Packers Lions Stud Dud Superthread

[Pokerbrat2000]

It funny as I was watching this with couple of Lions fans and they all wanted to lose. It's debatable over who was *****ing more at HT, me or them

Yup, a buddy of mine is a Lions fan and he wanted them to lose as well. Had they won, they would have been picking 4th in every round, instead of 3rd. Not to debate the value of an end of a 3-12-1 season win VS. picking 3rd instead of 4th in the first round, but I could relate to how some of those Lion fans were thinking.

Speaking of the Draft, the Packers won't be picking any higher than #26. For that to happen, the Ravens, 49'ers and Packers would all have to get knocked out in Round 2 of the playoffs.

 

[DarkHelmet]

Studs:
Crosby for coming through in the clutch.

A. Jones: catching that last little screen with no wiggle room at all was huge. The guy is a legit star. Thank heavens, given that our receiving corps is deficient.

D. Adams: our only legit starting receiver

Lazard: should be a 3 or 4 at this stage of his career and has moved up to 2 because MVS and Allison are so bad. Still, has gotten he job done. I think he still has upside, too.

L. Patrick: To my eyes the running attack got better when he came in. Linsley is a better pass blocker, but I do think Patrick is better for the run game. Part of it was the D getting tired, too.

Scott

Z. Smith

P. Smith

Martinez? Got to give him props for the INT. Effort is never a question with Blake.

King. He's gotten visibly better over the last few weeks. He's going to need to step it up a further notch when the Saints (probably) come to Lambeau.

Duds:

Graham. It was a bad signing. Period. Should have kept Cook. I can understand losing a step or two as a receiver ages. But how is it possible to have such bad hands after such an incredible career? SMH.

MVS. Unless he takes a big step forward in the next training camp he should be gone. There are lots of fast guys out there. Some of them can even catch a ball.

Allison. I like the guy's effort and bravery, but his tendency to cough up the ball is beyond alarming. Job 1: hang onto the football. If you can't do that you can't play in this league.


And now for a group dud: A. Rodgers/the receiving corps/MLF

There's plenty of blame to go around and it's hard to know exactly how to portion it out. Dropped balls are on the receiver, obviously. Yes, even when it's behind you, if you get two hands on it you have to catch it. Third string unknown receivers catch balls thrown a little behind them. On the other hand, a franchise quarterback shouldn't have too many of those in any given game. Rodgers has had too many of late.

More worrisome is the tendency to throw long, low percentage passes. I'm very tired of it. There is a time to take a shot and there is a time to concentrate on moving the chains. I assume the decision to take the long shot too often is mostly on Rodgers, but I assign at least some blame to MLF for not getting Rodgers to hit the checkdowns often enough.

Semi-dud: Gute for letting Cobb walk without getting an adequate replacement (Sanders?) This team minus Graham and MVS plus Cobb and Jared Cook = much better chance to win a playoff game.

 

[Poppa San]

It funny as I was watching this with couple of Lions fans and they all wanted to lose. It's debatable over who was *****ing more at HT, me or them

3rd to 4th in draft order that big a deal?

 

[Poppa San]

Graham. It was a bad signing. Period. Should have kept Cook.

Graham replaced the disaster known as Mo Bennett, not Cook. cook settled for less elsewhere. We've been over this many times here already.

 

[gopkrs]

3rd to 4th in draft order that big a deal?

It might be if trading down. Not claiming to know.

 

[DarkHelmet]

Graham replaced the disaster known as Mo Bennett, not Cook. cook settled for less elsewhere. We've been over this many times here already.

I'm aware of it. If they had kept Cook they wouldn't have acquired the disaster known as Mo Bennett.

Four bad decisions have hurt the Packers pass game:
1) Failure to retain Cook (which led to bad Bennett)
2) Signing Graham (followed from 1)
3) Failure to retain Cobb
4) Failure to bolster receiving corps mid season when it became evident our roster was inadequate.

Those four decisions may cost the Packers a shot at the Superbowl this year.

A fifth bad decision was drafting Ja'mon Moore, but I am less critical of that because every draft decision is a gamble.

In contrast, they knew what they had with Cook: a guy who could make important, game changing catches.

They knew what they had with Cobb: an above average slot receiver who could move the chains and knew what to do on broken plays.

Mid-season this year they knew what they didn't have: a legit #2 receiver and a legit #1 TE.

SF bolstered their roster mid season. The Packers didn't.

 

[XPack]

Yup, a buddy of mine is a Lions fan and he wanted them to lose as well. Had they won, they would have been picking 4th in every round, instead of 3rd. Not to debate the value of an end of a 3-12-1 season win VS. picking 3rd instead of 4th in the first round, but I could relate to how some of those Lion fans were thinking.

3rd to 4th in draft order that big a deal?

The lot of them are salivating over Chase Young. Bengals would pick a QB. Redskins may pick him but they need OLine and WRs.more, so there's a 50/50 chance Young would fall to them. Had they won and Giants pick 3rd, they'd definitely pick him too.

