Hyde and Hayward excelling

[kevans74]

Since leaving...

But how much is that just on scheme and Capers...

And how much of that is playing with MUCH BETTER front 7's with the Bills and Chargers


Outside of Daniels and Perry who else would realistically START on the Front 7 on a "good defense" in the NFL???

MAYBE Clay
MAYBE Blake Martinez
MAYBE Kenny Clark

 

[Poppa San]

Since leaving...

But how much is that just on scheme and Capers...

And how much of that is playing with MUCH BETTER front 7's with the Bills and Chargers


Outside of Daniels and Perry who else would realistically START on the Front 7 on a "good defense" in the NFL???

MAYBE Clay
MAYBE Blake Martinez
MAYBE Kenny Clark

You realize you listed 5 of the front 7 being debatably good enough to start on most front 7s in the league?

 

[Patriotplayer90]

I blame Capers.

 

[Carl 2]

Hyde was good when he was here too...

 

[easyk83]

Since leaving...

But how much is that just on scheme and Capers...

And how much of that is playing with MUCH BETTER front 7's with the Bills and Chargers


Outside of Daniels and Perry who else would realistically START on the Front 7 on a "good defense" in the NFL???

MAYBE Clay
MAYBE Blake Martinez
MAYBE Kenny Clark

Who is to say that a lot of players on our Defense wouldnt look better with a different staff?

 

[kevans74]

Who is to say that a lot of players on our Defense wouldnt look better with a different staff?

That or a different scheme???

Maybe go back to the 4-3?

I would presume that Daniels and Clark would be AWESOME as the 2 interior DTs

 

[adambr2]

That or a different scheme???

Maybe go back to the 4-3?

I would presume that Daniels and Clark would be AWESOME as the 2 interior DTs

If you're going back to a 4-3 you're dumping Dom for sure. No way would they keep him around to run a revamped system.

 

[adambr2]

I will say that for as much praise as seems to be lavished upon him by Packer coaches and writers every year, Joe Whitt seems pretty overrated as a CB coach.

We continuously invest heavily in the secondary every year and still manage to crank out a depth chart full of awful corners year after year. Doesn't help when guys who he has had years with go elsewhere and find more success than they had here. Don't really see what the big deal is with Whitt.

 

[kevans74]

If you're going back to a 4-3 you're dumping Dom for sure. No way would they keep him around to run a revamped system.

A few players would go too...

Clay wouldn't fit a 3-4, unless a situational rusher or situational RE.

Fackrell would fit a LE in a 4-3, Martinez/Ryan would be fine at ILB, Perry would be a good strongside OLB as he is fine against the run

Doesn't really solve the issue at cornerback though lol

 

[easyk83]

That or a different scheme???

Maybe go back to the 4-3?

I would presume that Daniels and Clark would be AWESOME as the 2 interior DTs

I'd rather just stick with the 34 but bring in a new DC and staff, maybe hold on to Darren Perry and maybe Tyrgo but that's it. A 43 would require a 2-3 year rebuilding process since we're missing a true SSDE and we're not sure if Perry could hold up with his hand in the dirt. I think either Ryan or Matthews could handle the SAM role but we'd likely need more players for the Mike and Will. IMHO why invest in a new scheme this late into Rodgers career? So you grab a new DC and hope it was Capers all along and not the players.

I think you just make a couple of small adjustments, namely start playing inside leverage if you're going to keep dropping back into two deep shells. Do that and I think that guys like Randall King and Hawkins will all look surprisingly better.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

I will say that for as much praise as seems to be lavished upon him by Packer coaches and writers every year, Joe Whitt seems pretty overrated as a CB coach.

We continuously invest heavily in the secondary every year and still manage to crank out a depth chart full of awful corners year after year. Doesn't help when guys who he has had years with go elsewhere and find more success than they had here. Don't really see what the big deal is with Whitt.

I've brought this up before as well and have usually been shot down by "he was responsible for Shields and Tramon Williams success". Time to look at what has he done for us lately? Currently, he has a group of guys (high draft resources with R & R) who still can't cover or tackle. Our CB's are often times lined up 10+ yards off of the line of scrimmage, as if to say "I will give you the easy 5 yards, but you aren't burning me deep". I saw this a few times yesterday. Keenum recognized the soft coverage and hit the WR right away 5 yards out. I would much rather see our CB's up on their men, don't let them have a free running start and if they get burned deep on occasion, so be it. But that is why you have safeties isn't it?

