Packers vs Giants Game Thread: Monday Night Raw Football Edition

[OldSchool101]

Again, I see your point and agree that Carlson needs to improve, but that goes for most of the players and coaches as well. I can't remember who, but someone pointed to Carlson's miss as the reason we lost the Giants game. No, we lost because it was a terrible effort by most of the team, as well as the coaching staff. Erase a lot of the individual mistakes and Carlson's missed FG doesn't matter.

Yeah, Or it’s not a miss to begin with.
It’s a 31 yarder and near automatic 3pts. 16-21
The next possession would’ve been 19-21 with time and a perfect setup for making our Kicker a “hero” ball.
Our following TD would’ve been
25-21 and quite possibly a W
and nobody would be talking about Carlson, we’d be back to talking about 11-6 and a #3 seed

I know it’s hard to be patient staring at 5 minutes left. We kept our foot on the gas which is commendable also. It’s tough with 5:30 left. Had we had 7:00 left it’s an easy decision to take the FG

 

[chemist]

Again, I see your point and agree that Carlson needs to improve, but that goes for most of the players and coaches as well. I can't remember who, but someone pointed to Carlson's miss as the reason we lost the Giants game. No, we lost because it was a terrible effort by most of the team, as well as the coaching staff. Erase a lot of the individual mistakes and Carlson's missed FG doesn't matter.

Again, I see your point and agree that Carlson needs to improve, but that goes for most of the players and coaches as well. I can't remember who, but someone pointed to Carlson's miss as the reason we lost the Giants game. No, we lost because it was a terrible effort by most of the team, as well as the coaching staff. Erase a lot of the individual mistakes and Carlson's missed FG doesn't matter.

No argument here. And To be clear I was not saying Carlson was to blame for that loss.
It just seemed to me that right from the outset the whole team was "off" a little. Just from that first series where love missed open receivers I had this feeling It was going to be one of those long nights.
As for Carlson And what I said about improving I was looking ahead to the remaing games on the schedule and how we need everyone to up their game if we want in to the playoffs.

 

[Voyageur]

When you boil it all down, the onus of what happened falls on LeFleur. If he called a pass play, and told Love that he shouldn't throw it away, it was a horrible call. What he should have called would have been a run play, because the clock would have kept running, and it would very likely have made the kick from even a shorter distance, than it would have been, before the sack. That means LeFleur better take a darned good look in the mirror, when he's criticizing Barry, because he actually set Barry and the defense up to fail, because he could have gotten the 3 points, and forced the Giants to use that essential time out.

It's like I've repeatedly said. LeFleur is not a good coach in the closing minutes of a game, and his sense of the game when it comes to clock management, and play calling isn't even close to being decent. Even during the course of a game, if he finds someone who made a great play on offense, he runs the entire offense through them. Opponents know that, and gauge their defenses to take advantage of that problem we have.

Quite honestly, he either needs to change, or quit running the offense. He should probably step aside, and let someone else, less predictable, run the play selection. That makes me question if he's telling Barry which defense he wants in the closing minutes of games?

 

[OldSchool101]

When you boil it all down, the onus of what happened falls on LeFleur. If he called a pass play, and told Love that he shouldn't throw it away, it was a horrible call. What he should have called would have been a run play, because the clock would have kept running, and it would very likely have made the kick from even a shorter distance, than it would have been, before the sack. That means LeFleur better take a darned good look in the mirror, when he's criticizing Barry, because he actually set Barry and the defense up to fail, because he could have gotten the 3 points, and forced the Giants to use that essential time out.

It's like I've repeatedly said. LeFleur is not a good coach in the closing minutes of a game, and his sense of the game when it comes to clock management, and play calling isn't even close to being decent. Even during the course of a game, if he finds someone who made a great play on offense, he runs the entire offense through them. Opponents know that, and gauge their defenses to take advantage of that problem we have.

Quite honestly, he either needs to change, or quit running the offense. He should probably step aside, and let someone else, less predictable, run the play selection. That makes me question if he's telling Barry which defense he wants in the closing minutes of games?

