Midseason Assessment

[longtimefan]

Maybe those collarbone injures are catching up with him? Arthritis? Maybe all those years of throwing for 4,000 yards wore the arm out? Maybe that one chick from those movies still has his balls in her purse?

Or maybe he just won’t admit thumb is really bad

 

[gopkrs]

The thumb was no reason not to see Deguara in the friggin middle of the field with no pressure and a big empty lane right to the receiver. He's not really going through his progressions.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

We aren't in a typical situation with a rookie contract QB - most organizations see a first rounder play by their second season or third...in the world we live I'll take three games over none any day to know. I fear that is a coin flip decision which yet again could be a costly one for the organization...don't pick it up and Love turns into something elsewhere folks will be PISSED, pick it up and like Savage he flops....folks will be PISSED.

The Packers put themselves in that situation by using a first rounder on Rodgers successor too early though.

I don't disagree that we'll be needing to add a WR (multiple, really) but I also wouldn't expect it to happen given our other needs. For better or for worse (for worse, at the moment) our FO does not value the WR position as highly as other teams do and I'm pretty confident if they've been unwilling to expend premium draft capital on a weapon for Rodgers then I suspect they won't suddenly about-face for Love (or whoever it may be)

I hope the front office finally realized that even an elite quarterback can't make up for a complete lack of talent at wide receiver. That would be even more true for a first year starter.

I cannot help but think of a future 2023 Corps that would have MVS still here, with Doubs, Watson, Amari, Toure and Lazard if we somehow managed to keep him as well. I actually LIKE that group especially given a full year of this forged by fire time 2022 seems to be for us.

I wouldn't feel confident in that group entering 2023 at all.

If 3 games isn't enough to evaluate him how is less than 3 games enough to call him a bust?

I'm definitely not calling Love a bust.

Literally playing behind the league MVP - of course he hasn't had an impact.

That's all you need to know why selecting Love was a terrible decision in the first place.

Can’t afford to make any splash moves and you constantly have to keep trying to improve trough the draft. Tbh the Packers have been rebuilding since the SB.

It seems you and I have a completely different understanding of the meaning of a rebuild.

 

[tynimiller]

The Packers put themselves in that situation by using a first rounder on Rodgers successor too early though.



I hope the front office finally realized that even an elite quarterback can't make up for a complete lack of talent at wide receiver. That would be even more true for a first year starter.



I wouldn't feel confident in that group entering 2023 at all.



I'm definitely not calling Love a bust.



That's all you need to know why selecting Love was a terrible decision in the first place.



It seems you and I have a completely different understanding of the meaning of a rebuild.

The discussion isn’t about was Love the right pick folks, the question is specifically knowing enough to pick up the fifth year option. LET THE PICK ISSUE GO! No one is defending the pick, at least I know I’m not

 

[Krabs]

Can’t afford to make any splash moves and you constantly have to keep trying to improve trough the draft. Tbh the Packers have been rebuilding since the SB.

It all depends on what you consider a rebuild. Every team is always trying to improve their roster. The average career is 3.5 years. When a team finds a player that can make a 2nd contract they try to hold onto them. Personally, I don't think that a team should give 3rd contracts unless they are an all pro and I still think a team really has to do a deep dive into the research before doing that. If you mean a true rebuild in terms of blowing up the roster I have to disagree. A team doesn't consistently make the playoffs, get the #1 seed and make NFC Championship games if they have been rebuilding since 2010.

My midseason assessment still remains at this season being over. I wish they would have moved some contracts and been sellers at the deadline. I look for this roster to be blown up at the end of the season. The Packers are now well on their way to the black hole of the lower level teams. Doormat, if you will, of the NFC. I don't like thinking that way, but I'm also a realist.

 

[MadCat]

The thumb was no reason not to see Deguara in the friggin middle of the field with no pressure and a big empty lane right to the receiver. He's not really going through his progressions.

Watch the last few minutes of yesterday’s locker room interview. He addressed that play I believe.

 

[Magooch]

I have no problem with you calling the Love pick a wasted pick, I agreed with that the second the pick was made and still feel that way, but I do have an issue with anyone calling him a bust.

Perhaps "bust" is not the most accurate way of describing it. I guess it's the player vs. the pick. I wouldn't call Love (the player) a "bust" yet, but I do think that it's fair to say *the pick* has been a "bust" for the Green Bay Packers thus far. As before, there's still certainly the possibility that things do end up working out and he becomes a key player for us but that's not been the case thus far, of course.

