NFC Norris Battle

[Deleted member 6794]

I think he was referring to the Bears. None the less...Stafford is the most overrated player in the NFC North. He's good not great. His record speaks for itself.

I don't consider Stafford an elite quarterback by any means but he's definitely a good one.

 

[PackAttack12]

I think it's a huge indictment of the Detroit Lions.

But that list is clearly incorrect. I've been told many times that the Packers can't beat the good teams.

Couldn't disagree more. You put any of the elite quarterbacks in football on the Detroit Lions the past several seasons, and the results are different. Stafford is supposedly an elite quarterback? Certainly being paid like one. Look towards the bottom of that list. How many elite quarterbacks do you see?

Big time quarterbacks are supposed to have a higher winning percentage than that against good teams.

 

[MichiganSportsTalk]

I understand that 2013 is a long time ago........The Lions haven't proven to be capable of winning big games since Stafford became their starter

I know 2013 is a long time ago, but lets go back even further?? What an odd argument to make. How about something more relevant.

Not including playoffs, since 2015 (the year JBC became OC mid-season) the Lions are 19-17 (Packers 23-13). Since 2016 they are 12-8 (Packers 13-7). Had Stafford not torn the ligaments in his middle finger on this throwing hand, who knows how 2016 ends.

Yes, the Lions have a terrible history. Yes, they rarely end a season strong. But you cannot deny that things are quite obviously trending up for them. Bob Quinn is clearly trying to build a winning team and change the entire atmosphere in Detroit. I'm not saying that Detroit is better than Green Bay, but to deny that Quinn is succeeding in his plan is simply willful ignorance.

 

[Dantés]

Couldn't disagree more. You put any of the elite quarterbacks in football on the Detroit Lions the past several seasons, and the results are different. Stafford is supposedly an elite quarterback? Certainly being paid like one. Look towards the bottom of that list. How many elite quarterbacks do you see?

Big time quarterbacks are supposed to have a higher winning percentage than that against good teams.

That's craziness.

Ok... you put any of the handful of "elite" QB's on any team, and that team improves. I never called Stafford "elite." But he is very good. And that roster has been pretty bad for a while. He's been far and away the best thing they've had going for them.

If you replace him with a replacement-level (average) QB, that team is a 2-4 win outfit.

But I think it's generally dumb that QB's, as opposed to every other single player on a roster, are judged individually by wins. It may be the most important position, but football is the ultimate team game. Drew Brees has a winning % of 44 for the last three straight seasons, but I don't think anyone is arguing that he's a below average player.

 

[PackerDNA]

But I think it's generally dumb that QB's, as opposed to every other single player on a roster, are judged individually by wins. It may be the most important position, but football is the ultimate team game. Drew Brees has a winning % of 44 for the last three straight seasons, but I don't think anyone is arguing that he's a below average player.

This.
Bingo.

 

[gbgary]

The bottom part of that list is a huge indictment on Matthew Stafford.

but...wins and losses isn't a qb stat. it's more of an indictment on coaching and the gen mgr.

 

[AmishMafia]

Yes, the Lions have a terrible history. Yes, they rarely end a season strong. But you cannot deny that things are quite obviously trending up for them. Bob Quinn is clearly trying to build a winning team and change the entire atmosphere in Detroit. I'm not saying that Detroit is better than Green Bay, but to deny that Quinn is succeeding in his plan is simply willful ignorance.

Yes, and my sister has lost 30 lbs and is trending up in the hot body rating. She is still over 380 lbs and has skin like a rhino, but as I said, she is trending up.

 

[I asked LT to delete my acct]

Yes, and my sister has lost 30 lbs and is trending up in the hot body rating. She is still over 380 lbs and has skin like a rhino, but as I said, she is trending up.

Dead man walking....we got a dead man walking here....dead man walking !!!

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Yes, the Lions have a terrible history. Yes, they rarely end a season strong. But you cannot deny that things are quite obviously trending up for them. Bob Quinn is clearly trying to build a winning team and change the entire atmosphere in Detroit. I'm not saying that Detroit is better than Green Bay, but to deny that Quinn is succeeding in his plan is simply willful ignorance.

Once again, the Lions blew a two game lead after week 14 for the division crown and lost in the first round of the playoffs once again last season. You might believe things are trending up for your team but in my opinion I don't consider them currently to be on a level with the Packers.

 

[PackAttack12]

That's craziness.

Ok... you put any of the handful of "elite" QB's on any team, and that team improves. I never called Stafford "elite." But he is very good. And that roster has been pretty bad for a while. He's been far and away the best thing they've had going for them.

If you replace him with a replacement-level (average) QB, that team is a 2-4 win outfit.