 

[rodell330]

Lol of course they are. This sorry scheme may be the reason why Randall and Rollins suck so bad. Maybe not, but there's a chance haha

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Will a new DC make things worse?

 

[XPack]

Joe Whitt seems pretty overrated as a CB coach.

Lombardi himself can't work magic with Randall and Rollins, tbh... far less poor Joe!

Our CB's are often times lined up 10+ yards off of the line of scrimmage, as if to say "I will give you the easy 5 yards, but you aren't burning me deep". I saw this a few times yesterday. Keenum recognized the soft coverage and hit the WR right away 5 yards out.

Well, they are going to give up yards, question is how much. Rather than a straight TD every play, at least we make them work more by forcing short throws. I'd definitely not gamble on Randall and Rollins playing man to man with any decent WR. Lesser of the two evils, I suppose.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Well, they are going to give up yards, question is how much. Rather than a straight TD every play, at least we make them work more by forcing short throws. I'd definitely not gamble on Randall and Rollins playing man to man with any decent WR. Lesser of the two evils, I suppose.

Good point on R & R not being able to play man to man bump and run type coverage. Hopefully Kevin King will continue to develop as that guy who can. The more I see of R & R, the less I like. It was one thing to get burned with bad coverage, but now Randall can't even seem to tackle. But when King, House and Burnett can't go, not much else you can do but play them both.

 

[adambr2]

Lombardi himself can't work magic with Randall and Rollins, tbh... far less poor Joe!



Well, they are going to give up yards, question is how much. Rather than a straight TD every play, at least we make them work more by forcing short throws. I'd definitely not gamble on Randall and Rollins playing man to man with any decent WR. Lesser of the two evils, I suppose.

Really? Because I hear constantly about how uber-talented Randall is, and coming out of college how massive Rollins' upside was.

Chicken and the egg argument yet again. It's hard to ever put any accountability on any coach whatsoever if you just assume that any player who doesn't perform just sucks. Either the coaching staff is doing a pretty inadequate job or Thompson is just cranking out bust after bust in the secondary. It can't be neither.

 

[XPack]

Really? Because I hear constantly about how uber-talented Randall is, and coming out of college how massive Rollins' upside was.

Chicken and the egg argument yet again. It's hard to ever put any accountability on any coach whatsoever if you just assume that any player who doesn't perform just sucks. Either the coaching staff is doing a pretty inadequate job or Thompson is just cranking out bust after bust in the secondary. It can't be neither.

Not sure what your point is in here.

I doubt you'd hear many talking about Randall's talent in here after last season. The belief is that since they're a significant draft investment, they get one more season to prove themselves.

The top 2 picks of 2016 draft are a bust. 2017 (KK & JJ) looks promising and far better.

The problem lies with TT (and MM) rebuilding strategy in letting secondary players walk in FA and depending on draft picks to replace them. Backfired horribly.

 

[AmishMafia]

Since leaving...

But how much is that just on scheme and Capers...

And how much of that is playing with MUCH BETTER front 7's with the Bills and Chargers


Outside of Daniels and Perry who else would realistically START on the Front 7 on a "good defense" in the NFL???

MAYBE Clay
MAYBE Blake Martinez
MAYBE Kenny Clark

If coaching or scheme were to blame for underperforming secondary, then logically the front 7 would also be underperforming.

You have to look at the bigger picture. To me this is clear evidence of underperformance due to coaching and not lack of talent.

 

[adambr2]

Not sure what your point is in here.

I doubt you'd hear many talking about Randall's talent in here after last season. The belief is that since they're a significant draft investment, they get one more season to prove themselves.

The top 2 picks of 2016 draft are a bust. 2017 (KK & JJ) looks promising and far better.

The problem lies with TT (and MM) rebuilding strategy in letting secondary players walk in FA and depending on draft picks to replace them. Backfired horribly.

Way too early to say the 2017 class looks better IMO, I think after the initial rookie seasons for Randall and Rollins, most were very high on both, but especially Randall. Those were 2015 rookies, not 2016. 2015 was promising, 2016 was a disaster. So what went wrong?