So call it whatever you want. Bust, flop, disappointment, wasted pick, etc. I'm not trying to get too particular about the verbiage but ultimately my point was that it's okay to simultaneously hold that starting a handful of games this season won't be enough to adequately assess whether or not we should pick up his option while also being of the opinion that the limited appearances he's had for us would thus far suggest the pick was a flop, bust, etc (Again, the pick, not the player. I think there's a distinction).

 

[Magooch]

I hope the front office finally realized that even an elite quarterback can't make up for a complete lack of talent at wide receiver. That would be even more true for a first year starter.

I would like to think that's the case but at the same time I wouldn't be surprised if they took the opposite approach.

Like, we're not going to invest heavily in the offense while it's a strength of ours, while we've already got a great established QB in place - let's double-down and invest more heavily in the defense or something and not have to rely on our new-QB offense much anyways.

I don't know if I've really worded that in a sensible way and it's not the approach I'd take but hopefully you get the idea.

 

[OldSchool101]

I don't think those two things are necessarily in conflict with each other.

On one hand, we're in Love's third season and he's more or less had no impact yet. Maybe there is still a chance that he pans out into a great player (and I hope that is the case) but I don't think it's a huge stretch to call a first round pick with virtually no meaningful minutes in three years a bust. If anything, it's not "He's only played in three games, how is that enough to call him a bust?" but rather "A first round pick who's only played in three games in three years can probably be called a bust until he proves otherwise".

On the other hand we all know that we have to make a decision on Love's ~20m option by May of '23. If he only plays three games this season, is that (combined with what we have seen so far) enough to really get a good idea as to whether or not we should pick up his option? I'd say it's not.

So really it's more like "Love has shown us virtually nothing in three years - why would three more games be enough for us to decide whether to pick up his option or not?"

And I say that as someone who has nothing against Love. It's not the pick I would have made but I understood the reasoning. I hope things work out for him, and I would also hope to see him get some significant minutes this season, but at the same time I don't think it's unfair to put him in the "Bust" camp so far (with the caveat that he could perhaps break out of that at some point) and I don't think it's contradictory to hold that stance while also saying that a few limited games at the end of the year might not be enough to inform our decision on picking up his 5th year option or not.

Crummy spot to be in.

True. I don’t consider a late Day 1 draft selection who has never had a chance to start a bust. That term is normally reserved for someone with high expectations (early Round 1) that highly underperformed in a decent sample size or was constantly in legal trouble etc.. Love doesn’t fit that criteria imo.

I could see how the draft pick in general could be deemed a bust (team wise) if they never get any production.

 

[rmontro]

True. I don’t consider a late Day 1 draft selection who has never had a chance to start a bust.

Look, I agree with you. But playing devil's advocate for a moment, you could say he's never earned the chance to start, and therefore is a bust. But you can hardly hold it against someone for not being able to earn the spot against a HOF quarterback coming off back to back MVP seasons.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

The discussion isn’t about was Love the right pick folks, the question is specifically knowing enough to pick up the fifth year option. LET THE PICK ISSUE GO! No one is defending the pick, at least I know I’m not

There are a lot of posters who still defend the selection of Love. In my opinion, even if he ends up starting a few games this season it's likely the Packers won't have enough information about him to make an educated guess on picking up the fifth year option.

Like, we're not going to invest heavily in the offense while it's a strength of ours, while we've already got a great established QB in place - let's double-down and invest more heavily in the defense or something and not have to rely on our new-QB offense much anyways.

It would be borderline stupid to not surround a first year starting quarterback with more talent at pass catcher than the Packers did with Rodgers this season. Even with a great defense he would have close to no chance of succeeding. With that being said I'm not sure the team's front office agrees with my take.

True. I don’t consider a late Day 1 draft selection who has never had a chance to start a bust. That term is normally reserved for someone with high expectations (early Round 1) that highly underperformed in a decent sample size or was constantly in legal trouble etc.. Love doesn’t fit that criteria imo.

The Packers definitely had high expectations for Love. Otherwise they wouldn't have spent a first rounder on him with a HOF starter on the roster.

 

[PackAttack12]

There are a lot of posters who still defend the selection of Love.

You are, unfortunately, correct.