But I think it's generally dumb that QB's, as opposed to every other single player on a roster, are judged individually by wins. It may be the most important position, but football is the ultimate team game. Drew Brees has a winning % of 44 for the last three straight seasons, but I don't think anyone is arguing that he's a below average player.

Oh please. Yeah, football is the ultimate team game, I get it. But quarterback is the most important position in all of team sports. Even if you don't believe Stafford is elite, he's very good. So lets say he's 2nd tier. Elite would be Brady, Rodgers, Brees? I don't think another quarterback belongs in that class. And Stafford talent wise is every bit as good as quarterbacks outside of those three. Maybe I missed one or two that would qualify.

So he's every bit of a top 5-10 quarterback in the league.

That being said, these are the bottom 10 teams on the winning % list that captain provided by starting quarterbacks during that time span:

Browns - musical quarterbacks - no sense even mentioning
Jaguars - Chad Henne, Blaine Gabbert, David Garrard, Blake Bortles recently
Buccaneers - Freeman, Glennon, Luke McCown, Jameis Winston recently
Bills - Ryan Fitzpatrick, Trent Edwards, EJ Manuel, Kyle Orton, Tyrod Taylor recently
Titans - Vince Young, Kerry Collins, Matt Hasselbeck, Jake Locker, Ryan Fitzpatrick, Zach Mettenberger, Charlie Whitehurst, Marcus Mariota recently
Bears - Jay bleeping Cutler, with a few occasional starters due to injury. Mike Glennon.
Jets - Butt fumble Sanchez, Geno Smith!, Ryan Fitzpatrick, Josh McCown
Rams - Marc Bulger, Sam Bradford, Kellen Clemens, Austin Davis, Shaun Hill, Nick Foles, Case Keenum, Jared Goff
Redskins (admittedly better) - Jason Campbell, Donovan McNabb, Rex Grossman, RGIII, Kirk Cousins

Note that the 10th worst team on the list has double the wins the Lions have had.

Now, how many of those quarterbacks are better than Matthew Stafford? An old Donovan McNabb? Sam Bradford? Kirk Cousins? Those are probably your best bets. Mariota and Winston are still young and getting acclimated. Taylor's okay.

Now you look at Matthew Stafford. Unlike all of these teams, the Lions have had one constant at quarterback since the beginning of the 2011 season. Stafford hasn't missed a game since the 2010 season. You mean to tell me that all these other teams have had better talent than Stafford? How many of those teams had Calvin Johnson in his prime? Stafford has even had a defense that finished in the top half of the league 3 out of the past 4 seasons. Early on, admittedly his defenses weren't that good, but he couldn't overcome that more than 7 times in 8+ seasons?

Again, I understand that a quarterback can't do everything. It's why Rodgers only has one Super Bowl. But if you think Stafford couldn't be more competitive against winning teams than the teams in the above list, I'm not sure what to tell you.

In fairness, to your point, Stafford has done a lot for the Detroit Lions. And it's a franchise that simply isn't known for winning and he's established if nothing else at least a respectable culture to that team. But he's had enough around him to produce better results against good teams.

Even if you look at the entire bottom half of the 32 team list, the only other name quarterbacks are Eli Manning and Cam Newton. Cam has had one outstanding season and Eli has led the league in interceptions thrown more than once or twice. Stafford is a better quarterback than both.

Any time you are tied with the Cleveland Browns in anything, it's bad.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Oh please. Yeah, football is the ultimate team game, I get it. But quarterback is the most important position in all of team sports. Even if you don't believe Stafford is elite, he's very good. So lets say he's 2nd tier. Elite would be Brady, Rodgers, Brees? I don't think another quarterback belongs in that class. And Stafford talent wise is every bit as good as quarterbacks outside of those three. Maybe I missed one or two that would qualify.

So he's every bit of a top 5-10 quarterback in the league.

That being said, these are the bottom 10 teams on the winning % list that captain provided by starting quarterbacks during that time span:

Browns - musical quarterbacks - no sense even mentioning
Jaguars - Chad Henne, Blaine Gabbert, David Garrard, Blake Bortles recently
Buccaneers - Freeman, Glennon, Luke McCown, Jameis Winston recently
Bills - Ryan Fitzpatrick, Trent Edwards, EJ Manuel, Kyle Orton, Tyrod Taylor recently
Titans - Vince Young, Kerry Collins, Matt Hasselbeck, Jake Locker, Ryan Fitzpatrick, Zach Mettenberger, Charlie Whitehurst, Marcus Mariota recently
Bears - Jay bleeping Cutler, with a few occasional starters due to injury. Mike Glennon.
Jets - Butt fumble Sanchez, Geno Smith!, Ryan Fitzpatrick, Josh McCown
Rams - Marc Bulger, Sam Bradford, Kellen Clemens, Austin Davis, Shaun Hill, Nick Foles, Case Keenum, Jared Goff
Redskins (admittedly better) - Jason Campbell, Donovan McNabb, Rex Grossman, RGIII, Kirk Cousins

Note that the 10th worst team on the list has double the wins the Lions have had.

