Fire Joe Barry -- Updated -- he's gone

[easyk83]

A lot of of fans wanted the last 2 DC's fired, and many are already calling for the head of Barry. That being said, is the reason for our sub-par defense because of the DC's or lack of good defensive players?

I mean if you were going to argue that it was strictly the players then Im not sure Id use Barry as an example. He came in on thin ice after swiftly failing in his last two stints and he looked like a flunky hiring, whose only qualification was him being MLFs buddy.

 

[milani]

That 2008 season was a 6-10 team. 2 of the wins were against an 0-16 Lion team. The defense was on the field a lot in Rodgers first year as a starter as well whereas the 2007 team was better defensively and the team went 13-3.

 

[Sunshinepacker]

Wimm subscribes to the idea that it was a lack of talent bedeviling Capers, but he ignores that despite the offense receiving a minority of the overall draft picks and really not receiving any first round selections after Derek Sherrod in 2011 that for some strange reason superb talent was developed out of that limited pool of offensive draft picks. David Bakhtiari went on to become arguably the best LT in the league and became the first Packer since Forrest Gregg to receive 5 All American nods. Davante Adams is if not the best wide receiver in the league the second best. Corey Linsley became an All Pro Center. Aaron Jones is widely regarded as a top 5 running back.

Then you have the merely effective offensive players drafted like:

Eddie Lacy, Jamaal Williams, Randall Cobb and JC Tretter among others.

For some bizarre reason the FO forgot how to draft, but only routinely failed when drafting defensive players.

The REALITY is that FOs and Sports journalists refer to draft and DEVELOPMENT for a reason. Drafting is only part of the equation, the other part is what a coaching staff does with its players.

It's not hard to understand WHY the front office forgot how to draft when you take a second to understand that the FO loses a lot of talent when THREE of the main FO guys are hired to GM other teams.

And, to your point, it's also not tough to see if it was just development by looking to see which players went on to excel elsewhere. I think TT's worst mistake with defensive personnel was his absolutely insanely stupid decision to let Hayward go to the Chargers for $5m a year.

 

[easyk83]

It's not hard to understand WHY the front office forgot how to draft when you take a second to understand that the FO loses a lot of talent when THREE of the main FO guys are hired to GM other teams.

And, to your point, it's also not tough to see if it was just development by looking to see which players went on to excel elsewhere. I think TT's worst mistake with defensive personnel was his absolutely insanely stupid decision to let Hayward go to the Chargers for $5m a year.

So then how do you explain why the offensive staff was much more successful with less? Why was Thompson a better judge of talent when it came to retaining offensive players?

As for Heyward, he was a better fit as a cover 2 zone corner and was at his best with his eyes in the backfield. Why couldnt Capers mix in more zone concepts to utilize someone like Heyward? As for Hyde, again why wasn't he tried at Safety earlier in his tenure with the Packers?

Heyward didnt look like a great player when he left GB and neither did Hyde. That both were much more effective elsewhere speaks to scheme and almost certainly to coaching. Coaching is not just about teaching players, its also about making adjustments to put players in a better position to succeed.

 

[mradtke66]

Some of these questions are easy

As for Heyward, he was a better fit as a cover 2 zone corner and was at his best with his eyes in the backfield. Why couldnt Capers mix in more zone concepts to utilize someone like Heyward?

Sam Shields was a better player and a man to man corner. Ergo, they played mostly man concepts. We didn't lose Sam to concussions until the year Casey was already playing for the Chargers.

As for Hyde, again why wasn't he tried at Safety earlier in his tenure with the Packers?

At the time, we had HaHa and Burnett. Both of whom looked better at the time.

 

[milani]

So then how do you explain why the offensive staff was much more successful with less? Why was Thompson a better judge of talent when it came to retaining offensive players?

As for Heyward, he was a better fit as a cover 2 zone corner and was at his best with his eyes in the backfield. Why couldnt Capers mix in more zone concepts to utilize someone like Heyward? As for Hyde, again why wasn't he tried at Safety earlier in his tenure with the Packers?

Heyward didnt look like a great player when he left GB and neither did Hyde. That both were much more effective elsewhere speaks to scheme and almost certainly to coaching. Coaching is not just about teaching players, its also about making adjustments to put players in a better position to succeed.

