Packers talent - PFF final grades

[Poppa San]

I'm not sure what your point is, unless it's that Bethune-Cookman isn't a motherlode of NFL talent. I readily agree with you if that's your point.

I went looking to see what other NFL players came out of B-C and since I had the link I thought I'd post it.

 

[Dantés]

I went looking to see what other NFL players came out of B-C and since I had the link I thought I'd post it.

Sounds good to me.

 

[PikeBadger]

I think you extremely overvalue the talent level of the Packers defense.

Shields and Matthews at their all time best were very good. That means one of the other DB's are our #2 corner and probably fare much better than being our #1. Matthews at his best was sheer mayhem for opposing teams. Perry, Peppers and Daniels at their present level of play could not have been double teamed. All 5 of these guys playing well makes the other 6 better in their support roles as well imo. We'd have been very tough to beat every week.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Shields and Matthews at their all time best were very good. That means one of the other DB's are our #2 corner and probably fare much better than being our #1. Matthews at his best was sheer mayhem for opposing teams. Perry, Peppers and Daniels at their present level of play could not have been double teamed. All 5 of these guys playing well makes the other 6 better in their support roles as well imo. We'd have been very tough to beat every week.

There's no doubt the Packers defense would have been significantly better with Matthews and Shields at their all time best but I highly doubt they would have been an elite unit.

 

[PikeBadger]

We still would have had Rollins Randall and Gunter covering wrs so I find it hard to see a juggernaut there

They'd have been playing different roles with a much better pass rush. We had big problems when our front seven didn't generate consistent pressure. Without looking I'd guess we gave up less than 20 points in about a half a dozen games. We did have some successful defensive games.

 

[Dantés]

They'd have been playing different roles with a much better pass rush. We had big problems when our front seven didn't generate consistent pressure. Without looking I'd guess we gave up less than 20 points in about a half a dozen games. We did have some successful defensive games.

6 is the number. Here they are. In parentheses are their season averages.

14 in a loss @ the Vikings (20.4)
16 in a win Vs. the Giants (19.4)
10 in a win Vs. the Bears (17.4)
13 in a win @ the Eagles (22.9)
13 in a win Vs. the Texans (17.4)
10 in a win Vs. the Seahawks (22.1)

However, you have to balance that with the reality that they gave up 30 or more on 5 occasions.

30 in a loss Vs. the Cowboys (26.3)
33 in a loss @ the Falcons (33.8)
31 in a loss Vs. the Colts (25.7)
47 in a loss @ the Titans (23.8)
42 in a loss @ the Redkins (24.8)

Not surprisingly, those were the 5 best scoring offenses that the Packers played during the regular season. The bottom six were six of the seven worst scoring offense that the Packers player (Detroit is the other one). One NFL season doesn't provide a very large data set, but these numbers would seem to indicate that the Packers' defense is capable of bullying a lousy defense, but will turn around and get shredded by a good one. There isn't much in between.

The problem is that, most of the time, the offenses you run into in the playoffs are the good ones. The Packers avoided that in the WC round with the Giants, who they bullied to the tune of 13 points. But they surrended 31 to Dallas in a win, and 44 to Atlanta in a loss.

This is all pointing to what we already know-- they have to get better if they're going to get past these elite offenses in the NFC and get to the Super Bowl.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

I'm not sure what your point is, unless it's that Bethune-Cookman isn't a motherlode of NFL talent. I readily agree with you if that's your point.

But the one time that TT actually did draft out of that school, the pick was a home run. So I find it a little odd that that is the school that our friend Ted Thompson's Mind likes to reference in mocking Thompson. He's only done it once, and in that one case it was a great move. You'd think he would at least pick a school that led to a bust.

More like Michigan State?

Jerel Worthy, Will Whitticker and of course....pre TT....possibly the biggest draft flop in Packer History...Tony Mandarich

 

[PikeBadger]

More like Michigan State?

