Josh Jones wants out of Green Bay.....

[Dantés]

I guess you have no facts to support that claim.

Lol... Captain, if you're incapable of seeing or admitting that front offices almost universally give more leash to their own acquisitions compared to those of the previous regime, no amount of examples will help you.

 

[gopkrs]

I think Randall and HaHa were different situations. We had a new staff coming in and they wanted to clean up some areas they felt were not strong enough. We should let the chips fall for Jones and watch for awhile because I don't think we could get anything for him at this point. What's the rush?

 

[HardRightEdge]

Lol... Captain, if you're incapable of seeing or admitting that front offices almost universally give more leash to their own acquisitions compared to those of the previous regime, no amount of examples will help you.

That's the way it should have been expressed in the first place. When you have a coach going from talking about "second year jumps" to "second or third year jumps" in the face of underperforming drafts, as was the case with McCarthy, it starts to look like wishful thinking, or the more fancy term, "confirmation bias".

I believe a new regime is likely to look at incumbent players more objectively than the prior one. However, the regime can fall prey to their own confirmation biases, overvaluing and overprojecting their own guys over those of the prior regime just because they are their guys.

It is probably worth noting that an internal hire like Gutekunst is different from an external hire. As a scout, he might have been banging the table for some of the holdover guys. Conversely, he might have argued against certain picks that Thompson made anyway. In this case, your argument is closer to half right.

 

[Dantés]

That's the way it should have been expressed in the first place. When you have a coach going from talking about "second year jumps" to "second or third year jumps" in the face of underperforming drafts, as was the case with McCarthy, it starts to look like wishful thinking, or the more fancy term, "confirmation bias".

I believe a new regime is likely to look at incumbent players more objectively than the prior one. However, the regime can fall prey to their own confirmation biases, overvaluing and overprojecting their own guys over those of the prior regime just because they are their guys.

It is probably worth noting that an internal hire like Gutekunst is different from an external hire. As a scout, he might have been banging the table for some of the holdover guys. Conversely, he might have argued against certain picks that Thompson made anyway. In this case, your argument is closer to half right.

I wasn't saying anything different in the first place.

 

[HardRightEdge]

I wasn't saying anything different in the first place.

It's a matter of emphasis. You had said at one point the new guys give their own guys more opportunities. I see it more as not giving the old guys more oppotunities than they deserve.

 

[Dantés]

It's a matter of emphasis. You had said at one point the new guys give their own guys more opportunities. I see it more as not giving the old guys more oppotunities than they deserve.

Oof. Alrighty then.

 

[GreenBaySlacker]

Its never a good sign when a player believes he is not being used properly.... And feels strongly enough about it to quit....

Coaches aren't always right. Communication is weak in the world now days.

 

[GreenNGold_81]

Its never a good sign when a player believes he is not being used properly.... And feels strongly enough about it to quit....

Coaches aren't always right. Communication is weak in the world now days.

I think it's more that he has given up before even trying to compete. You earn an opportunity by making plays - if you don't make plays... you don't play! It's that simple. Jones has to come out and compete his butt off to make the field - by not competing, he's probably no going to amount to anything even on a new team. His value is tanked right now, so if I'm Gute I don't entertain this option at all.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Anybody who wants out this badly because he does not like his diminished role should be accomodated. Taking the approach you and others have suggested says, in affect, other guys who want out just as badly should keep it to themselves. I'd want to know who they are and would try to accomodate them. A guy in a similar situation would be Fackrell, with Smith, Smith and Gary jumping ahead of him on the depth chart. If Jones was traded or cut fine-free, thereby emboldening Fackrell to a "me too" moment, I'd oblige him as well.

Now, we can't expect anybody to be "Packers, do or die". It's a business, so goes the cliche. I'm sure there are a lot of guys on the roster who are playing for that second contract, wherever it might land them, which is what this is about, Jones wanting to be where he can get those needed snaps. But if a guy publicly demands to be traded and then doesn't show up, he has made clear he doesn't want to "do his job". You don't want those guys around. Letting them be around so you can fine them and then cut them is, as I said earlier, simply spite and a deterrent that smells like fear: "If that's the way you feel, don't embarrass me. I don't want to know about it." That's no way to run a railroad.

It's really a no win situation created by Jones. I'd take the high ground which is "team first, do your job".