Otherwise they wouldn't have spent a first rounder on him with a HOF starter on the roster.

...and a 4th!!!!

 

[longtimefan]

The discussion isn’t about was Love the right pick folks, the question is specifically knowing enough to pick up the fifth year option. LET THE PICK ISSUE GO! No one is defending the pick, at least I know I’m not

Can we stop the love ****?

We had a thread and people couldn't be civil on it

He is the back up ..After Rodgers play tonight, Love will still be the back up..

I swear, I will suspend people over the constant Love debate

They traded up and drafted him

End of story

 

[PackAttack12]

Can we stop the love ****?

We had a thread and people cpuldnt be civil on it

He is the back up

After Rodgers tonight Love will still be the back up..

I swear, I will suspend people over the constant Love debate

They traded up and drafted him

End of story

I understand what you're trying to do. I really do.

But respectfully, there's no escaping discussion of it. It's a massive topic of discussion and frankly, the more hot discussion on this forum, the better. That's the whole essence of what we're logging in for. The more discussion, the more engagement. More people signing up to discuss.

You can obviously do what you wish. But the Love debate is one that should be had. Why would anyone discourage it?

 

[longtimefan]

I understand what you're trying to do. I really do.

But respectfully, there's no escaping discussion of it. It's a massive topic of discussion and frankly, the more hot discussion on this forum, the better. That's the whole essence of what we're logging in for. The more discussion, the more engagement. More people signing up to discuss.

You can obviously do what you wish. But the Love debate is one that should be had. Why would anyone discourage it?

We had it..people started name calling and started to disrespect each other.

Not what it should be like

 

[tynimiller]

Can we stop the love ****?

We had a thread and people couldn't be civil on it

He is the back up ..After Rodgers play tonight, Love will still be the back up..

I swear, I will suspend people over the constant Love debate

They traded up and drafted him

End of story

I literally said the point of the discussion was his 5th year option - the drafting of him was discussed a ton elsewhere and no doubt will occur again.

You're going to ban or suspend folks merely because they say let's discuss a team decision of 5th year option on Love and NOT his drafting?

 

[tynimiller]

I understand what you're trying to do. I really do.

But respectfully, there's no escaping discussion of it. It's a massive topic of discussion and frankly, the more hot discussion on this forum, the better. That's the whole essence of what we're logging in for. The more discussion, the more engagement. More people signing up to discuss.

You can obviously do what you wish. But the Love debate is one that should be had. Why would anyone discourage it?

100% percent with this, now I will say the discussion just comments up which apparently got LTF mad at me was about just the 5th year option discussion and not Love draft pick discussion...but I agree. It is a BIG discussion for the organization and fan base to have until he is no longer on the team....just like Amari Rodgers....the contract extension handcuffing of Aaron Rodgers.....every personnel discussion is up for grabs or should be on a Packer fan discussion forum.

 

[longtimefan]

100% percent with this, now I will say the discussion just comments up which apparently got LTF mad at me was about just the 5th year option discussion and not Love draft pick discussion...but I agree. It is a BIG discussion for the organization and fan base to have until he is no longer on the team....just like Amari Rodgers....the contract extension handcuffing of Aaron Rodgers.....every personnel discussion is up for grabs or should be on a Packer fan discussion forum.

Its the constant we traded up to grab him that ends up being debated over and over and over and over and over

 

[gopkrs]

It would be borderline stupid to not surround a first year starting quarterback with more talent at pass catcher than the Packers did with Rodgers this season. Even with a great defense he would have close to no chance of succeeding. With that being said I'm not sure the team's front office agrees with my take.

I don't either. The QBs best friends are on the O line imho. And you can't expect them all to stay healthy all year. Nor to always have 3rd, 4th or 5th rounders able to come in and play. So even if the O line is good; I don't mind at all spending a first or second rounder on another one. Tackle or guard.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

I don't either. The QBs best friends are on the O line imho. And you can't expect them all to stay healthy all year. Nor to always have 3rd, 4th or 5th rounders able to come in and play. So even if the O line is good; I don't mind at all spending a first or second rounder on another one. Tackle or guard.

I agree it's important to have a good offensive line but in my opinion a first year starter would definitely need an improve receiving corps to succeed as well.

 

[OldSchool101]

I understand what you're trying to do. I really do.