Pretty much all the time those players were here our DL did not get it done even with the Clay maker. A secondary can look pretty good when its front four stops the run and gets to the passer. Our offense on the other hand had a HOF QB. And Thompson had one before this one. But I believe Thompson's greatest blunder was in 2005 when he chose not to sign either Mike Wahle or Marco Rivera at guard and then did not draft any top guard to replace either. Instead he picked up two stiffs and ruined any chance we had that year.

 

[Mondio]

Lots of context is ignored or forgotten when looking back. Hayward was a fine player. He was also a heavily injured player. he was great his rookie year, post season reports on 2 rookies we had at the end of Haywards time here were pretty good too. They both ended up flopping, but everyone knew that would happen at the time...

Hyde was a fine football player here, he's fine with the Bills. I think his worth is inflated a bit by a very fast start once leaving here, but I think he's pretty much a more experienced version of what we had here too is all. But as was mentioned. We had our safety we invested in and we had the young up and comer on a rookie contract coming of a pro bowl i believe.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

is the reason for our sub-par defense because of the DC's or lack of good defensive players?

I'm going to say "Both".

The Defense supposedly has some top talent in...K. Clark, Z. Smith, J. Alexander and Amos. Hard to argue that those 4 guys wouldn't be starters for any other team. Then add in P. Smith, Gary and Savage and you have 3 more guys who would probably crack the starting lineup with quite a few teams. Beyond those 7 starters, yes the Packers are weak with having to start Lowery, Keke, Barnes, Campbell and King.

All that said, it is still way too early to grade the job that Joe Barry is doing. The defense came around in the 4th Q. last night, but I think some of that was the team they were playing too.

I still feel the Packers made a mistake in not playing most of their starters during the preseason, but we will see if the rust is actually off on the offense in the next 2 games, as well as if the Defense is actually coming together under Barry.

I will leave the "Is Kenny Clark playing up to his contract?" debate out of this, but am I the only one that heard, several times, that Rashan Gary was virtually unblockable in all of the camps leading up to preseason? I haven't seen that guy either.

 

[XPack]

Didn't really see anything that excited me to this D. Our Inside D is still crap.

 

[milani]

Lots of context is ignored or forgotten when looking back. Hayward was a fine player. He was also a heavily injured player. he was great his rookie year, post season reports on 2 rookies we had at the end of Haywards time here were pretty good too. They both ended up flopping, but everyone knew that would happen at the time...

Hyde was a fine football player here, he's fine with the Bills. I think his worth is inflated a bit by a very fast start once leaving here, but I think he's pretty much a more experienced version of what we had here too is all. But as was mentioned. We had our safety we invested in and we had the young up and comer on a rookie contract coming of a pro bowl i believe.

If he would have held on to that Kaepernick throw he may have altered his legacy.

 

[TEXPAC2]

Saints offense getting stopped by a no talent Panther team. Nail in Joe Barry's coffin.

Are you going to at least give them a mild attaboy?

 

[Sanguine camper]

The defense has been poor because the mediocre players like King and Keke have been bad and some of the supposedly good players like Gary and Savage have been disappointing so far. I don't think Joe Barry was ready for so many players coming out of the blocks so poorly. Perhaps no preseason action caused the rust. The scary thing is the lack of pass rush when 4 guys go after the qb. Blitzes helped get some pass rush last night but if you can't get a pass rush with 4 guys in the NFL, you are going to give up a lot of big plays and have a long season.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

The defense has been poor because the mediocre players like King and Keke have been bad and some of the supposedly good players like Gary and Savage have been disappointing so far. I don't think Joe Barry was ready for so many players coming out of the blocks so poorly. Perhaps no preseason action caused the rust. The scary thing is the lack of pass rush when 4 guys go after the qb. Blitzes helped get some pass rush last night but if you can't get a pass rush with 4 guys in the NFL, you are going to give up a lot of big plays and have a long season.

I think within your statement lies a lot of the problems with the Defense. Guys are underperforming, I would add Clark to your list. Guys aren't stepping up and its a new DC with a new scheme. With the exception of Campbell and now Z. Dog being out, its basically the same 10 guys starting that Pettine had last year. They weren't the best group either, so to expect miracles of Joe Barry this quickly out, is probably asking too much.