We've heard a lot about accountability in the last couple of years. I think it started with the Randall incident. His tantrum was a public affront to the coaches and "do your job". It probably wasn't his first incident that could be attributed to a "crime of passion" in the heat of the battle. The players leadership council, by whatever name they give it, recommended Randall be traded. McCarthy and Thompson opted for damage control because of lack of options on the roster, whatever trouble he might cause or failure to do his job is better than the next man up. That was a mistake.

Gutekunst didn't waste much time in trading Randall. He didn't bother waiting around for the draft to see if he could land a replacement. That would have been lame. As soon an Clinton-Dix did his "I don't think I'm not going to be here next year" routine, a public expression that he was not happy playing without an extention, he got traded faster than his head could spin.

If what we want is accountability and not trying to bury discontent through some kind of deterrent threat, then Gutekunst should trade him or cut bait at the earliest opportunity.

While I agree the Packers should think hard about allowing Jones in the locker room again I don't see any reason to release him as long as he doesn't show up.

Lol... Captain, if you're incapable of seeing or admitting that front offices almost universally give more leash to their own acquisitions compared to those of the previous regime, no amount of examples will help you.

One example would be a start.

 

[Favre>Rodgers259]

Excellent points by @HardRightEdge and @captainWIMM.

I think the "leash" as @Dantés might describe it is more "neutral" in a sense as Gute was an internal hire. I could be wrong but I doubt Thompson made very many picks where all or most of the scouts were decidedly against him, so Gute may or may not have been comfortable when Jones' name was called. Unfortunately we'll never know most likely.

But Gute has all the chips in his corner with this situation. If Jones misses mandatory mini camp, he gets fined and loses money. If he misses training camp, even more money. (I'll let @HardRightEdge do the honors if we want to get into specifics). So by Jones not showing up, Gute improves his bottom line (albeit by not very much but every bit counts right?), and he gets a better idea about how capable these new S signings will be. Thanks to the new rule where teams go from 90 to 53 on August 31st, Gute has pretty much until Week 1 to find a trade partner for Jones. Like someone said before, the injury bug will strike as expected, and then Gute, who's continually shown his acumen to cut a deal can send Jones packing. If not, Jones can simply get cut Aug 31st, and if he never showed up at all this summer Gute pocketed some extra cash with the fines; it's a win-win.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

But Gute has all the chips in his corner with this situation. If Jones misses mandatory mini camp, he gets fined and loses money. If he misses training camp, even more money. (I'll let @HardRightEdge do the honors if we want to get into specifics). So by Jones not showing up, Gute improves his bottom line (albeit by not very much but every bit counts right?), and he gets a better idea about how capable these new S signings will be. Thanks to the new rule where teams go from 90 to 53 on August 31st, Gute has pretty much until Week 1 to find a trade partner for Jones. Like someone said before, the injury bug will strike as expected, and then Gute, who's continually shown his acumen to cut a deal can send Jones packing. If not, Jones can simply get cut Aug 31st, and if he never showed up at all this summer Gute pocketed some extra cash with the fines; it's a win-win.

I highly doubt Jones will not show up for mandatory minicamp and especially to training camp as he would lose a significant portion of his base salary by even missing only one of those days. It seems he doesn't want to compete for a job with the Packers, therefore the team shouldn't allow him to be a cancer in the locker room and get rid of him as soon as he decides to step foot on the practice field.

 

[GreenBaySlacker]

I think it's more that he has given up before even trying to compete. You earn an opportunity by making plays - if you don't make plays... you don't play! It's that simple. Jones has to come out and compete his butt off to make the field - by not competing, he's probably no going to amount to anything even on a new team. His value is tanked right now, so if I'm Gute I don't entertain this option at all.

I don't disagree.....
But sometimes teams and coaches put players out of position. Expect them to do things they never did before. And what they did before make them college stars and NFL players..... So you take an aggressive player and make him play back. He isn't going to like it.... And after two years. Getting effectively replaced by a huge draft pick. And told he isnt doing well enough to play. When he feels he has been not played properly....

Could be he has enough backbone to stand up to the system and say... Let me go. I will show you....

Dumb young dude move of course. They will send him to raiders to become a final roster cut. And be hitting Craigslist up for jobs a few years later....
Or he will go there and make us all look like we dont know chit about dbacks... Like some others have.....

 

[Deleted member 6794]

I don't disagree.....
But sometimes teams and coaches put players out of position. Expect them to do things they never did before. And what they did before make them college stars and NFL players..... So you take an aggressive player and make him play back. He isn't going to like it.... And after two years. Getting effectively replaced by a huge draft pick. And told he isnt doing well enough to play. When he feels he has been not played properly....

