Pass Rush in 2017

[GreenBaySlacker]

Making jokes-cute. Trying to insult my football knowledge when I played the game is laughable, but whatever. The reality is the NFCCG. We were a beat up team that fought tooth and nail to get there, yes. But that game also highlighted weaknesses on defense beyond the fact that the secondary with Hyde was slow, especially with Randall and Q being hurt. Our ILBs cannot cover agile RBs/TEs which is why Morgan is being put in the box now on passing downs late, and even with Julius and Datone we were having trouble getting 3 and outs because the pass rush simply wasn't getting home quick enough and often enough. The Falcons pass rush did, which is why they should be the SB Champs now except for a classic meltdown. While acquiring speed in the secondary with this draft is good, this draft class was loaded with EDGE rushers and we didn't get one of the best-we got a middling piece in the Wisconsin kid. We needed at least 2 Takkarist McKinley/Taco Charlton/Jordan Willis/Tyus Bowser/Daeshon Hall/Carl Lawson/Carroll Phillips/Dawuane Smoot type EDGE rushers, and we didn't get one. We didn't even get the OLB from Eastern Washington, or the ILB from KSU that has some speed to at least cover and replace Joe Thomas eventually in dime, smh... If Vince Biegel ends up the second coming of top-level young Clay Matthews then I will be very happy and eat my words. I don't see that happening, and if other teams did, he prolly would have been drafted earlier. Adams the DT from Auburn is not a lock to see a bunch of playing time this year IMO, unless a bunch of things like injury, Guion being cut before the end of training camp, and him just flat out being a wunderkind out of the gate happen. So to me, we did not address pass rush enough for there not to be MAJOR concerns about it coming into the new season.

Honestly. I see a change of scheme at work here. Some are going to have to rewrite their definition of a 3-4...
The way I see it, in recent years we play a 2-4-5. we traded a 3-4 de for peppers/datone elephant olb. Moved a safety up to play lb since elephant was Basicly a lineman. Then replaced the safety with a tweener dback... essentially it became a very under sized 3-4 that depended on the dbacks to make tackles all too often.

Now I see a dline group capable of putting 3 very good dlineman on the field at once, plus rotation to keep them fresh and effective. More conventional olbs to rush and cover. And a diverse group of CBs who can be physical and man up. Our two pro bowl caliber safety's will clean up. Or I should say, be allowed to clean up, rather than being misused in coverage as a nickle/dime guy.
This is what I wanted since before I can remember. Our defense able to dictate that the offense can't put out 5 targets, and force them to protect the qb..

Picture this. It's my 5-2. It all starts with the nose. Nt must be dominant enough to literally force the double team every play. The type of guy who simply beats the other guy 1 on 1 so badly, that they dedicate the center to double him. +1 man advantage.

Now if you can add two very good DT type bodies on either side of the nose. Guys like Daniels, Guion, Clark, Francois, or the rookie Adams, lowry, or Ringo maybe. These guys will beat their guys 1 on 1 sometimes. That's what we need...
So there is 4 olinemen dedicated to stopping 3 dlineman, and we are getting a push on the 1 on 1s with Daniels/Guion/Clark, and hopefully Francois and the others...

Now the lbs swarm. Perry coming at the last tackle is another win for us, because 1 on 1, Perry will win some times, and finish as well. Perry is here to collect sacks, and he will.
The other 3 lbs can hit the holes. The way I see it. They need to play a zone where the lb without a blocker in front of him rushes. They keep a te in to block, you blitz Ryan or Martinez up the middle. They keep a rb back to block, you bring Mathews around the edge with a head of steam....

That's 5 rushers, all with the ability to win the 1 on 1. That will collapse the pocket. Even with all their blockers in...

Then you have two solid CBs who can man up on their #1 and #2 wrs. And two great safety who see the field, and keep everything in front of them. The lbs other than Perry, need to have good coverage skills. Ryan and Mathews both are very good cover lbs imo.

If a team plays a formation where we would need a nickle or even dime back. First of all, you take out a ilb (not a dlineman) The front five would destroy the qb. No team will allow their qb to get buried consistently..... So you play tough in the secondary. Play tight. Have lbs who hold their own in coverage. Have safeties who can do it all. Maybe they get a few on us. but make sure their they pay for them with lumps on their qb...smash him.

It takes a certain personal to play the 5-2. (3-4)... we didn't have it last year. After the moves Thompson made this off season. I think we could do it. Make the offense play our game.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

I can't believe the amount of salt I got on my initial post to this forum. Wow...

