OFFICIAL 2018 1ST ROUND PICK Jaire Alexander

[Dantés]

Couple thoughts:

Had the Packers taken Derwin James instead of what they did, they would be taking different players with those picks they gave up. To truly rate the trade we would have to know the Packers board.

I thought Alexander was a much bigger injury risk than James. I think that was a common opinion.

I would rather have a CB than a safety if they are on the same level.

I would take a HOF Safety over a AllPro CB.


Funny thing. I did not like the trade back, though the we didn't get the value. Did not like the value of the trade up. But, both trades together, I thought we got good value.

That's interesting to me that you didn't like the value of the trade ups, as the price tags in both cases were low compared to similar NFL trades.

 

[AmishMafia]

I just want to point out that I was the first man on the Jaire train.

Never forget!

Oh?


I direct you to the first opinion expressed in this thread:

Alexander is an outstanding cb and will help this team. I would have preferred sitting tight and taking Edmunds. I don't think next year will be as deep of a draft and I don't know that we got value. But, if we would have taken JA at 14 anyway, then Gute did very well. Tough to give up a 3 as I think that player is probably starter quality in this draft.

Jaire won the combine and I put him as the packer's pick in my mock via a trade back. He will start as a rookie and be good.

Y'all are jumping on the band wagon I am driving!

That's interesting to me that you didn't like the value of the trade ups, as the price tags in both cases were low compared to similar NFL trades.

What is the value of a pick? Some number in a chart meant to represent player value or he actual talent currently on the board? To me there were 4 guys available I wanted: Edmunds, James, Davenport and Alexander. I though all 4 of these guys were the last of the impact level players. I also thought we were giving up a very good 3rd rounder. I was advocating Rasheem Green who Seattle ended up taking 3 picks later. He looked really good as a rookie but not as much this year. thought wasa lot to give up. Furthermore, I did not hink the next draft was as deep. I think that bore out as well.

 

[Dantés]

Oh?


I direct you to the first opinion expressed in this thread:


Y'all are jumping on the band wagon I am driving!
What is the value of a pick? Some number in a chart meant to represent player value or he actual talent currently on the board? To me there were 4 guys available I wanted: Edmunds, James, Davenport and Alexander. I though all 4 of these guys were the last of the impact level players. I also thought we were giving up a very good 3rd rounder. I was advocating Rasheem Green who Seattle ended up taking 3 picks later. He looked really good as a rookie but not as much this year. thought wasa lot to give up. Furthermore, I did not hink the next draft was as deep. I think that bore out as well.

Like I said-- "compared to similar NFL trades."

 

[RRyder]

In Pete Carroll's particular scheme, one could make the case that Earl Thomas was the most important player on the field. This is largely because of how much single high coverage he played and the reality that zone corners are not as rare or hard to come by.

And yet despite that, they still paid Richard Sherman more than Thomas (and way more than Chancellor who, while good, does not belong in this discussion). In 2013, Chancellor got 4/28/17; in 2014, Thomas got 4/40/28; and also in 2014, Sherman got 4/56/40.

So if Thomas, or play-making safeties in general, are considered more valuable, then you have to explain why they get paid like they are less valuable.

In the last 10 years, 9 cornerbacks have been drafted in the top 10 picks, while only 3 safeties can say that. Again, that's hard to explain if play-making safeties are more valuable that corners.

The best young safety who has had a chance to hit FA, Kevin Byard, got an extension for 5/70.5M/31 from the Titans. And let me tell you if you're unaware-- Byard is a stud. Trumaine Johnson, who was basically considered to be merely above average when he hit the market, beat that deal despite signing it a year earlier and being older at the time. What is someone like Jalen Ramsey going to do? He's going to blow it out of the water.

There's no evidence that the league considers safeties, even dynamic ones, to be more valuable than corners, generally. And this is especially true when talking about man coverage safeties. All the evidence actually points in the opposite direction.

Yes the league average salary for Corners is higher then Safties. Not sure why you thought I didnt know that. The league also has made WR one of the highest paid position groups in the league and yet high priced WRs rarely actually win. Market and on field value are different. They probably shouldnt be but it doesnt always line up like that.

Yes Kam is a level lower as a player and yet I'd say he was still more valuable to that defense then Sherman but to keep it simple for this conversation the question should be would you prefer to have E Thomas or R Sherman? I think that's an easy as hell choice

Doesnt matter though. It's kinda of a stupid argument to have. I'm content with the draft pick now and we all having differing opinions so ehhh but on this only responded because a guy pulled a post up in order to gloat and I've simply always found that douchy as hell

 

[AmishMafia]

Like I said-- "compared to similar NFL trades."

Again, it doesn't matter what a draft value chart says when you are in the draft and you know who is available. What if the perfect player was sitting there for us and we think in our system he is HOF level at a position we need help? What if the next best player we rate as an average starter? If a team wants to trade up even 1 spot, it's going to cost much more than a chart says. Suppose we have the next 8 players rated the same and a team wants us to trade back 7 picks and no pressing needs? Costs a lot less than the chart.