Jones has received enough chances over the past two seasons to show the coaching staff as well as the front office that they can rely on him. Unfortunately he hasn't been able to live up to expectations while playing more than 1,200 snaps though.

 

[OldSchool101]

Josh Jones is not immune to being human. Meaning we need to give one another more latitude when we make mistakes and not immediately pile on.

Nobody was calling out Josh as a cancer two weeks ago because we never heard anything like this in the over 2 years he’s been in GB.
As of right now he’s missed some preliminary practices. That’s all. Time is on the Packers side and we never know. He could just bail out all together. He could also recommit himself and maybe that’s exactly what he needs to spark his career. It be nice to see him learn from this and benefit type GBP.
Right now it’s still early.
He’s a grown man, let’s give him a little space and let him find his way. He a 2 year employee, not a rook. He’s earned that much dignity for now. Time will always be on our side for decision making. We’ve just lost a couple of the most committed players in GB history this offseason. Maybe he thinks about it and is man enough to admit he’s wrong.
Let’s just be patient, it’s not like teams are giving us competing offers right now.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Josh Jones is not immune to being human. Meaning we need to give one another more latitude when we make mistakes and not immediately pile on.

Nobody was calling out Josh as a cancer two weeks ago because we never heard anything like this in the over 2 years he’s been in GB.
As of right now he’s missed some preliminary practices. That’s all.

Jones demanding a trade tells me he will complain instead of trying to improve whenever things don't go his way. It's time to move on from him.

 

[Favre>Rodgers259]

I too think it's unfair to label Jones as a "Cancer" or "problem player" because he's requesting a trade. This is just a business.

1. Jones inspired no confidence in his rookie year under Capers.

2. Jones inspired no confidence in his second year under Pettine with an entirely different scheme.

3. Gute drafts and signs two safeties in the offseason.

Jones is now entering his 3rd year where he clearly is at best a backup to either Savage or Amos. As a former 2nd Round Pick, he obviously isn't living up to expectations, and the front office has made decisions based on that.

Is it so wrong for him to request a fresh start somewhere else? Even if he turned the corner and played well this year, Amos and Savage obviously aren't going anywhere. Based on his history he's the odd man out. It is in his best interest(and most likely the Packers as well) to move on. If he struggled to build rapport with Pettine last year, and Pettine is pretty ecstatic about the new additions in the secondary, he's got quite the mountain to climb.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

I too think it's unfair to label Jones as a "Cancer" or "problem player" because he's requesting a trade. This is just a business.

1. Jones inspired no confidence in his rookie year under Capers.

2. Jones inspired no confidence in his second year under Pettine with an entirely different scheme.

3. Gute drafts and signs two safeties in the offseason.

Jones is now entering his 3rd year where he clearly is at best a backup to either Savage or Amos. As a former 2nd Round Pick, he obviously isn't living up to expectations, and the front office has made decisions based on that.

Is it so wrong for him to request a fresh start somewhere else? Even if he turned the corner and played well this year, Amos and Savage obviously aren't going anywhere. Based on his history he's the odd man out. It is in his best interest(and most likely the Packers as well) to move on. If he struggled to build rapport with Pettine last year, and Pettine is pretty ecstatic about the new additions in the secondary, he's got quite the mountain to climb.

Once again, Jones has been given every chance necessary to secure one of the starting spots at safety over the past two seasons. The Packers invested a ton of money to sign Amos as well as a first round pick to draft Savage because he didn't perform up to expectations.

Instead of trying to work ******* improving he quit on the team by demanding a trade. There's no room for players like that on the team in my opinion.

 

[HardRightEdge]

Or he will go there and make us all look like we dont know chit about dbacks... Like some others have.....

Hayward and Hyde, or even Tramon Williams when who had some nice seasons in Cleveland, were cap casualties, not perceived disappointments who flourished elsewhere. Randall was a reach in that he was drafted to play CB when he was a natural free safety evidenced by a pretty good season in his first NFL year at the position in Cleveland. If he hadn't blown himself up he might be the starting FS now in Green Bay with the #21 pick applied elsewhere.

Randall is the closest analog to Jones, not those other guys, drafted to play a position he was not best suited for with Jones now also blowing himself up. Still, despite his inconsistencies over his first 2 years, the Packers did not bring in guys clearly intended to put Randall on the bench.