Everyone says now with the benefit of hindsight that we should have kept Hayward and Hyde, but these weren't special corners in Green Bay. There were some who wanted to keep them, but I don't recall many clamoring to offer them the money that they got from their respective new teams? What reason did we have to believe that Hayward was going to suddenly morph into a shutdown outside corner in his 5th year when he was mediocre in his 4th? Seems like a problem that could be related to coaching, does it not?

 

[XPack]

2016 was a disaster.

Why? Kenny Clark is a success till now, so is Blake Martinez. Spriggs, I withhold judgement for now...But calling the whole draft a bust is a bit extreme.

 

[kevans74]

Not sure what your point is in here.

I doubt you'd hear many talking about Randall's talent in here after last season. The belief is that since they're a significant draft investment, they get one more season to prove themselves.

The top 2 picks of 2016 draft are a bust. 2017 (KK & JJ) looks promising and far better.

The problem lies with TT (and MM) rebuilding strategy in letting secondary players walk in FA and depending on draft picks to replace them. Backfired horribly.

could be right...

Although Hayward was good his rookie year and injured in his second 2... I always wanted him back, especially since he was a 2nd round pick. You could say it was "expected" for him to become good

Hyde seemed to be getting it his

Why? Kenny Clark is a success till now, so is Blake Martinez. Spriggs, I withhold judgement for now...But calling the whole draft a bust is a bit extreme.

You're basing them off like what? 5 or 6 games? lol

Not being pessimistic, but REALISTIC... let's see if they can keep it up
They didn't show anything last season to warrant being successful

 

[XPack]

You're basing them off like what? 5 or 6 games? lol

Not being pessimistic, but REALISTIC... let's see if they can keep it up
They didn't show anything last season to warrant being successful

We can only go by what we have at hand. And based on what we've seen there's more to think Clark, Martinez, King and Jones to be a success than a bust.

But yeah, final verdict after this season.

 

[adambr2]

Why? Kenny Clark is a success till now, so is Blake Martinez. Spriggs, I withhold judgement for now...But calling the whole draft a bust is a bit extreme.

I wasn't referring to the 2016 draft at all. I was referring to the 2016 season for Randall and Rollins after a promising rookie 2015 season.

My mistake, I thought that was pretty apparent from the context I used it in when we were talking about our corners:
"Way too early to say the 2017 class looks better IMO, I think after the initial rookie seasons for Randall and Rollins, most were very high on both, but especially Randall. Those were 2015 rookies, not 2016. 2015 was promising, 2016 was a disaster. So what went wrong?"

 

[Deleted member 6794]

I doubt you'd hear many talking about Randall's talent in here after last season. The belief is that since they're a significant draft investment, they get one more season to prove themselves.

The problem lies with TT (and MM) rebuilding strategy in letting secondary players walk in FA and depending on draft picks to replace them. Backfired horribly.

There were a lot of posters around here solely blaming Randall's struggles last season on him being injured. Once again it seems fans have a hard time understanding that it's not smart to sign backups to deals averaging several millions per season with the salary cap in place.

You have to look at the bigger picture. To me this is clear evidence of underperformance due to coaching and not lack of talent.

I truly believe that as long as the Packers hold on to both Thompson and Capers there's no way to fairly evaluate who is mostly to blame for the defensive shortcomings.

Why? Kenny Clark is a success till now, so is Blake Martinez. Spriggs, I withhold judgement for now...But calling the whole draft a bust is a bit extreme.

It's definitely true that it's bogus to call the 2016 draft a bust but I don't have a lot of hope that Spriggs turns into a decent offensive line anytime soon.

Although Hayward was good his rookie year and injured in his second 2... I always wanted him back, especially since he was a 2nd round pick. You could say it was "expected" for him to become good

They didn't show anything last season to warrant being successful

After four seasons with a team the draft position doesn't factor into the decision to either re-sign a player or let him walk away in free agency. Packers fans have to realize that Hayward didn't perform close to an elite level with the Packers for most of his time in Green Bay for whatever reason.

Clark definitely performed at a high level during the second half of his rookie season.

We can only go by what we have at hand. And based on what we've seen there's more to think Clark, Martinez, King and Jones to be a success than a bust.

But yeah, final verdict after this season.

It's way too early to make a final verdict on these players after the 2017 season as well.

 

[easyk83]

In regards to 2016 if we picked up 3 quality starters out of it it was a good but not great draft. 15 is looking pretty rough right now with what looks to be a group of failures and backups.