Turnovers are big too and last night the Packers defense took the ball away once, previous week, zero. Helps that the offense also didn't turn over the ball and put the defense right back out there on a short field.

This Packer defense really has nowhere to go but up and I think as Stokes plays more, Z Dog gets back and maybe a D-Lineman steps up or we pick up a new player, it will improve. Finally, sure helps the defense when the offense can do something, I think we saw that in the 2nd half last night.

 

[milani]

I think within your statement lies a lot of the problems with the Defense. Guys are underperforming, I would add Clark to your list. Guys aren't stepping up and its a new DC with a new scheme. With the exception of Campbell and now Z. Dog being out, its basically the same 10 guys starting that Pettine had last year. They weren't the best group either, so to expect miracles of Joe Barry this quickly out, is probably asking too much.

Turnovers are big too and last night the Packers defense took the ball away once, previous week, zero. Helps that the offense also didn't turn over the ball and put the defense right back out there on a short field.

This Packer defense really has nowhere to go but up and I think as Stokes plays more, Z Dog gets back and maybe a D-Lineman steps up or we pick up a new player, it will improve. Finally, sure helps the defense when the offense can do something, I think we saw that in the 2nd half last night.

And really the INT came at garbage time. Had the game been closer Goff is not so desperate. Of course the fumble was alk Goff. Not us.

 

[WFT_DCfan]

As a skins fan, i know how awful Joe Barry was. His coverages dont make any sense

 

[adambr2]

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[adambr2]

Always a great sign when your DC needs to be told by his HC how to do his job and make adjustments.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

A lot of of fans wanted the last 2 DC's fired, and many are already calling for the head of Barry. That being said, is the reason for our sub-par defense because of the DC's or lack of good defensive players?

I believe it's a combination of both.

Wimm subscribes to the idea that it was a lack of talent bedeviling Capers, but he ignores that despite the offense receiving a minority of the overall draft picks and really not receiving any first round selections after Derek Sherrod in 2011 that for some strange reason superb talent was developed out of that limited pool of offensive draft picks. David Bakhtiari went on to become arguably the best LT in the league and became the first Packer since Forrest Gregg to receive 5 All American nods. Davante Adams is if not the best wide receiver in the league the second best. Corey Linsley became an All Pro Center. Aaron Jones is widely regarded as a top 5 running back.

Then you have the merely effective offensive players drafted like:

Eddie Lacy, Jamaal Williams, Randall Cobb and JC Tretter among others.

For some bizarre reason the FO forgot how to draft, but only routinely failed when drafting defensive players.

The REALITY is that FOs and Sports journalists refer to draft and DEVELOPMENT for a reason. Drafting is only part of the equation, the other part is what a coaching staff does with its players.

The Packers having had success drafting offensive players doesn't automatically mean the defensive coordinators were the ones to blame for the unit struggling.

How many of the defensive players drafted in the first three rounds since 2012 (Nick Perry, Jerel Worthy, Casey Hayward, Datone Jones, Ha Ha Clinton-Dix, Khyri Thornton, Damarius Randall, Quinten Rollins, Kyler Fackrell, Josh Jones, Montravius Adams, Josh Jackson) have excelled playing for other teams???

There aren't a whole lot, meaning the Packers actually struggled to acquire talent on that side of the ball.

That 2008 season was a 6-10 team. 2 of the wins were against an 0-16 Lion team. The defense was on the field a lot in Rodgers first year as a starter as well whereas the 2007 team was better defensively and the team went 13-3.

FYI the Packers ranked fifth in points scored in 2008 with Rodgers starting for the first time.

But I believe Thompson's greatest blunder was in 2005 when he chose not to sign either Mike Wahle or Marco Rivera at guard and then did not draft any top guard to replace either. Instead he picked up two stiffs and ruined any chance we had that year.

The Packers didn't have enough cap space to retain Rivera and Wahle in 2005. Thompson did a great job rebuilding the roster in a short time to make the Packers a contender only two years later.

 

[Sunshinepacker]

So then how do you explain why the offensive staff was much more successful with less? Why was Thompson a better judge of talent when it came to retaining offensive players?