Now, back to the actual context of the situation I thought there were 4 elite players left (I thought all 4 could go top 10). That will cost quite a bit to move out of there.

 

[Dantés]

Yes the league average salary for Corners is higher then Safties. Not sure why you thought I didnt know that. The league also has made WR one of the highest paid position groups in the league and yet high priced WRs rarely actually win. Market and on field value are different. They probably shouldnt be but it doesnt always line up like that.

Yes Kam is a level lower as a player and yet I'd say he was still more valuable to that defense then Sherman but to keep it simple for this conversation the question should be would you prefer to have E Thomas or R Sherman? I think that's an easy as hell choice

Doesnt matter though. It's kinda of a stupid argument to have. I'm content with the draft pick now and we all having differing opinions so ehhh but on this only responded because a guy pulled a post up in order to gloat and I've simply always found that douchy as hell

In Carroll's defense, I'll take Thomas. But that's a highly unique situation. In most defenses, the man cover corner is much more valuable than the free safety, all else being equal. That's especially true of Pettine's defense.

 

[Dantés]

Again, it doesn't matter what a draft value chart says when you are in the draft and you know who is available. What if the perfect player was sitting there for us and we think in our system he is HOF level at a position we need help? What if the next best player we rate as an average starter? If a team wants to trade up even 1 spot, it's going to cost much more than a chart says. Suppose we have the next 8 players rated the same and a team wants us to trade back 7 picks and no pressing needs? Costs a lot less than the chart.

Now, back to the actual context of the situation I thought there were 4 elite players left (I thought all 4 could go top 10). That will cost quite a bit to move out of there.

Amish.

I have not mentioned a chart.

I said "compared to similar NFL trades."

 

[AmishMafia]

Amish.

I have not mentioned a chart.

I said "compared to similar NFL trades."

Okay.


Then how about this:


It is fricking stupid to compare it to other similar NFL trades.

 

[Dantés]

Okay.


Then how about this:


It is fricking stupid to compare it to other similar NFL trades.

Right?? Why would anyone compare something to similar circumstances for context?! Fricking stupid!!!

Did you wake up on the wrong side or the haycart? Did someone wizz in your rolled oats? My first comment was pretty benign dude.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

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[AmishMafia]

Right?? Why would anyone compare something to similar circumstances for context?! Fricking stupid!!!

Did you wake up on the wrong side or the haycart? Did someone wizz in your rolled oats? My first comment was pretty benign dude.

Because they are not similar. I explained it twice and even gave you 2 examples. I even explained it in the context of this situation.

In order to go by comparison to other trades as your guide you must believe that every year has the same talent level, the same talent distribution, and all teams have the players ranked the same.

Clearly this is not the case.

My apologies if I came off as a terse as$hole. I am just an ***hole, not sure where the terseness came from.

 

[Dantés]

Because they are not similar. I explained it twice and even gave you 2 examples. I even explained it in the context of this situation.

In order to go by comparison to other trades as your guide you must believe that every year has the same talent level, the same talent distribution, and all teams have the players ranked the same.

Clearly this is not the case.

My apologies if I came off as a terse as$hole. I am just an ***hole, not sure where the terseness came from.

I think you can simply believe that, over time, similar trades provide something of a context which help guide judgment on others. They aren't conclusive but they can give a framework.

And my initial comment wasn't even calling you wrong. I just said I found your take interesting for reasons stated. You explained it. That's all fine.

 

[OldSchool101]

It’s not fine by me!
I’m Absolutely NOT letting this go!

Um......... .... ... what’s the thread topic again?

 

[Mondio]

My apologies if I came off as a terse as$hole. I am just an ***hole, not sure where the terseness came from.

It is never too late to add a tool to the tool box, you don't know how many times I wish I had a terseness and couldn't find one anywhere.

 

[Poppa San]

It is never too late to add a tool to the tool box, you don't know how many times I wish I had a terseness and couldn't find one anywhere.

My wife has terseness in spades. One is practically swimming in it when she says "FINE" or "WHATEVER."

 

[AmishMafia]

It is never too late to add a tool to the tool box, you don't know how many times I wish I had a terseness and couldn't find one anywhere.

I found a big pile of it while wiring a large light, fishing 12' of wire through the 12' ceiling standing on a ladder crossing some bizarre hidden truss combination finally finished and realized as I am hanging the light, I threaded the ceiling plate backwards. As I lowered the light a loop caught wire and pulled the fished wire out. And right there, as I started over, was a bit heaping steaming pile of terseness.

 

[Mondio]

I found a big pile of it while wiring a large light, fishing 12' of wire through the 12' ceiling standing on a ladder crossing some bizarre hidden truss combination finally finished and realized as I am hanging the light, I threaded the ceiling plate backwards. As I lowered the light a loop caught wire and pulled the fished wire out. And right there, as I started over, was a bit heaping steaming pile of terseness.

But think of how much wiser you are after that experience and now you have a new tool.