 

[Curly Calhoun]

It might be if trading down. Not claiming to know.

Last game of the 1989 season, the teams with the two worst records in the NFL faced off against one another....Green Bay and Dallas. Green Bay emerged victorious, and the Cowboys drafted just ahead of them...Dallas took Troy Aikman, and so began the building of a team that would win three Super Bowls in a four year period.

Green Bay drafted second....

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Tony Mandarich.

It is noteworthy that after Mandarich, the next two players off the board were Barry Sanders and Deion Sanders, respectively.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Last game of the 1989 season, the teams with the two worst records in the NFL faced off against one another....Green Bay and Dallas. Green Bay emerged victorious, and the Cowboys drafted just ahead of them...Dallas took Troy Aikman, and so began the building of a team that would win three Super Bowls in a four year period.

I remember it well, although you have the seasons confused. It was the 1988 season and the 1989 draft. Looking back, I was hoping the Packers would lose that game against the Cardinals and get the first pick in the draft. But who knows, even if they had, they may have drafted Mandarich who was considered one of the biggest beasts to ever make it to the NFL level. Had they lost that day and drafted Aikman, the whole Packer history could have changed quite a bit, probably wouldn't have included Favre for sure.

Edited: to get historical facts correct

 

[Curly Calhoun]

I remember it well and even back then I was hoping the Packers would lose that game against the Cardinals and get the first pick in the draft. But who knows, even if they had, they may have drafted Mandarich who was considered one of the biggest beasts to ever make it to the NFL level. Had they lost that day and drafted Aikman, the whole Packer history could have changed quite a bit, probably wouldn't have included Favre for sure.

My thought as well, with regard to Favre. And while Troy Aikman thrived in Dallas, would he have done so in Green Bay? The Cowboys had the ammo to rebuild quickly, thanks to the Herschel Walker trade and the ever-generous Vikings. Green Bay remained a work-in-progress for a few more years....

 

[RRyder]

I remember it well and even back then I was hoping the Packers would lose that game against the Cardinals and get the first pick in the draft. But who knows, even if they had, they may have drafted Mandarich who was considered one of the biggest beasts to ever make it to the NFL level. Had they lost that day and drafted Aikman, the whole Packer history could have changed quite a bit, probably wouldn't have included Favre for sure.

If the Packers dont draft Mandarich and instead take say Barry Sanders the Lindy era continues on at least a few extra years (how long did Fontz last?), the Packers are to late to hire Wolf as their GM by the time they let Lindy go, Wolf isn't here to hire Holmgrem or trade for Favre, White signs elsewhere...... Boom we're the Lions

Drafting Mandarich was the best thing that ever happened to this franchise

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

If the Packers dont draft Mandarich and instead take say Barry Sanders the Lindy era continues on at least a few extra years (how long did Fontz last?), the Packers are to late to hire Wolf as their GM by the time they let Lindy go, Wolf isn't here to hire Holmgrem or trade for Favre, White signs elsewhere...... Boom we're the Lions

Drafting Mandarich was the best thing that ever happened to this franchise

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[BrokenArrow]

Might be time for ignore

Yeah, I'm about to do that. I think it's time for everyone to do that.

 

[milani]

Wake the hell up you dumb receivers and start playing football!!!

Only about 3 studs so far in AJ, Dex and Davante

All duds = Mike Pettines garbage run defense

All receivers not named Adams

Super Dud - Brian Gute for giving us these garbage receivers

You could also complain about the dud secondary that Ted Thompson gave us for years.

 

[BrokenArrow]

More worrisome is the tendency to throw long, low percentage passes. I'm very tired of it. There is a time to take a shot and there is a time to concentrate on moving the chains. I assume the decision to take the long shot too often is mostly on Rodgers, but I assign at least some blame to MLF for not getting Rodgers to hit the checkdowns often enough.

I was thinking about MLF's comment just a while ago about you have to take what the defense is giving you and those long passes were the right read. It's hard to get a good picture of what the defense is doing on every play with TV style video coverage, but it could simply be that they are taking away the short routes just to force Rodgers to throw deep. Has his accuracy downfield deteriorated such that this is the recipe for beating him now? It seems that may be the case.

 

[BrokenArrow]

Last game of the 1989 season, the teams with the two worst records in the NFL faced off against one another....Green Bay and Dallas.

We were 10-6 in '89.

 

[Curly Calhoun]

We were 10-6 in '89.

My mistake....It was the 1988 season, preceding the 1989 draft. And it was a victory over the Cardinals, not the Cowboys. that cost Green Bay its draft position. Green Bay actually won its last two games that year.

In 1988 Green Bay won only one game at Lambeau, that at the expense of the Vikings. The also won one in Milwaukee and two on the road.....Beat the Vikings twice.

In my previous post, I was working from memory, never a good idea in my case. Mea Culpa for the bad intel.