Now, how many of those quarterbacks are better than Matthew Stafford? An old Donovan McNabb? Sam Bradford? Kirk Cousins? Those are probably your best bets. Mariota and Winston are still young and getting acclimated. Taylor's okay.

Now you look at Matthew Stafford. Unlike all of these teams, the Lions have had one constant at quarterback since the beginning of the 2011 season. Stafford hasn't missed a game since the 2010 season. You mean to tell me that all these other teams have had better talent than Stafford? How many of those teams had Calvin Johnson in his prime? Stafford has even had a defense that finished in the top half of the league 3 out of the past 4 seasons. Early on, admittedly his defenses weren't that good, but he couldn't overcome that more than 7 times in 8+ seasons?

Again, I understand that a quarterback can't do everything. It's why Rodgers only has one Super Bowl. But if you think Stafford couldn't be more competitive against winning teams than the teams in the above list, I'm not sure what to tell you.

In fairness, to your point, Stafford has done a lot for the Detroit Lions. And it's a franchise that simply isn't known for winning and he's established if nothing else at least a respectable culture to that team. But he's had enough around him to produce better results against good teams.

Even if you look at the entire bottom half of the 32 team list, the only other name quarterbacks are Eli Manning and Cam Newton. Cam has had one outstanding season and Eli has led the league in interceptions thrown more than once or twice. Stafford is a better quarterback than both.

Any time you are tied with the Cleveland Browns in anything, it's bad.

Another thing to consider when discussing about this topic is that the Lions actually have the fifth best winning record in games against teams that didn't finish above .500 over the same period for whatever reason.

 

[MichiganSportsTalk]

Once again, the Lions blew a two game lead after week 14 for the division crown and lost in the first round of the playoffs once again last season.

Once again, you ignore the fact that Stafford had torn ligaments in his middle finger on his throwing hand for those final 3 games. It's not like we lost a receiver and it was next man up. The one guy who makes things click in Detroit had a significant injury on his throwing hand.

You might believe things are trending up for your team but in my opinion I don't consider them currently to be on a level with the Packers.

Those two things have nothing to do with each other. It is a factual statement to say things are trending up for the Lions compared to years past. As far as them not being on the Packers' level, I agree with you.

 

[swhitset]

Once again, you ignore the fact that Stafford had torn ligaments in his middle finger on his throwing hand for those final 3 games. It's not like we lost a receiver and it was next man up. The one guy who makes things click in Detroit had a significant injury on his throwing hand.



Those two things have nothing to do with each other. It is a factual statement to say things are trending up for the Lions compared to years past. As far as them not being on the Packers' level, I agree with you.

I agree with your second point. However, you keep mentioning Stafford's injury last year. I think you are overstating its signifigance. Stafford did not appear to be affected by the injury, and I even recall an interview at the end of the season where he said as much. Is it possible that it affected him more than he let on? Sure, but based on the throws he was making, I don't think we can state it definitively.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

It is a factual statement to say things are trending up for the Lions compared to years past.

That's where I disagree with you as long as the Lions don't prove it to be true.

 

[Dantés]

Oh please. Yeah, football is the ultimate team game, I get it. But quarterback is the most important position in all of team sports. Even if you don't believe Stafford is elite, he's very good. So lets say he's 2nd tier. Elite would be Brady, Rodgers, Brees? I don't think another quarterback belongs in that class. And Stafford talent wise is every bit as good as quarterbacks outside of those three. Maybe I missed one or two that would qualify.

So he's every bit of a top 5-10 quarterback in the league.

That being said, these are the bottom 10 teams on the winning % list that captain provided by starting quarterbacks during that time span:

Browns - musical quarterbacks - no sense even mentioning
Jaguars - Chad Henne, Blaine Gabbert, David Garrard, Blake Bortles recently
Buccaneers - Freeman, Glennon, Luke McCown, Jameis Winston recently
Bills - Ryan Fitzpatrick, Trent Edwards, EJ Manuel, Kyle Orton, Tyrod Taylor recently
Titans - Vince Young, Kerry Collins, Matt Hasselbeck, Jake Locker, Ryan Fitzpatrick, Zach Mettenberger, Charlie Whitehurst, Marcus Mariota recently
Bears - Jay bleeping Cutler, with a few occasional starters due to injury. Mike Glennon.
Jets - Butt fumble Sanchez, Geno Smith!, Ryan Fitzpatrick, Josh McCown
Rams - Marc Bulger, Sam Bradford, Kellen Clemens, Austin Davis, Shaun Hill, Nick Foles, Case Keenum, Jared Goff
Redskins (admittedly better) - Jason Campbell, Donovan McNabb, Rex Grossman, RGIII, Kirk Cousins

Note that the 10th worst team on the list has double the wins the Lions have had.