Jerel Worthy, Will Whitticker and of course....pre TT....possibly the biggest draft flop in Packer History...Tony Mandarich

Ray Shankowitz too

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Think you have to go back to 1961 to find the last Michigan State Player that had any kind of success in Green Bay, Herb Adderley.

 

[PackAttack12]

I'm going to have to disagree. IF Clay were at his probowl level and in a 12-15 sack range with pretty consistent pressure and Shields was on the field as himself, this defense would look worlds different than it did last year. I would put them in the great category.

If those two factors are the difference between great and what we saw from them this year, then that just goes to buffer the argument that this team lacks the depth necessary to overcome injuries and players in decline.

Two players shouldn't have been cause for the defense to have THAT big of a drop off.

 

[Mondio]

If those two factors are the difference between great and what we saw from them this year, then that just goes to buffer the argument that this team lacks the depth necessary to overcome injuries and players in decline.

Two players shouldn't have been cause for the defense to have THAT big of a drop off.

It wasn't just 2 players. It was those 2 and the cascade that happened after that. Then Perry broke his hand, Peppers got old, and we found ourselves playing with 3 safeties because we didn't have a DB that could play 2 weeks in a row outside of your #4 guy in Gunter. Lots happened last year, but if Clay was clay and Shields was available, all that stuff is a lot more tolerable and it can be hidden, but instead they were magnified. 2 guys can make a huge difference when all things are considered.

 

[PackerDNA]

It wasn't just 2 players. It was those 2 and the cascade that happened after that. Then Perry broke his hand, Peppers got old, and we found ourselves playing with 3 safeties because we didn't have a DB that could play 2 weeks in a row outside of your #4 guy in Gunter. Lots happened last year, but if Clay was clay and Shields was available, all that stuff is a lot more tolerable and it can be hidden, but instead they were magnified. 2 guys can make a huge difference when all things are considered.

And if my aunt had a you know what, she'd be my uncle. This is not a very good defense, healthy or not.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

It wasn't just 2 players. It was those 2 and the cascade that happened after that. Then Perry broke his hand, Peppers got old, and we found ourselves playing with 3 safeties because we didn't have a DB that could play 2 weeks in a row outside of your #4 guy in Gunter. Lots happened last year, but if Clay was clay and Shields was available, all that stuff is a lot more tolerable and it can be hidden, but instead they were magnified. 2 guys can make a huge difference when all things are considered.

Much like the opposite side of the ball, remove AR and how good is the offense? In 2015, remove Jordy from our WR group and what happened?

Our defense will be much better in 2017 with a #1 CB, I don't see any of the current players being that guy, nor do I expect it immediately from a #29 pick or later in the draft. So TT better at least find one quality FA in the way of a CB. While at OLB, I would prefer finding a FA to fill that need, I think a #29 pick has a better shot at making an immediate impact at OLB than at CB.

While it would be awesome to have 11 Pro Bowl players on each side of the ball, that isn't ever going to happen logistically or financially. Players like Shields and Matthews (top of his game) can make up for the deficiencies of others. Last year, neither of them did.

 

[Mondio]

And if my aunt had a you know what, she'd be my uncle. This is not a very good defense, healthy or not.

last year they were not, you're right. The year before, they were the only thing keeping us in games for much of the year with the exact same players outside of Hayward and Shields for a good chunk of the year.

I don't see Matthews ever being what he was and Shields is done, and he's a guy you don't just replace. So getting the defense up to speed will need work.

But just like our offense rebounded with the same players and some added health, I don't think expecting more from even the players we have on defense is really out of the question either since pretty much the exact same unit was performing better not that long ago.

But we do have pieces that need to be addressed. I'm not nearly concerned about our Db's as I am our pass rush.

 

[PackerDNA]

last year they were not, you're right. The year before, they were the only thing keeping us in games for much of the year with the exact same players outside of Hayward and Shields for a good chunk of the year.

I don't see Matthews ever being what he was and Shields is done, and he's a guy you don't just replace. So getting the defense up to speed will need work.

But just like our offense rebounded with the same players and some added health, I don't think expecting more from even the players we have on defense is really out of the question either since pretty much the exact same unit was performing better not that long ago.