But respectfully, there's no escaping discussion of it. It's a massive topic of discussion and frankly, the more hot discussion on this forum, the better. That's the whole essence of what we're logging in for. The more discussion, the more engagement. More people signing up to discuss.

You can obviously do what you wish. But the Love debate is one that should be had. Why would anyone discourage it?

I agree with you. I also say he was a great selection! (Ducking so as not to get blindside-smacked across the head!).

Hopefully our QB2 will get some playing time, it’s such a weird scenario him being in GB. He really got a raw deal having to put up with this crap. Best case is he shows a little improvement and tweaks some interest from a couple other teams and we recoup some capital in an exchange after the season is over.
(either player or draft selection).
Think the Brett Hundley trade but a smidge better collateral.

 

[Kahless]

The Packers are 3-5 and 8 games into this disappointing season. Here are some thoughts/questions.

1. The offensive line is the biggest factor rendering this offense and passing game ineffective. It's stunning how poorly they've played. There are the obvious injury factors to consider. One also wonders if they miss Stenavich in the OL Coach role. Until they improve, the offense will not make serious strides.

2. The pass catching options are not the root cause of the passing woes, but they exacerbate it. Just as a good secondary can make a defensive front look good by covering longer and forcing a QB to hold the ball, so good receivers can make an offensive front look good by getting open quickly and allowing the QB to get rid of the ball.

3. Rodgers is showing some signs this year of both decline (albeit not major) and his old tendencies of cowboying the offensive gameplan.

4. The defense has been, by far, the biggest disappointment on the year. They play soft, stupid football. They clearly are not being coached well. There are zero excuses. The personnel ingredients are all there. This is made a more bitter pill by the fact that the other candidate for the job, Ejiro Evero, is coaching a lesser group into the #2 scoring defense in the league.

5. Despite everything, if the offensive line can improve over the back half, I still think it's in the realm of possibility that the Packers make a push towards double digit wins and get in the mix for a WC spot.

There is so much wrong with this team, but I will LIMIT my comments to just 6 observations/comments - mostly negative, but some positive:


1) Sadly, after making a commitment to drafting offensive lineman over a number of drafts (which I believe is they key to football success), it turns out that, unfortunately, a number of poor picks were made. Additionally, sadly, Bakhtiari's and Jenkins' injuries have clearly left them as not the players they were, but the fact is, that no one can play forever. Still, watching that loss to the Giants in London was painful. The Packers O-Line coach, Butkis, made absolutely no adjustments against the Giant's twists. The Offensive line was utterly befuddled and collapsed.

2) I fundamentally really like Matt Lafleur, but his defense of Defensive Coordinator Joe Barry is downright painful all the time. Quite frankly, it is hard to believe they could stoop lower than Dom Capers or Mike Pettine, but somehow they managed. An NFL team giving up roughly 400 yards rushing is utterly unprecedented. Either your coordinator is inept, or your players are hopeless, or both. But it can't be neither. LaFleur can insist we're all in this together. Well ok, but then we will all LOSE together. From what I can gather, Joe Barry believes he wins if he doesn't give up 60-yard TD passes. However, he is very content to give up 4, 15-yard passes, or let his run defense give up 5-10 yards at a clip and stay on the field for 10 minutes per drive. That works real well later in the game when the other team's offensive has such a time on the field advantage, by Q3, Q4, the defense can barely stand.

3) Green Bay apparently only cares about how fast DBs are in the 40 when they make draft picks, coverage skills are irrelevant . That said, the fact is none of the the guys they have ever look at the QB/ball. In the end, the QB is either running down field 10 or 20 yards before any of them even realize it's not a pass, or they are committing pass interference at the last second because they have no idea what's going on. They have wasted so many early round picks on DBs over the last 5-10 years, it is ridiculous. Two, three years later, these guys are out of football, and the team is scrambling to pick up guys off the waiver wire. I admit there is a systemic coaching issue with DBs, probably from HS on, that favors speed overfootbal acumen, so the fact is, DBs are a complete crapshoot in the draft, more so than most other positions. It's a waste to draft them early. GB has made this mistake over and over.

4) Since his injury, Tonyan is clearly no longer the player he was. Dequara, though he never proved himself like Tonyan, sadly, also after his injury, is clearly not an NFL calibre player. Lewis is finished.

5) Gary's injury was a very tough, and a sad loss. This guy was really developing into a star. Before he got hurt, his 2022 motor simply did not stop!