Now, how many of those quarterbacks are better than Matthew Stafford? An old Donovan McNabb? Sam Bradford? Kirk Cousins? Those are probably your best bets. Mariota and Winston are still young and getting acclimated. Taylor's okay.

Now you look at Matthew Stafford. Unlike all of these teams, the Lions have had one constant at quarterback since the beginning of the 2011 season. Stafford hasn't missed a game since the 2010 season. You mean to tell me that all these other teams have had better talent than Stafford? How many of those teams had Calvin Johnson in his prime? Stafford has even had a defense that finished in the top half of the league 3 out of the past 4 seasons. Early on, admittedly his defenses weren't that good, but he couldn't overcome that more than 7 times in 8+ seasons?

Again, I understand that a quarterback can't do everything. It's why Rodgers only has one Super Bowl. But if you think Stafford couldn't be more competitive against winning teams than the teams in the above list, I'm not sure what to tell you.

In fairness, to your point, Stafford has done a lot for the Detroit Lions. And it's a franchise that simply isn't known for winning and he's established if nothing else at least a respectable culture to that team. But he's had enough around him to produce better results against good teams.

Even if you look at the entire bottom half of the 32 team list, the only other name quarterbacks are Eli Manning and Cam Newton. Cam has had one outstanding season and Eli has led the league in interceptions thrown more than once or twice. Stafford is a better quarterback than both.

Any time you are tied with the Cleveland Browns in anything, it's bad.

I'm not saying it isn't bad, I'm just saying it's a team stat. If you want to say that it's an indictment of Stafford in that he plays the most important position on the team, then fine. But in general, I object to using wins or losses as QB stats. We don't do that for any other positions.

I'm totally sure than Stafford has had plenty to do with that bad stat. But he's not alone. The entire team is responsible for that outcome.

 

[906Fan]

I think Stafford is elite, but I also think the Lions are better at coming from behind than they are at holding a lead.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

I think Stafford is elite, but I also think the Lions are better at coming from behind than they are at holding a lead.

The Lions are 38-14 (.731) when entering the fourth quarter with a lead since Stafford became their starter in 2009 while having only won 17 out of 70 games (.243) trailing with 15 minutes left in the game.

 

[swhitset]

The Lions are 38-14 (.731) when entering the fourth quarter with a lead since Stafford became their starter in 2009 while having only won 17 out of 70 games (.243) trailing with 15 minutes left in the game.

The last stat is interesting ... but I'm curious how that compares to other teams that trail at the beginning of the 4 th quarter?

 

[Deleted member 6794]

The last stat is interesting ... but I'm curious how that compares to other teams that trail at the beginning of the 4 th quarter?

Interestingly the Lions actually rank sixth in the league in that category since 2009 behind only the Patriots, Cowboys, Broncos, Cardinals and Packers.

 

[gbgary]

I think Stafford is elite, but I also think the Lions are better at coming from behind than they are at holding a lead.

that's was their thing last year. it was pretty amazing. but that was last year. it's a new year and a new team. i agree stafford is in the elite catagory (the lower end of it but elite not the less). i think they'll be our biggest challenger in the division now that cook is out in min.

 

[bigbubbatd]

that's was their thing last year. it was pretty amazing. but that was last year. it's a new year and a new team. i agree stafford is in the elite catagory (the lower end of it but elite not the less). i think they'll be our biggest challenger in the division now that cook is out in min.

Considering the Lions were beating the Vikings in Minnesota whike Cook was still playing I would said the lions have been the biggest challenger the whole time

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Considering the Lions were beating the Vikings in Minnesota whike Cook was still playing I would said the lions have been the biggest challenger the whole time

FWIW Cook didn't play the entire game vs. the Lions though leaving early in the third quarter with a season ending knee injury.

 

[bigbubbatd]

FWIW Cook didn't play the entire game vs. the Lions though leaving early in the third quarter with a season ending knee injury.

That is why i said were beating. Although I realize I was wrong as Detroit was down 1 at the time of the cook injury.

 

[Raptorman]

That is why i said were beating. Although I realize I was wrong as Detroit was down 1 at the time of the cook injury.

Detroit had one drive greater than 35 yards the whole game. And that one ended in a field goal. The other two scoring drives were 29 yards each. And both after fumbles. One (Cooks) which was not forced. But yeah, Detroit kicked the Vikings butt.

 

[OldSchool101]

Yes, and my sister has lost 30 lbs and is trending up in the hot body rating. She is still over 380 lbs and has skin like a rhino, but as I said, she is trending up.

The real question is... Does she like Cam or eat Dannon Yogurt??