded him a lane to the QB.

I can't say I noted what he did on the other 22 snaps, good or bad, but certainly nothing impactful.
 
H

HardRightEdge

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One weird thing I have noticed with PFF on several occasions is that the overall grade doesn't add up with the situational ones.

Let's take Guy as an example.

According to them he has had 91 pass rush snaps and 85 defending the run this season. His overall grade is 89.9 but while his run defense (91.3) has been elite he has struggled rushing the passer (61.5). His tackling (75.8) has been slightly above average.
That is odd and begs my earlier question of how their black box algorithms function in applying weights to this or that. That will never be disclosed, of course.
 
H

HardRightEdge

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I guess Trgovac didn’t do such a great job of developing Guy. I think he was the DL coach at the time the Packers drafted him. Or maybe he was just a very late bloomer for other reasons.
Guy is in his 8th. season. Since departing GB in year 2, he bounced from GB to the IND practice squad, then their roster, then cut or traded in mid-season; picked up by SD and cut or traded in mid-season the following year; picked up by BALT where he started to settle in during his fourth year spending 3 seasons with them. Then on to NE last season.

Belichick signed him in 2017 to a 4 year / $15.3 mil contract / $4.9 mil guaranteed, in keeping with a veteran rotational D-Lineman without a lot of dead cap if it didn't work out over time. If memory serves, Guy got a pretty good PFF grade last season but not at this borderline "elite" level.

It would appear to be a gradual progression for Guy, eventually landing in a place that afforded a best fit. It's hard to lay a missed opportunity, if that is the case here, on Trgovac so many years in the rear view mirror. You also have to acknowledge Belichick has a special knack for picking up vets that fit what he wants to do. The other half of "do your job" is finding guys (pun intended) who fit that job.
 
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Out of curiosity, what were Facrell's run and pass grades in week 4, if you don't mind?

PFF graded Fackrell at 76.9 rushing the passer as well as 60.5 defending the run vs. the Bills.

Belichick signed him in 2017 to a 4 year / $15.3 mil contract / $4.9 mil guaranteed, in keeping with a veteran rotational D-Lineman without a lot of dead cap if it didn't work out over time. If memory serves, Guy got a pretty good PFF grade last season but not at this borderline "elite" level.

According to PFF 2016 was Guy's best season sonfar when he earned an overall grade of 73.3.
 

Jerellh528

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PFF graded Fackrell at 76.9 rushing the passer as well as 60.5 defending the run vs. the Bills.

That essentially falls perfectly in line with what Pettine said of fackrell. He essentially said since we had buffalo down in obvious passing situations it was a good time to use fackrell’s pass rushing strengths, but in situations where we need to set the edge on a run play, we’d probably have someone else out there.
 
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That essentially falls perfectly in line with what Pettine said of fackrell. He essentially said since we had buffalo down in obvious passing situations it was a good time to use fackrell’s pass rushing strengths, but in situations where we need to set the edge on a run play, we’d probably have someone else out there.

True, Fackrell is definitely better rushing the passer than defending the run.
 

lambeaulambo

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only one thing....hhcd is being graded highly. He made one game saving tackle and made 2 picks. 1 was totally legit. Pretty good and improvement is noted. However, imho this guy needs to possibly move to outside LB, he is struggling with passing sets when other teams motion. Its as if he isnt grasping flex.
 
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only one thing....hhcd is being graded highly. He made one game saving tackle and made 2 picks. 1 was totally legit. Pretty good and improvement is noted. However, imho this guy needs to possibly move to outside LB, he is struggling with passing sets when other teams motion. Its as if he isnt grasping flex.

There might be an argument to be made that Clinton-Dix shouldn't be lined up as a single high free safety but there's absolutely no way he should be moved to outside linebacker.
 
D

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Completely unrelated but it’s obvious why they kept Whitehead around. He’s actually pretty good at blitzing and tackling. So many DBs run right past the WB when they are unblocked but he’s like a heat seeking missile.
 
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Completely unrelated but it’s obvious why they kept Whitehead around. He’s actually pretty good at blitzing and tackling. So many DBs run right past the WB when they are unblocked but he’s like a heat seeking missile.

Whitehead has truly been a pleasant surprise this season.
 

Mondio

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There might be an argument to be made that Clinton-Dix shouldn't be lined up as a single high free safety but there's absolutely no way he should be moved to outside linebacker.
He may have going with a “it’s so crazy it just might work”? But I’m not sure that idea would even count as crazy.
 

lambeaulambo

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There might be an argument to be made that Clinton-Dix shouldn't be lined up as a single high free safety but there's absolutely no way he should be moved to outside linebacker.

well...he is too slow to play safety and lacks the ability to read...gain 15-20 and he is a bonafide olb.
 
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