Given Jones' cheap contact and situation, if he moves on to become a productive strong safety it will be a fairly unique situation. In fact, looking at inexpensive players with clean records attitude-wise that the Packers cut, you'd be hard pressed to find many who became success stories elsewhere. Lawrence Guy posted a 90.2 PFF grade in New England last season on a 50% snap count. Even so, he bounced around to a bunch of teams before finding a fit with Belichick in 2017, 5 years after the fact. I can't think of another similar situation of a cheap, clean player going on to play at a high level.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

IMO, Jones is what is fundamentally wrong with too many people in our Society. He is lucky enough to have an opportunity at a career that pays more than most, yet he think he deserves more. Yes, he probably earned his way to the NFL by being an outstanding athlete and putting in the hard work. However, that hard work doesn't just stop, you keep working hard and hope you move to the next level. Starting jobs in the NFL aren't just handed to people, they are earned and kept. I get his dilemma, he found himself in a situation where he feels he doesn't have a shot at being a starter, but there are approximately 65 other guys on each football roster right now that are in the same boat and 1000's of others not even on a team. Those lucky enough to be on a 90 man roster are showing up and competing to earn that job with a team they signed a contract with. Time for Jones to put his big boy pants on, put in the work, show how much he is willing to fight for a roster spot and see what happens. He may not like the fact that the decision is out of his control in regards to what team he is on, but welcome to how things are done in the NFL.

 

[thequick12]

I highly doubt Jones will not show up for mandatory minicamp and especially to training camp as he would lose a significant portion of his base salary by even missing only one of those days. It seems he doesn't want to compete for a job with the Packers, therefore the team shouldn't allow him to be a cancer in the locker room and get rid of him as soon as he decides to step foot on the practice field.

I don't like that Jones went public with this. The professional thing to have done no matter what your job is, is to have gone to your manager and voiced your frustrations to him/her. I guess perhaps Jones did that already, we have no way of knowing.

But it's clear that Jones is not in pettines plans for whatever reason, he must not think the player fits his scheme. The Packers used every option they could to keep Jones off the field last season. Brice, Whitehead, haha, greene. It wasn't until the first 3 had essentially been given up on that jones saw any significant time.

I personally still think he has the perfect skill set to excel in that money backer role that has become so popular across the league. And I think the only reason he hasn't thus far has been a failure by the coaches to put him in the proper position to excel.

It was the same thing with Randall, and Hyde before him. Both Randall and Hyde were safeties that the coaches played at cb and while they were good corners. Hyde left and turned in an all pro season as a safety. While Randall finished his first season back at safety for the browns in very solid fashion. 85 tackles and 4 ints.

If played in that lb role close to the line I think Jones could really impact the game. I feel like hes a 4 sack 2 int and a bunch of tackles player if played in that spot.

Now maybe Jones doesn't wanna be a money backer maybe he wants to be a traditional safety. If that's the case then ship him out but if he's willing to play the dime lb role then put him in that spot and let him make plays with his superior size and athletism

 

[Deleted member 6794]

But it's clear that Jones is not in pettines plans for whatever reason, he must not think the player fits his scheme. The Packers used every option they could to keep Jones off the field last season. Brice, Whitehead, haha, greene. It wasn't until the first 3 had essentially been given up on that jones saw any significant time.

Jones would have most likely been an injury to either Amos or Savage away from starting at one of the safety spots.

He was injured early last season, missing the first three games of the season because of it. After he was fully healthy at mid season he played 82.3% of the defensive snaps over the last nine games.

That doesn't sound like Pettine didn't give him any chances to grab one of the starting gigs.

I personally still think he has the perfect skill set to excel in that money backer role that has become so popular across the league. And I think the only reason he hasn't thus far has been a failure by the coaches to put him in the proper position to excel.

The reasons he hasn't excelled is that he doesn't have enough knowledge to successfully perform at a high level and obviously doesn't want to put in the work necessary to improve.

 

[thequick12]

The reasons he hasn't excelled is that he doesn't have enough knowledge to successfully perform at a high level and obviously doesn't want to put in the work necessary to improve.

You are correct he has proven to not be smart enough to handle the deep safety spot, making tons of assignment errors. Although previously it has taken Packers safeties who turned into all pros, til their 4th season to really get a grasp on the NFL game and have a breakout year. Which is worth noting.