True. Let me be clear overall I think Matt is a good to great O Coach. Although I think he’s shown one weakness that would’ve made him Great level is clock and field position risk. I don’t know if they’ve got someone that handles that for him? but I’m guessing not or they aren’t very good at it. There’s an art to that stuff and he is still relatively a newer HC. He gets a C+ for me at understanding risk management. That said I’m comparing him to seasoned HC’s and there’s definitely other Coaches I’ve seen who are better at using all the tools at their disposal to close it out. All Coaches have strengths and weaknesses I’m not picking in Matt you take the great parts with the average parts.

Again everything is embellished in close games. Like Barry said these games are often just a few plays from Wins or Losses. Every miniscule advantage you can gain is important. We’ve all seen Coaches who use every last strategic measure to Win. Mike Tomlin, Belichick, Andy Reid, Kyle Shanahan are Masters of it. Experience goes a long ways for that

 

[chemist]

When you boil it all down, the onus of what happened falls on LeFleur. If he called a pass play, and told Love that he shouldn't throw it away, it was a horrible call. What he should have called would have been a run play, because the clock would have kept running, and it would very likely have made the kick from even a shorter distance, than it would have been, before the sack. That means LeFleur better take a darned good look in the mirror, when he's criticizing Barry, because he actually set Barry and the defense up to fail, because he could have gotten the 3 points, and forced the Giants to use that essential time out.

It's like I've repeatedly said. LeFleur is not a good coach in the closing minutes of a game, and his sense of the game when it comes to clock management, and play calling isn't even close to being decent. Even during the course of a game, if he finds someone who made a great play on offense, he runs the entire offense through them. Opponents know that, and gauge their defenses to take advantage of that problem we have.

Quite honestly, he either needs to change, or quit running the offense. He should probably step aside, and let someone else, less predictable, run the play selection. That makes me question if he's telling Barry which defense he wants in the closing minutes of games?

A Well thought out and well represented summary. As I was reading your message i started thinking that yes I kind of felt that way many times. To aggresive with play calls, especially at the end of a game where you might have the last drive to win. Just take things in small chunks, that the Def always gives you and make your way down the field.
I remember last year's lions game where the packers needed to win and I don't remember the exact set up but they had 3rd down play they needed to get to keep a drive alive and Rodgers ends up throwing a deep sideline pass that was incomplete. I said to myself That's not the kind of play you should be running on 3rd down. We dont need all those yards in one shot.
So Maybe you have described where the packers are lacking the most.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Quite honestly, he either needs to change, or quit running the offense. He should probably step aside, and let someone else, less predictable, run the play selection. That makes me question if he's telling Barry which defense he wants in the closing minutes of games?

I've always preferred a HC, OC and DC, with 3 people wearing 3 separate hats on game day. Yes, Matt has a solid offensive mind, but when it comes to crunch time, I prefer the HC managing the game and not the individual plays. Let him be in on the conversations, but an OC calling the plays, can focus when the team is on defense, as to what he should do the next time with the ball. Meanwhile, the HC can chime in, but also keep an eye on the clock, maybe converse with the DC or Special teams coach, a player, etc.

Adam Stenavich is listed as the Packers "OC". I think he was a really solid OL coach, but haven't heard anything about the way he contributes as the OC. Maybe **** needs to consider purging both him and Barry and hiring an OC that can call the plays and a DC that can do better with the talent that the Packers have on defense.

 

[milani]

Pathetic half of football all the way around -- now, can the kicker choke to cap it?

Yes.

 

[Magooch]

I’ve said before that I don’t think LaFleur is a bad coach. But he often does seem to get out-coached, too. And I get the sense that he does his best coaching from ahead…. Put him in situations where we’re behind and needing “coached out” of it and he often struggles.

If we are able to get out to an early lead I think he usually does pretty well at holding onto that winning position, but if we’re trailing early he seems to often lose the plot a little bit and seems to coach “panicky” in those situations.

Unfortunately in the same way I feel like Barry’s “bend but don’t break” (or maybe it’s “bend but just take a long time to break”) defense is also one that really has to play from ahead to stand a chance. A defense that seems to be predicated on being okay with allowing the opponent long drives on offense in an attempt to minimize points per possession or whatever doesn’t really work if you’re trying to play catch up on offense. Holding the opponent to a field goal is fine and dandy but allowing the opponent drives that keep your offense off the field for 7, 8, 9 minutes doesn’t really give you a great shot at reclaiming a lead that often.