6) Knew the moment I saw Christian Watson college highlights, this guy had big potential. Very happy how things are developing with him.

I could go on, but will stop here.


For many years now, having almost always been "in it," Packer fans have been spoiled.

There may have to be many lean years ahead to correct the deficiencies. That said, the head coach, or the management for that matter, has to at least recognize that there are issues.

It can happen. We have gone through this before.


Thanks

 

[Pugger]

Some folks are criticizing MLF for coming to Berry's defense but what else is gonna say publicly? He really can't throw his DC under the bus to the media. I will say, however, if Matt keeps Berry after this season I'll be calling for our HC's head instead. This defense with the players we have shouldn't be this terrible.

 

[OldSchool101]

in 34 targets and 4 Rushes, #9 has scored 7 TD’s. Only 4 Packer Rookies in GBP history have more.

1952 Billy Howton 12 Starts -13TD’s
2013 Eddie Lacey 15 Starts -11TD’s;
(679 snaps)
1954 Max McGee 12 Starts- 9 TD’s
1980 Gerry Ellis 13 Starts- 8TD’s
2022 C. Watson 6 Starts. -7TD’s
(269 snaps)
2005 Samson Gado 5 Starts -7TD’s

 

[milani]

There is so much wrong with this team, but I will LIMIT my comments to just 6 observations/comments - mostly negative, but some positive:


1) Sadly, after making a commitment to drafting offensive lineman over a number of drafts (which I believe is they key to football success), it turns out that, unfortunately, a number of poor picks were made. Additionally, sadly, Bakhtiari's and Jenkins' injuries have clearly left them as not the players they were, but the fact is, that no one can play forever. Still, watching that loss to the Giants in London was painful. The Packers O-Line coach, Butkis, made absolutely no adjustments against the Giant's twists. The Offensive line was utterly befuddled and collapsed.

2) I fundamentally really like Matt Lafleur, but his defense of Defensive Coordinator Joe Barry is downright painful all the time. Quite frankly, it is hard to believe they could stoop lower than Dom Capers or Mike Pettine, but somehow they managed. An NFL team giving up roughly 400 yards rushing is utterly unprecedented. Either your coordinator is inept, or your players are hopeless, or both. But it can't be neither. LaFleur can insist we're all in this together. Well ok, but then we will all LOSE together. From what I can gather, Joe Barry believes he wins if he doesn't give up 60-yard TD passes. However, he is very content to give up 4, 15-yard passes, or let his run defense give up 5-10 yards at a clip and stay on the field for 10 minutes per drive. That works real well later in the game when the other team's offensive has such a time on the field advantage, by Q3, Q4, the defense can barely stand.

3) Green Bay apparently only cares about how fast DBs are in the 40 when they make draft picks, coverage skills are irrelevant . That said, the fact is none of the the guys they have ever look at the QB/ball. In the end, the QB is either running down field 10 or 20 yards before any of them even realize it's not a pass, or they are committing pass interference at the last second because they have no idea what's going on. They have wasted so many early round picks on DBs over the last 5-10 years, it is ridiculous. Two, three years later, these guys are out of football, and the team is scrambling to pick up guys off the waiver wire. I admit there is a systemic coaching issue with DBs, probably from HS on, that favors speed overfootbal acumen, so the fact is, DBs are a complete crapshoot in the draft, more so than most other positions. It's a waste to draft them early. GB has made this mistake over and over.

4) Since his injury, Tonyan is clearly no longer the player he was. Dequara, though he never proved himself like Tonyan, sadly, also after his injury, is clearly not an NFL calibre player. Lewis is finished.

5) Gary's injury was a very tough, and a sad loss. This guy was really developing into a star. Before he got hurt, his 2022 motor simply did not stop!

6) Knew the moment I saw Christian Watson college highlights, this guy had big potential. Very happy how things are developing with him.

I could go on, but will stop here.


For many years now, having almost always been "in it," Packer fans have been spoiled.

There may have to be many lean years ahead to correct the deficiencies. That said, the head coach, or the management for that matter, has to at least recognize that there are issues.

It can happen. We have gone through this before.


Thanks

At this point I think in the off season we get a new DC, implement a 4-3, and get stout with that front 4. We have lost too many games in the trenches for not just this year but for the last 10 or 12.