But we do have pieces that need to be addressed. I'm not nearly concerned about our Db's as I am our pass rush.

Ditto on the pass rush; lost in the horror over the state of our DB's, I feel it's getting short shrift.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

While at OLB, I would prefer finding a FA to fill that need, I think a #29 pick has a better shot at making an immediate impact at OLB than at CB.

It is awfully tough to select a pass rusher that has an immediate impact at #29 as well. Thompson has to address both positions via free agency this offseason.

Ditto on the pass rush; lost in the horror over the state of our DB's, I feel it's getting short shrift.

While I agree the pass rush needs to be improved as well it's close to impossible to put any pressure on a quarterback if your cornerbacks can't cover opposing receivers for at least two seconds.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

It is awfully tough to select a pass rusher that has an immediate impact at #29 as well. Thompson has to address both positions via free agency this offseason.

Totally agree and I think we both know what the chances are that TT does that! My fear is entering the draft with both CB and OLB being positions of need and once again having to try and fill them with draft choices that could have been used on future development (OL, WR, DL) had TT been more active in Free Agency.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Totally agree and I think we both know what the chances are that TT does that! My fear is entering the draft with both CB and OLB being positions of need and once again having to try and fill them with draft choices that could have been used on future development (OL, WR, DL) had TT been more active in Free Agency.

I would be absolutely devastated if Thompson doesn't finally selectively uses free agency to address cornerback and outside linebacker this offseason.

 

[Poppa San]

I would be absolutely devastated if Thompson doesn't finally selectively uses free agency to address cornerback and outside linebacker this offseason.

Will you make a distinction between UFA and street free agents? Signing for depth? jags?

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Will you make a distinction between UFA and street free agents? Signing for depth? jags?

I don't care about the way Thompson addresses these positions (unrestricted and street free agent or a trade) but he has to significantly improve them before the draft.

 

[NelsonsLongCatch]

Disagree. If Shields and Matthews had played the season at their all time peak levels, I think we'd have had a top 3 defense with Perry, Daniels and Peppers at their current level of play. No opponent would have had enough blockers to contain our pass rush, turnovers would have been much higher imo. We'd have been a late season juggernaut once the offense got untracked and waltzed into the super bowl.

You're over-valuing Perry (and the rest of the defense). He had 12.5 sacks in his first 4 seasons before having 11 last season. The Packers have had 5 years to observe Perry and I would wager that he wont' be back next season.

 

[Mondio]

I think when healthy, Perry has always shown he's a pretty good football player. The knock is, he hasn't played healthy all that often. Bad luck? or what he is? his value is tough to judge. I'd be very wary of giving him a large contract, but he's also a guy that is clearly capable of double digit sacks, can collapse a pocket from one side and can set the edge against the run as good as anybody. You don't just cast those guys aside either.

 

[PackerDNA]

I think when healthy, Perry has always shown he's a pretty good football player. The knock is, he hasn't played healthy all that often. Bad luck? or what he is? his value is tough to judge. I'd be very wary of giving him a large contract, but he's also a guy that is clearly capable of double digit sacks, can collapse a pocket from one side and can set the edge against the run as good as anybody. You don't just cast those guys aside either.

Not a great, pure pass rusher, and needs help to maximize his pass rush effectiveness, but yeah, he is a very solid player in more than one area.

 

[Dantés]

The problem with Perry is that teams keep their capable pass rushers. I doubt Jones or Ingram actually make it to market. So if you decide to go another direction, you probably won't have many options.

 

[PackerDNA]

The problem with Perry is that teams keep their capable pass rushers. I doubt Jones or Ingram actually make it to market. So if you decide to go another direction, you probably won't have many options.

Agreed; I don't see the Cards letting Jones get away, they paid a high price for him and he's too important to them. The point for me isn't so much getting top of the food chain guys- although if you have a shot at a premium talent such as Jones, you go for it- but getting good veteran players in here, of which they'll be plenty available.