Welcome to the forums....put on your big boy shorts and be prepared to see all sides of everything. As an olive branch, your second post was much better than your first. TBH.....your first post came off as an angry, whiny fan who was ready to declare the Packers the 2nd coming of the Cleveland Browns. Whereas your 2nd post (in this thread) articulated your position from a much less negative point of view.

 

[brandon2348]

I understand wanting one of the better pass rushing LB's as I wanted Charles Harris who went in front of us to the Dolphins. I wasn't sold on McKinley anways.

They obviously saw King and Jones as better value and safer picks and I tend to agree to what was available on board. I really dont believe Watt was gonna come in and set the world on fire. In fact, I like Biegel better. Every other pass rusher after that had some question marks by his name.

They decided to go Adams and I like the pick. 300 pounders that can push the pocket don't grow on trees either so it's a good gamble IMO.

If people wanna get pissed about something don't get pissed off about the draft as Thompson did a pretty good job getting lots of value here. If you must get pissed then be upset that we weren't more aggressive in brining in Connor Barwin because unless Thompson traded up I just don't see a pass rusher that was available that checks all the boxes.

 

[RRyder]

This is the draft to do it.

1) What "people" are you talking about bud? I just joined the forum

2) Which positional group coming into the draft was more stocked/had a better chance of performing at a high level without being heavily addressed-LB or secondary? Keep in mind, you admitted getting Josh Jones at 61 was a luxury pick

3) Yes-pass rush does come from other positions in a defense besides OLB. And in a traditional 3-4, DE is one of the main places you want to get your pass rushing from. But in case you didn't notice, we're not running a "typical" 34, bud. Dom Capers, one of the fathers of the 3-4 zone blitz scheme, is our defensive daddy. To combat our shortcomings in personnel over the years (Raji being hurt/retiring, Clay being up and down, etc) and accentuate what we have emphasized from a front office acquisition standpoint (i.e. Ted bringing in quality DBs if nothing else) he has morphed the 3-4 into a 2-4-5, with the DL having to adopt a two-gap approach often. Additionally, look at Adams game film. Add that all together, and you'd see that our 3rd rounder isn't necessarily supposed to be a "traditional 3-4 defensive end" that will get a gang of sacks, like a J.J. Watt, sport.

A measured response that I can appreciate so I'll respond to each point individually

1: It hasn't been just you. Apologies if you felt I was signaling you out.

(If your talking about who are all these people are that viewed CB as the highest priority need on this team I'd say about 90%-95% of this board)

2: For this team easily CB. Both positions were stocked to the teeth in this draft and with our uncertainty at CB and the talent rich nature for the position in this draft CB has the highest chance of a day one impact.

I view Jones as more of a luxury pick because unlike others I personally don't seem him filling the hybrid role and view him more a true Saftey that can potentially take over for Burnett. If he has better CB skills and other people are correct and he can slide down and cover the slot my opinion will change. Personally I would've preferred Williams here but I also don't think a rant should be warranted for going in a different direction on a single draft pick.

3: You're correct about the scheme. However as you've pointed out alot of that has been personnel related and this is adding more talent to the line that plays in a penetraiting style. And I never argued he'd be JJ Watt. Only that his style of play is one of penetraition which works in favor of the "need pass rush" mentality.



On an added note we did also add a OLB who wasn't that far off from the OLB many wanted in round one so it's not like there was no talent added anyway you slice it. It's just seems your viewing OLB/Pass rush as the end all, be all, necessity over CB pre draft when that just wasn't the case in a draft loaded at both positions

 

[rodell330]

The pass rush was Terrible last year. Clay was just a guy out there. If we can get rookie Clay? or 2nd year Clay? that alone will boost the pass rush!! If Perry can find a way to play a full season (which I doubt) and we can get 10 plus sacks from him? And Cm3 earns his 16 million and gets another 10 plus? Sprinkle in another 4 from fackrell, Lowry and maybe Elliot a piece that would exceed my expectations.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

The pass rush was Terrible last year. Clay was just a guy out there. If we can get rookie Clay? or 2nd year Clay? that alone will boost the pass rush!! If Perry can find a way to play a full season (which I doubt) and we can get 10 plus sacks from him? And Cm3 earns his 16 million and gets another 10 plus? Sprinkle in another 4 from fackrell, Lowry and maybe Elliot a piece that would exceed my expectations.

Have you been reading TT's diary?

 

[rodell330]

Have you been reading TT's diary?

His diary mentioned his plan to draft more DE's to convert to olbs..but how he was coaxed out of doing so by reading the comments in here.