I believe he has already shown he is indeed smart enough to handle that dime lb role. And he should be the starter in that spot as he is the best option for a play maker there. Burks should be his backup and be given a chance to compete for playing time.

Jones would have most likely been an injury to either Amos or Savage away from starting at one of the safety spots.

He was injured early last season, missing the first three games of the season because of it. After he was fully healthy at mid season he played 82.3% of the defensive snaps over the last nine games.

That doesn't sound like Pettine didn't give him any chances to grab one of the starting gigs./QUOTE]

First of all I believe Jones disputed how injured he really was, complaining about his playing time publicly well before the seasons midway point.

Also mid season was the point at which haha was traded, then Whitehead was released. And if I'm not mistaken brice was dealing with more injuries than Jones was. So did pettine really give him a chance ? Or did he only play him significantly after all other options had been exhausted? I think it's pretty clear he only played him once he had no other option left on the roster.

 

[Heyjoe4]

IMO, Jones is what is fundamentally wrong with too many people in our Society. He is lucky enough to have an opportunity at a career that pays more than most, yet he think he deserves more. Yes, he probably earned his way to the NFL by being an outstanding athlete and putting in the hard work. However, that hard work doesn't just stop, you keep working hard and hope you move to the next level. Starting jobs in the NFL aren't just handed to people, they are earned and kept. I get his dilemma, he found himself in a situation where he feels he doesn't have a shot at being a starter, but there are approximately 65 other guys on each football roster right now that are in the same boat and 1000's of others not even on a team. Those lucky enough to be on a 90 man roster are showing up and competing to earn that job with a team they signed a contract with. Time for Jones to put his big boy pants on, put in the work, show how much he is willing to fight for a roster spot and see what happens. He may not like the fact that the decision is out of his control in regards to what team he is on, but welcome to how things are done in the NFL.

Agreed. He didn’t play like a 2nd round pick the first two years, so Gluten and Pettine added players to the position group. Jones could have manned up and accepted the competition, or do what he did and demand a trade. Seems he feels entitled based on where he was drafted. Now everyone loses because the Packers have a player with no market value who wants to play somewhere else. Now he’s forced Gluten’s hand and will probably be traded or cut. And then what? Even if he finds another team, they’ll ask no more or no less than the Packers - compete for playing time. No one gets a pass. Seems like Jones doesn’t have much self awareness. And that’s a shame because with the new players, and weakness in the ILB group, Jones would have had a defined opportunity playing close to the LOS.

Everyone loses here.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

You are correct he has proven to not be smart enough to handle the deep safety spot, making tons of assignment errors. Although previously it has taken Packers safeties who turned into all pros, til their 4th season to really get a grasp on the NFL game and have a breakout year. Which is worth noting.

It would have been unrealistic to expect Jones to perform at All-Pro level during his first two seasons with the Packers but there's no doubt he hasn't lived up to expectations so far.

I believe he has already shown he is indeed smart enough to handle that dime lb role. And he should be the starter in that spot as he is the best option for a play maker there. Burks should be his backup and be given a chance to compete for playing time.

I agree Jones is best when lining up close to the LOS but he hasn't excelled in the dime linebacker role either. It's true that he should have been given a chance to compete for those snaps though.

That makes it even more mind-boggling that he didn't want to work for that job but rather demanded a trade.

First of all I believe Jones disputed how injured he really was, complaining about his playing time publicly well before the seasons midway point.

It seems there's a pattern with him complaining about things not going his way.

Also mid season was the point at which haha was traded, then Whitehead was released. And if I'm not mistaken brice was dealing with more injuries than Jones was. So did pettine really give him a chance ? Or did he only play him significantly after all other options had been exhausted? I think it's pretty clear he only played him once he had no other option left on the roster.

The bottom line being that Jones received a lot of playing time in the second half of last season but couldn't convince the coaching staff and front office he was up to the task.

Therefore it's no surprise the Packers improved the position this offseason.

 

[HardRightEdge]

I don't like that Jones went public with this. The professional thing to have done no matter what your job is, is to have gone to your manager and voiced your frustrations to him/her. I guess perhaps Jones did that already, we have no way of knowing.

I think it is a fair bet Jones' agent did just that already and that Jones or his agent leaked the demand with no action having been taken. You would not have LaFleur saying Gutekunst has the situation in hand or Williams calling him for a heart-to-heart if the demand was not real. Not showing up for voluntary minicamp where the competitive bar has been raised is simply confirmation and a tacit public statement.