NFL Playoff Machine

ARPackFan

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With six weeks left, four of the five teams at the top of the NFC have had their bye and the Vikings have theirs this Sunday. The match ups against the other top NFC teams on the schedule swing the ESPN playoff calculator outcomes the most (listed below). The 49ers have the hardest remaining schedule in the NFL and are followed by the Seahawks (#4), Saints (#10), Vikings (#12) and then the Packers (#22). It is effectively a six game season at this time. This game against the 49ers is big in my opinion because if you don't beat them at home now it is likely you will have to do it in the playoffs. A loss by the Packers would also open up the door for the Vikings to win the NFC north.

http://www.tankathon.com/nfl/remaining_schedule_strength

49ers (9-1) : Packers, Saints, Seahawks
Packers (8-2) : 49ers, Vikings
Saints (8-2) : 49ers
Seahawks (8-2) : 49ers, Vikings
Vikings (8-3) : Seahawks, Packers
 
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HardRightEdge

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The ephemeral nature of these kinds of projections with 6 weeks to go is illustrated in ESPN's Football Power Index which calculates the following odds of gaining the #1 seed based on the Sunday night outcome:

Packer win over 49ers: Packers 44%, 49ers 10%
49ers win over Packers: Packers 4%, 49ers 45%

https://www.espn.com/blog/green-bay...-beat-49ers-once-at-their-place-at-some-point

Those odds won't even last to Sunday night based on the outcomes of the other Sunday games, let alone the 5 weeks to follow.

Even a Rams win at home against the Ravens this week and a Packer loss puts the Rams one game back of the Packers with the Rams holding the head-to-head tie breaker. Then you're looking backward at the threat from behind as much as who's ahead.

Of the current top 7 NFC teams, there are the following head-to-games remaining without even considering other tough matchups left to play, like SEA at PHI this week, SF at BAL the following week, or anybody playing PHI who is still in the hunt, or anybody playing ATL after these last two weeks, etc., etc.:

Week 12: GB at SF
Week 13: MIN at SEA
Week 14: SF at NO, SEA at LAR
Week 15: LAR at DAL
Week 16: LAR at SF, GB at MIN
Week 17: SF at SEA

These algorithmic projections will be a constant rinse and repeat with no clarity until the closing weeks or week. Maybe not until SF @ SEA at 4:30 PM Eastern in week 17.

If that's not enough, it is worth recalling in 2010 that if 8-5 TAM had not lost to 3-10 DET in week 15, the Packers don't make the playoffs. That game went to OT; all TAM needed was a tie as it turned out. Conversely, the Packers lost to 2-10 DET the previous week with Flynn having to play most of the game, yet another instance of "sh*t happens". Detroit won their final 4 games that season; beware the wounded dogs with a bite! ATL might this season's.

The Packers odds of making the playoffs dropped further in Week 15 of that season with the loss to NE with Flynn at QB again, in the ultimate "sh*t" happens game: Rodgers was out which could not have been predicted at Week 12, a NE offensive lineman returned a KO 71 yards costing 7 points, Flynn threw a pick 6, and Flynn was still in position to win at 1st. and 10 at the NE 24 with a minute to play and one time out left in the bag. Then Flynn was sacked. I believe the machines dropped their playoff odds to sub-25%.

I'm sure Rodgers, with a near photgraphic football memory, is aware of how sh*t happens over the course of 6 weeks when he says the Packers will have to beat SF @ SF sooner or later. Certainly he knows that's a big fat TBD. I mean c'mon...even if the Packers don't get a bye, they could as easily be playing in NO or DAL or SEA or PHI or MIN or who knows. Talking up the competition beats the alternative. Any seed that is planted where the opposition runs the NFL Playoff Machine or whatnot in their own minds whereby they conclude that, "Even if we lose we're still in OK shape," would be half of this week's battle. For his guys, it's the idea, "let's not come back," a focus on this game.

In short, these kinds of projections at this stage are like predicting the direction of a swirling wind. I'm not sure what's the bigger waste of time at this juncture, making a projection or explaining why it's a waste of time. ;)

It is one game at a time, taking control of what you can control, boring (when the games are not in progress), until that 4:30 PM SF @ SEA in Week 17 where the guys (and us) can just watch and wait to see what the football gods deliver, providing it even matters at that point. Try to predict at this juncture whether, or in what way, that last game will matter. Good luck with that.
 