 

[brandon2348]

While an elite pass rush would be great I think what needs to be remembered here is we really only need a middle tier defense to accomplish the ultimate goal. I think with Francois and House along with this draft TT stocked the shelves with 4 really good defensive players. If they would of added Barwin it would be looking phenomenal right now. Regardless, Capers needs to make this S*** work as he has gotten an injection of new talent.

I'm sure injuries will play into all this but I think right now we're looking pretty good.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

If they would of added Barwin it would be looking phenomenal right now.

I wanted Barwin as well, I guess we have to accept Biegel is our Barwin. Both would have been nice too. Had TT signed Barwin though, I think that the Biegel Pick may have landed Perine and the Packers would have been able to use the other 3 picks on other positions. The power of free agency on immediate needs. But who knows, in one year, we all might be here saying "Thank god we didn't sign Barwin, he was a complete bust and can you believe this Biegel guy, he is a stud!"

 

[brandon2348]

I wanted Barwin as well, I guess we have to accept Biegel is our Barwin. Both would have been nice too. Had TT signed Barwin though, I think that the Biegel Pick may have landed Perine and the Packers would have been able to use the other 3 picks on other positions. The power of free agency on immediate needs. But who knows, in one year, we all might be here saying "Thank god we didn't sign Barwin, he was a complete bust and can you believe this Biegel guy, he is a stud!"

Nothing against Perine but I believe Jamaal Williams is gonna be a pleasant surprise to a lot of people. Some had him as a top 10 RB and I think he pushes Monty for starting role and at the very least touches.

Watch out for Jamaal Williams. My second favorite pick in the draft behind Jones.

 

[Ogsponge]

I can't believe the amount of salt I got on my initial post to this forum. Wow...

We have a group of posters who will jump all over you if you criticize TT in a reasonable fashion, going on a tirade with your first ever post about one of the most successful gm's in the NFL is a sure fire way to get the treatment you did. And for the record, it is not necessarily that some of your points were wrong, it was simply the presentation.

 

[Half Empty]

I can't believe the amount of salt I got on my initial post to this forum. Wow...

And yet you say you've been lurking for years? What did you expect?

 

[GreenBaySlacker]

While an elite pass rush would be great I think what needs to be remembered here is we really only need a middle tier defense to accomplish the ultimate goal. I think with Francois and House along with this draft TT stocked the shelves with 4 really good defensive players. If they would of added Barwin it would be looking phenomenal right now. Regardless, Capers needs to make this S*** work as he has gotten an injection of new talent.

I'm sure injuries will play into all this but I think right now we're looking pretty good.

I would rather have gotten dontari Poe... 8mil worth of dominant nose tackle....

 

[Dantés]

@pizzle your little disagree spree is cute and all, but it's coming off as just another tantrum.

 

[swhitset]

Hey Pizzle ... you do realize that blindly checking disagree on every post you see isn't helping your credibility right? Especially when you do it on posts that don't state an opinion lol.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

@pizzle your little disagree spree is cute and all, but it's coming off as just another tantrum.

Hey Pizzle ... you do realize that blindly checking disagree on every post you see isn't helping your credibility right? Especially when you do it on posts that don't state an opinion lol.

He "pizzled" on my olive branch even! It's been rescinded. Game on!

 

[Sky King]

Perhaps it's just a matter of improving his hand-eye-mouse coordination.

 

[Dantés]

He "pizzled" on my olive branch even! It's been rescinded. Game on!

Once the kicking and screaming starts, it's so easy for innocent bystanders to catch an errant little fist or foot on accident.

 

[pizzle]

A measured response that I can appreciate so I'll respond to each point individually

1: It hasn't been just you. Apologies if you felt I was signaling you out.

(If your talking about who are all these people are that viewed CB as the highest priority need on this team I'd say about 90%-95% of this board)

2: For this team easily CB. Both positions were stocked to the teeth in this draft and with our uncertainty at CB and the talent rich nature for the position in this draft CB has the highest chance of a day one impact.

I view Jones as more of a luxury pick because unlike others I personally don't seem him filling the hybrid role and view him more a true Saftey that can potentially take over for Burnett. If he has better CB skills and other people are correct and he can slide down and cover the slot my opinion will change. Personally I would've preferred Williams here but I also don't think a rant should be warranted for going in a different direction on a single draft pick.

3: You're correct about the scheme. However as you've pointed out alot of that has been personnel related and this is adding more talent to the line that plays in a penetraiting style. And I never argued he'd be JJ Watt. Only that his style of play is one of penetraition which works in favor of the "need pass rush" mentality.