Of course that’s not to say that neither one can ever overturn a deficit but it definitely feels like they’re both significantly worse when being asked to go out and win a game that we’re currently losing.

 

[gopkrs]

I’ve said before that I don’t think LaFleur is a bad coach. But he often does seem to get out-coached, too. And I get the sense that he does his best coaching from ahead…. Put him in situations where we’re behind and needing “coached out” of it and he often struggles.

If we are able to get out to an early lead I think he usually does pretty well at holding onto that winning position, but if we’re trailing early he seems to often lose the plot a little bit and seems to coach “panicky” in those situations.

Unfortunately in the same way I feel like Barry’s “bend but don’t break” (or maybe it’s “bend but just take a long time to break”) defense is also one that really has to play from ahead to stand a chance. A defense that seems to be predicated on being okay with allowing the opponent long drives on offense in an attempt to minimize points per possession or whatever doesn’t really work if you’re trying to play catch up on offense. Holding the opponent to a field goal is fine and dandy but allowing the opponent drives that keep your offense off the field for 7, 8, 9 minutes doesn’t really give you a great shot at reclaiming a lead that often.

Of course that’s not to say that neither one can ever overturn a deficit but it definitely feels like they’re both significantly worse when being asked to go out and win a game that we’re currently losing.

Certainly agree with what you said about the defense.

 

[milani]

I’ve said before that I don’t think LaFleur is a bad coach. But he often does seem to get out-coached, too. And I get the sense that he does his best coaching from ahead…. Put him in situations where we’re behind and needing “coached out” of it and he often struggles.

If we are able to get out to an early lead I think he usually does pretty well at holding onto that winning position, but if we’re trailing early he seems to often lose the plot a little bit and seems to coach “panicky” in those situations.

Unfortunately in the same way I feel like Barry’s “bend but don’t break” (or maybe it’s “bend but just take a long time to break”) defense is also one that really has to play from ahead to stand a chance. A defense that seems to be predicated on being okay with allowing the opponent long drives on offense in an attempt to minimize points per possession or whatever doesn’t really work if you’re trying to play catch up on offense. Holding the opponent to a field goal is fine and dandy but allowing the opponent drives that keep your offense off the field for 7, 8, 9 minutes doesn’t really give you a great shot at reclaiming a lead that often.

Of course that’s not to say that neither one can ever overturn a deficit but it definitely feels like they’re both significantly worse when being asked to go out and win a game that we’re currently losing.

And in 3 of his Rodgers years he was typically ahead or tied in games.

 

[chemist]

And in 3 of his Rodgers years he was typica

 

[chemist]

I've beat up on Carlson quite a bit this year but I do have to give him this. His FG% in the NFL is several points higher than than what he had in college. I'm guessing that's partly because the packers have been able to get the ball to the opponents 22 yd line or less many more times than Auburn did during his career. Apparently that's where his wheelhouse lies.
Its all about team work. You do your job and get me in the right area and I'll take it from there and bring it home.
We know packers offense can put up 20-25 points a game. Enough to win most games. If our D can show up with a half decent game .....
Offense, Defense, Special teams, Coaching. If everyone does their job we have a good chance.

 

[OldSchool101]

A Well thought out and well represented summary. As I was reading your message i started thinking that yes I kind of felt that way many times. To aggresive with play calls, especially at the end of a game where you might have the last drive to win. Just take things in small chunks, that the Def always gives you and make your way down the field.
I remember last year's lions game where the packers needed to win and I don't remember the exact set up but they had 3rd down play they needed to get to keep a drive alive and Rodgers ends up throwing a deep sideline pass that was incomplete. I said to myself That's not the kind of play you should be running on 3rd down. We dont need all those yards in one shot.
So Maybe you have described where the packers are lacking the most.

That was another area I was talking about. 3rd n 5 from the opponents 35-45 yard line. When Rodgers was here we would routinely throw it 30+ yards with about a 20% success rate. Just go for 5 yards and move the chains. Often if you achieve
A simple 6-8 yard pickup and you are suddenly in FG range with a 1st down.