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tynimiller

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Honestly, I feel best case GB loses two (maybe one) of our remaining games. I 100% hope I'm wrong but I sense between Vikings, Lions, Bears, 49ers...we drop 2 of em. That last 3 games, in division, two of those teams will be looking to just screw up the Packers playoff position...nothing easy about what lies before us.

We will not go undefeated in those four....ain't happening.
 

Pokerbrat2000

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Honestly, I feel best case GB loses two of our remaining games. I 100% hope I'm wrong but I sense between Vikings, Lions, Bears, 49ers...we drop 2 of em. That last 3 games, in division, two of those teams will be looking to just screw up the Packers playoff position...nothing easy about what lies before us.

As long as we win every game after these next 6, I am fine with that. :coffee:
 
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OP
OP
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So I saw today that with a GB win this a Sunday, it puts us at a 44% probability for a #1 seed..even with 5 contests remaining beyond that.

while a loss puts us a 96% probable we DO NOT get #1 seeding.

This game has a huge swing in the home-field probability meter and it’s essentially a non conversation if we lose.
https://amp.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000001079088/article/aaron-rodgers-packers-need-to-win-in-san-francisco?networkId=4595&site=.news&zone=story&zoneUrl=url=story&zoneKeys=s1=story&env=&pageKeyValues=prtnr=around-the-league;team=gb;conf=nfc;dvsn=ncn&p.ct=Around+the+NFL&p.adsm=true&p.tcm=#fff&p.bgc1m=#0964bf&p.bgc2m=#053a74&sr=amp


This is essentially what i was seeing as well. Thank you for putting more concrete numbers behind it
 
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HardRightEdge

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So I saw today that with a GB win this a Sunday, it puts us at a 44% probability for a #1 seed..even with 5 contests remaining beyond that.

while a loss puts us a 96% probable we DO NOT get #1 seeding.

This game has a huge swing in the home-field probability meter and it’s essentially a non conversation if we lose.
https://amp.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000001079088/article/aaron-rodgers-packers-need-to-win-in-san-francisco?networkId=4595&site=.news&zone=story&zoneUrl=url=story&zoneKeys=s1=story&env=&pageKeyValues=prtnr=around-the-league;team=gb;conf=nfc;dvsn=ncn&p.ct=Around+the+NFL&p.adsm=true&p.tcm=#fff&p.bgc1m=#0964bf&p.bgc2m=#053a74&sr=amp
Funny thing. This was stated at the top of post #27, just above yours, which you "liked". Did you read it? ;)

As for the rest of post #27, if you don't like the percentages after Sunday night (or even if you do like them), just wait a week. They could be quite different, or the week after that, or the week after that....
 
D

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Even a Rams win at home against the Ravens this week and a Packer loss puts the Rams one game back of the Packers with the Rams holding the head-to-head tie breaker.

Just for the record, the Packers won't play the Rams this season, they lost to the Chargers.

As long as we win every game after these next 6, I am fine with that. :coffee:

Careful, the Packers would end up missing the playoffs if they lose too many of the next six games.
 

Poppa San

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I believe it will take 11 wins to get a NFC wildcard spot this season.
Good chance the NFCE is won by a 10-6 or even 9-7 team. Currently no NFCE team has a winning record outside the division. Their schedule involves 3 cakewalk games vs Jets, Dolphins, and Lions.
 
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HardRightEdge

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Just for the record, the Packers won't play the Rams this season, they lost to the Chargers.
Correct, brain fart. That only marginally changes the picture and does not alter the argument.

If after this week the Packers are 8-3 and the Rams 7-4 with five weeks to go, tie breaker or not, there is looking over one's shoulder. It goes to show how fluid the situtation is at this stage of the season.

As for the NFL Playoff Machine, for all the repetition of these numbers in the media echo chamber, has anybody bothered to ask how they calculated these numbers, as pointless as they may be? If we actually saw the algorithm we might say, "hold on there, buddy." Beware the black box.
 