On an added note we did also add a OLB who wasn't that far off from the OLB many wanted in round one so it's not like there was no talent added anyway you slice it. It's just seems your viewing OLB/Pass rush as the end all, be all, necessity over CB pre draft when that just wasn't the case in a draft loaded at both positions

Even though it appears we have differing opinions on the situation, I appreciated that you responded to me with respect. The only thing I would point out is that in point 2, I meant positional group that the Pack have on D, not the groups in the draft. I was trying to elude to the fact that our LB core is depleted something serious with a bunch of question marks (Clay's health/productivity as an OLB instead of an ILB, Nick being "nicked up" often and gaining a ton of "clean-up" sacks instead of a bunch of them due to him just whipping the guy he was lined up against, Jayrone's health, Fackrell being weak at the point of the attack {remember when he got rag-dolled by that LT and it made national sports TV?}, etc) while our secondary has at the very least more talented/capable bodies with less question marks (Randall and Rollins have a good chance of having comeback years, House might ball out since he's back with Whitt, our safeties are pretty good overall as a unit, etc)

We're Packers fans, so as long as you're not trolling, I'm good with agreeing to disagree at times. Salute, poster.

 

[pizzle]

Welcome to the forums....put on your big boy shorts and be prepared to see all sides of everything. As an olive branch, your second post was much better than your first. TBH.....your first post came off as an angry, whiny fan who was ready to declare the Packers the 2nd coming of the Cleveland Browns. Whereas your 2nd post (in this thread) articulated your position from a much less negative point of view.

Your condescending tone isn't my cup of tea-especially since I just entered the forum officially. The big boy shorts comment along with you trying to thrash my initial post don't help, but I guess I'll take your "olive branch" as a positive thing. It's not that serious, but whatever. Not trying to e-beef with posters in here, just wanted to share my thoughts. We don't have to be adversaries, mate...

 

[thisisnate]

Who wants my thread? Anybody? I'd like to disown it if possible.

 

[AmishMafia]

I tend to agree here. Even though I wanted them to get Mixon I'm pretty happy with how it turned out. I think TT went a little RB crazy if anything but we're we really gonna get an edge rusher that late that was even gonna make the team?

I'm not so sure.

By drafting 3 rbs late shows TT saw RB as a need. Although there are many examples of great backs found late in the draft, there are plenty of good backs taken early. I would have prefered RB earlier but cant complain with the necessity of the players we did get. TT took the scatter gun approach. Should get at least one good player of the 3 RBs we took.

 

[AmishMafia]

Making jokes-cute. Trying to insult my football knowledge when I played the game is laughable, but whatever.

Welcome to the forum.

What level did you play and for what team?

There are plenty here who delight in their blind hatred of TT, you should find lots of people who share your views. They tend to at least try and discuss things in a level headed manner.

 

[brandon2348]

By drafting 3 rbs late shows TT saw RB as a need. Although there are many examples of great backs found late in the draft, there are plenty of good backs taken early. I would have prefered RB earlier but cant complain with the necessity of the players we did get. TT took the scatter gun approach. Should get at least one good player of the 3 RBs we took.

I'd rather have Mixon then King so no dispute from me on this and everyone and there brother had RB as a need.

I believe Jamaal Williams was a late round answer to the need so I'm content with the situation. I could nit pick taking the other two but I do like the competition that it breeds drafting 3 after letting it all set in for me a little.

 

[pizzle]

Welcome to the forum.

What level did you play and for what team?

There are plenty here who delight in their blind hatred of TT, you should find lots of people who share your views. They tend to at least try and discuss things in a level headed manner.

I lettered in high school. Played with a bunch of D-1/NFL players in the Midwest and in the South since I moved as a teenager. As a senior was clocked at 4.46. I was good, but not tryna front like I was all-world. But I stand by my football IQ. I've always had it and use it now in other arenas in life, without going into any more detail.

And I don't blindly hate TT. I'm just ready for the younger Wolf to take over as GM. I believe that TT is holding back the team from being what the Patriots have been/are. Able to reload and make the Conference Championship Game every year, instead of just being perennial division champs and not having enough gas to speed through the playoffs. It shows in our lack of ability to get a consistent pass rush over the years, which is why IMO Aaron only has 1 SB ring-and why he made the "all-in" comments after our demise in ATL. The players know more than anyone what is really going on, and reading between the lines it's clear they think TT is a tightwad who is not giving them enough help in good players to compete.