 

[BrokenArrow]

In my previous post, I was working from memory, never a good idea in my case. Mea Culpa for the bad intel.

Meh... I had to double-check myself.

 

[PackerfaninCarolina]

You could also complain about the dud secondary that Ted Thompson gave us for years.

Well, I mean ... Yeah he whiffed on a few there like HHCD and didn't use free agency

But I wonder if perhaps some of his picks that ended up leaving here would have done better if MM had sent Capers packing sooner. I think Capers made a few look like duds that shouldn't have.

 

[Poppa San]

Drafting Mandarich was the best thing that ever happened to this franchise

You need to make this your signature.

 

[tynimiller]

Martinez? Got to give him props for the INT. Effort is never a question with Blake.

Yup! Which is why I honestly think if we pay him this off season we literally have a slightly more athletic Aj Hawk situation all over again...where folks are utterly unhappy with what he can do vs what we pay him...the saving grace for him vs AJ is position we drafted him at though.

 

[DarkHelmet]

I was thinking about MLF's comment just a while ago about you have to take what the defense is giving you and those long passes were the right read. It's hard to get a good picture of what the defense is doing on every play with TV style video coverage, but it could simply be that they are taking away the short routes just to force Rodgers to throw deep. Has his accuracy downfield deteriorated such that this is the recipe for beating him now? It seems that may be the case.

I think his accuracy in general has deteriorated. But in a weird way. He misses on some short comparatively easy passes and then hits a tiny window on various short, medium and even long passes. I don't get it. Could be a residual of his collarbone fractures and the repairs thereto. Could be lack of familiarity with relatively new teammates and/or scheme.

I agree it's hard to tell if those long shots were the most open receivers when watching on the standard network feed. Certainly you have to take what the defense gives you to a large extent. However, if Rodgers is losing long ball accuracy MLF needs to work harder at scheming open the shorter routes through motion, misdirection quasi-pick plays, using his receivers' height advantage, etc.

However, it's not the like the short throw accuracy has been terrific. I really think a substantial part of the problem is lack of connection between Rodgers and the newer guys. He was in synch with Jordy and Randall Cobb most of the time. Both those guys are gone. From Rodgers' perspective he's got Adams and a bunch of guys he's played with for 18 months or less.

 

[XPack]

(Outside chance I think the Patrick deal may be a sign a surprise fiscal savings move is to cut Linsley before next season...about $8 million saved if so)

That would be spectacularly bad move. Linsley is incredibly consistent and doesn't miss time due to injuries. He's PFF 6th best center last season iirc and his package is by no means top of the line for that position. Also we need Patrick flexible to shuffle around and I wouldn't tie him up as starting center.

 

[tynimiller]

That would be spectacularly bad move. Linsley is incredibly consistent and doesn't miss time due to injuries. He's PFF 6th best center last season iirc and his package is by no means top of the line for that position. Also we need Patrick flexible to shuffle around and I wouldn't tie him up as starting center.

It isn't as simple as looking at what keeping him does or from a statistical stance...one must consider what does keeping him cost the team. Does it cost them not signing a true #2 WR? Does it cost them resigning a more pivotal spot along the line which is harder to replace like RT (Bulaga)?

I LOVE Linsley 100%. Honestly, I believe outside of Jenkins has the Highest remaining ceiling of the OL...BUT from a fiscal stance it would make sense, and from a positional stance it is a lot easier to replace a C on the go than it is to replace a Tackle. By letting Linsley walk or trading him before March when he is due a million bonus we literally free up around 8 million...couple that with cutting Graham and folks there is plenty of money there without anything else to go get us a surefire TE or WR that we desperately need.

Trust me I hate the idea of Linsley going, but stepping back allows me to see the immense benefits of such a move as well. I think we only see this move if Gute clearly decides we are getting aggressive in FA offensively...if the organization is more comfortable than some are here with what Jace is going to be and how sure they are Lazard and others are going to make a big step in a year as well...

 

[PackerfaninCarolina]

I think his accuracy in general has deteriorated. But in a weird way. He misses on some short comparatively easy passes and then hits a tiny window on various short, medium and even long passes. I don't get it. Could be a residual of his collarbone fractures and the repairs thereto. Could be lack of familiarity with relatively new teammates and/or scheme.

I agree it's hard to tell if those long shots were the most open receivers when watching on the standard network feed. Certainly you have to take what the defense gives you to a large extent. However, if Rodgers is losing long ball accuracy MLF needs to work harder at scheming open the shorter routes through motion, misdirection quasi-pick plays, using his receivers' height advantage, etc.

However, it's not the like the short throw accuracy has been terrific. I really think a substantial part of the problem is lack of connection between Rodgers and the newer guys. He was in synch with Jordy and Randall Cobb most of the time. Both those guys are gone. From Rodgers' perspective he's got Adams and a bunch of guys he's played with for 18 months or less.

I don't wonder if he isn't thinking in his head that certain dudes are going to drop the ball