PackAttack12

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So I saw today that with a GB win this a Sunday, it puts us at a 44% probability for a #1 seed..even with 5 contests remaining beyond that.

while a loss puts us a 96% probable we DO NOT get #1 seeding.

This game has a huge swing in the home-field probability meter and it’s essentially a non conversation if we lose.
https://amp.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000001079088/article/aaron-rodgers-packers-need-to-win-in-san-francisco?networkId=4595&site=.news&zone=story&zoneUrl=url=story&zoneKeys=s1=story&env=&pageKeyValues=prtnr=around-the-league;team=gb;conf=nfc;dvsn=ncn&p.ct=Around+the+NFL&p.adsm=true&p.tcm=#fff&p.bgc1m=#0964bf&p.bgc2m=#053a74&sr=amp
Makes sense given that the Packers are currently a game behind the 49ers. A loss Sunday essentially takes us from 1 game back to 3 games back, because finishing with identical records would be of zero benefit to the Packers.

I do think the 49ers catch some L's down the line, but making up 3 games in 5 weeks is highly unlikely.

As far as the #1 seed in the NFC goes, it's now or never. Unless Seattle leaps them in the division of course.
 

Pokerbrat2000

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We root for Seattle over Minnesota next week correct?
Well not exactly. We root for a really ugly game, lots of penalties, turnovers, injuries and mistakes. The game is interrupted several times by lightening storms and because of the delays and the game going into OT it lasts just over 12 hrs. and ends in a 0 - 0 tie. Both teams are so wiped out by the experience, they both go on to lose their next 4 games. :coffee:
 
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PackAttack12

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A few notes:
  • The Packers win the division in 72% of scenarios as it currently sits. Beating the Vikings in Week 16 increases that number to 94%. Basically, the Vikings would have to pray for a miracle.
  • The Packers obtain the #1 seed in 22% of scenarios as it currently sits and obtain a 1st round bye in 54% of the scenarios. The 54% is a strong number with 6 games to go. The #1 seed percentage increases to 47% with a win over the 49ers and the bye percentage increases to 70%.
  • If the Packers lose to the 49ers, they only have a 33% chance at getting the #1 seed, even assuming they win the next 5 games to finish at 13-3.
  • The Packers don't quite control its own destiny by winning out. They would have a 98% chance. A tie at 14-2 with Seattle would leave the Packers with the #2 seed in 100% of the scenarios.
  • The Packers currently make the playoffs in 94% of scenarios (incase anyone is nervous)
Whoever initially invented the playoff simulator didn't give a rats *** that it would force me to waste unnecessary time piddling with countless scenarios. ;)
 
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HardRightEdge

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A few notes:
  • The Packers win the division in 72% of scenarios as it currently sits. Beating the Vikings in Week 16 increases that number to 94%. Basically, the Vikings would have to pray for a miracle.
  • The Packers obtain the #1 seed in 22% of scenarios as it currently sits and obtain a 1st round bye in 54% of the scenarios. The 54% is a strong number with 6 games to go. The #1 seed percentage increases to 47% with a win over the 49ers and the bye percentage increases to 70%.
  • If the Packers lose to the 49ers, they only have a 33% chance at getting the #1 seed, even assuming they win the next 5 games to finish at 13-3.
  • The Packers don't quite control its own destiny by winning out. They would have a 98% chance. A tie at 14-2 with Seattle would leave the Packers with the #2 seed in 100% of the scenarios.
  • The Packers currently make the playoffs in 94% of scenarios (incase anyone is nervous)
Whoever initially invented the playoff simulator didn't give a rats *** that it would force me to waste unnecessary time piddling with countless scenarios. ;)
Do you have a supercomputer, or at least a bank of servers, in your basement? ;)

Let's say we're talking about just the 7 NFC teams at 6-4 or better, all mathematically eligibible for the #1 seed. Those teams have a cumulative total of 41 games remaining. The head-to-head games represent duplicates. I count 8 of those. That brings the unique game count among those teams down to 33.