As for Heyward, he was a better fit as a cover 2 zone corner and was at his best with his eyes in the backfield. Why couldnt Capers mix in more zone concepts to utilize someone like Heyward? As for Hyde, again why wasn't he tried at Safety earlier in his tenure with the Packers?

Heyward didnt look like a great player when he left GB and neither did Hyde. That both were much more effective elsewhere speaks to scheme and almost certainly to coaching. Coaching is not just about teaching players, its also about making adjustments to put players in a better position to succeed.

Aaron Rodgers.

Heyward was VERY good with the packers, he was just hurt for two seasons.

 

[gopkrs]

Always a great sign when your DC needs to be told by his HC how to do his job and make adjustments.

I remember La Fleur calling a time out so Pettine would not rush 3. I think La Fleur was right in both instances so...keep it up. I guess sometimes it's hard for D coordinators to see past their own scheme. Shouldn't be but...

 

[Wi. Mike now in Florida]

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Imagine our head coach telling his Defensive C. when and why to make adjustments.
Get his @ss out of there, we are REALLY in deep shlt

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

I remember La Fleur calling a time out so Pettine would not rush 3. I think La Fleur was right in both instances so...keep it up. I guess sometimes it's hard for D coordinators to see past their own scheme. Shouldn't be but...

Imagine our head coach telling his Defensive C. when and why to make adjustments.
Get his @ss out of there, we are REALLY in deep shlt

I bet if they asked him too, Rodgers could coach the defense much better.

 

[Sunshinepacker]

Lots of context is ignored or forgotten when looking back. Hayward was a fine player. He was also a heavily injured player. he was great his rookie year, post season reports on 2 rookies we had at the end of Haywards time here were pretty good too. They both ended up flopping, but everyone knew that would happen at the time...

Hyde was a fine football player here, he's fine with the Bills. I think his worth is inflated a bit by a very fast start once leaving here, but I think he's pretty much a more experienced version of what we had here too is all. But as was mentioned. We had our safety we invested in and we had the young up and comer on a rookie contract coming of a pro bowl i believe.

Heyward signed for $5m a year which was an extraordinary value for a corner that had shown his skill (he should have been defensive rookie of the year AND his final year he played outside corner VERY well). Letting him walk was a terrible idea. Hyde I can understand, the Packers had other guys on the team that they thought would replace him.

 

[Sunshinepacker]

I remember La Fleur calling a time out so Pettine would not rush 3. I think La Fleur was right in both instances so...keep it up. I guess sometimes it's hard for D coordinators to see past their own scheme. Shouldn't be but...

I really hope the current guy can learn to see past the scheme that he has used in the past to consistently coach the worst defenses in the NFL.

 

[OldSchool101]

A lot of of fans wanted the last 2 DC's fired, and many are already calling for the head of Barry. That being said, is the reason for our sub-par defense because of the DC's or lack of good defensive players?

I’m going to say some of both. imo I see 1 great player in Clark backed by 2 below average players inside DL. Also I just don’t think a DC comes in and instantly takes a team to top 5 level. I think any major impact inside the first Quarter season (4-5 contests) is presumptive when concerning a 1st year DC.

We have to consider Barry wouldn’t be here unless the previous D crew had significant issues. Then factor in his player additions and subtractions. Thus far, you’ve basically got Stokes, but take away Z Smith (no offense to Eric but he’s not Z’ talent level yet) You’ve acquired Campbell in place of Kirksey (so far that is a +). You add Slaton who’s used sparingly and you’ve netted very little there and I’ve got it rated as a very slight talent regression. It’s my opinion we have not had our #2 best Defender (Z) healthy on the field in 2021 snd he’s our best pass rusher. That makes a big difference on any team if you strip their #1 pass rusher. I don’t care if it’s Tampa or Denver or whomever.

What we have in our favor is time. Unseasoned Rookies tend to get more confidence and experience (use Dillon as an example last season) It’s natural law that it takes a few games to get players acquainted with new roles. It also takes a new DC time to make in season adjustments.

This D feeds off the explosiveness of the Offense. As Cobb and MVS get rolling over the next few weeks, watch how the D responds. Detroit was just a scrimmage game to get some slop cleaned up.