The possible combinations in those 33 games, assuming no ties, is 2 to the 33rd. power or 8,589,934,592. Factor in a ties, 3 possible outcomes in each game, and the number gets massively larger. There may be more teams that are not mathematically eliminated though I'm not going take the time to figure out which ones. Add them into the mix and the number of combos is larger yet.

Since calculating playoff odds involves more teams and games, the number of combinations of outcomes are even larger than with the #1 seed.

The Division title is somewhat easier, fewer teams and games. However, even the Lions are not mathematically eliminated. If Detroit ran the table to 9-6-1 and either GB or Min won their head-to-head while both of those teams lost all their other remaining games, the Lions win the Division. I'm not going to count up how many unique games the 4 division teams have left, but the number of combinations of outcomes would be a very large number still.

Then you need a program to go through all of those scenarios and combinations, apply tie breaker rules, and calcualate the percentages.

Give my regards to Mr. Cray. Alternatively, you could explain the assumptions that went into those calculations. Or don't. As far as I'm concerned, the possibilites are way to numerous, astronomical in fact, with 6 weeks to go to make any mathematical determination of the odds without making a bunch of assumptions.

What were those assumptions in the NFL Playoff Machine? We don't know. Does it short cut through all the combinations and goes right to strength of schedule? Maybe. Who knows.

I may dislike black boxes as much as the 3 man pass rush. ;)
 
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Pokerbrat2000

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Whoever initially invented the playoff simulator didn't give a rats *** that it would force me to waste unnecessary time piddling with countless scenarios. ;)

Could be worse, you could have been born with 5 fingers and bottle of hand lotion. :coffee:
 
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HardRightEdge

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The New York Times has an excellent simulator. Not sure what all the parameters are, but it’s proven to be very accurate over the years.
Accurate with 6 games to go? I kinda doubt it was all that that accurate.

Here's the interesting thing about this season in the NFC. You have a bunch of teams clustered at the top with 8 and 9 wins, nobody with 7, two with 6, and two with 5. The hourglass shape of the standings suggests an utter loss of parity. The funny thing is to my eye none of these top 5 teams look like world beaters while the 5-5 and 6-4 teams look to my eye as close to or on par with top guys, they are in the hunt, and they have some games coming up against those top guys as they fight for their lives. With 6 games to go I would expect some surprises with weekly updates of some signifcance to the percentage odds by the various machines.

I mean it's kinda silly on its face when one machine says the Packers have a 45% chance of a first round bye with a win at SF, 5% with a loss while there is still five more weeks to go after than. The Packers could win to get that 45% and then lose the next week and see that % dump.

These things always look reasonable in the present, not so much when looking backward 6 weeks after Week 17.
 
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HardRightEdge

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Here's a question. Which would you rather see?

(1) A hard-fought game by both teams with playoff intensity. Mistakes by both teams are kept to a minimum. Both teams keep penalties to a minimum. Guys on both teams are making plays by virtue of their playmaking, not somebody else's mistakes. The Packers lose a close one.

(2) It's your typical up-and-down NFL game, lots of penalties, playmaking is as much the about the failures of the opponent as the skills of the guys making the plays. Garoppolo inexplicably throws a red zone pass to a flat-footed linebacker with no receiver in the vicinity (like he did in the AZ game), tipping the scales to a Packer win. I was watching some of that SF/AZ game and turned it off after just such a play. Why watch? Somebody is going to win on the other guy making too many mistakes. It was a bad football game. What's on Netflix? I will watch this one to the bitter end even if it is this kind of game but it doesn't mean I have to like it.

We have a pretty good idea what the machines would say. I, however, would say senario (1) bodes better for the remaining 5 games in the season and into the playoffs. Playing good football breeds more good football where the guys who are hitting on more cylinders down the stretch are the ones most likely to come out on top in the end whether that includes a first round bye or not.

May we have that uncommon, well-played football game.
 
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Funny thing. This was stated at the top of post #27, just above yours, which you "liked". Did you read it? ;)

As for the rest of post #27, if you don't like the percentages after Sunday night (or even if you do like them), just wait a week. They could be quite different, or the week after that, or the week after that....
I did “like” it. But I was so perplexed trying to figure out what a “TAM” was.., my A.D.D kicked in full throttle and I forgot everything I read. :roflmao:
 
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