Fire Capers

[Dantés]

Thompson has been one of the best drafting general managers in the league during his tenure but hasn´t been as successful over the last six years though.

With the jury out on the most recent classes, I still think he's been quite good in his most recent stretch. Perhaps he hasn't been quite as good as his heights, but he still compares favorably along with the better drafting teams in the league.

 

[Half Empty]

http://www.packers.com/team/howbuilt.html
Rather than look at the draft classes, I think it's better to see who is on the team from them, this being a D+D team. Way too subjective to tick off each guy and assign a value, but, just off the top of my head, I'd say that:

2016 - Nobody wowed us, certainly several that could be quality players
2015 - The CBs looked like winners at first, now, not so much. Monty is the only one that has shined.
2014 - Great job. Dix, Adams, Linsley
2013 - Bak and Hyde, with an apparently wasted #1 in Jones
2012 - Certainly Daniels, maybe (eventually) Perry

 

[Deleted member 6794]

With the jury out on the most recent classes, I still think he's been quite good in his most recent stretch. Perhaps he hasn't been quite as good as his heights, but he still compares favorably along with the better drafting teams in the league.

Using Pro Football Reference´s weighted career approximate value the Packers are tied for 10th over the last six drafts based on that numbers.

 

[Dantés]

Using Pro Football Reference´s weighted career approximate value the Packers are tied for 10th over the last six drafts based on that numbers.

But why even try and assess 2015 and 2016 already? That doesn't make too much sense to me.

What if you look at something like 2010/11 up until 2014?

 

[Deleted member 6794]

But why even try and assess 2015 and 2016 already? That doesn't make too much sense to me.

What if you look at something like 2010/11 up until 2014?

Pro Football Reference assigns a player an approximate value for each season therefore it makes sense to include 2015 and ´16 draft picks as well. I´m sorry but I currently don´t have the time to research the numbers for another time frame as well.

 

[Sunshinepacker]

I left Bridgewater off the list because he was a 1st round pick and that wasn't the discussion.

If you want to include Gerhart and Hodges, that's fine. I didn't consider their contributions to be worth mentioning.

Even if you do add those guys, there is a huge gulf between the quality of players on that list of Packers and the one for the Vikings. It isn't just about numbers.

But as I said in the first place, I don't have time to compare TT to the entire league. Anyone is free to look up the comparisons for themselves. But the reality is that, despite other faults, Thompson has been one of the best drafting GM's in the game during his tenure.

Bridgewater was the combination of second and fourth round picks for the Vikings. It's not fair analysis to penalize the Vikings GM for making a good trade.

 

[Dantés]

Bridgewater was the combination of second and fourth round picks for the Vikings. It's not fair analysis to penalize the Vikings GM for making a good trade.

Bridgewater the player was a 1st round pick. It's fair to exclude him if we're excluding all 1st round picks. The whole point of the exercise was to see who was/is most productive at picking players after round 1. So naturally I didn't include players picked inside round 1. I'm sorry if that decision isn't how you would have done it.

 

[Dantés]

Pro Football Reference assigns a player an approximate value for each season therefore it makes sense to include 2015 and ´16 draft picks as well. I´m sorry but I currently don´t have the time to research the numbers for another time frame as well.

That's fine. You don't have to. My point is that it's not a very fruitful process to analyze draft classes after only one or two seasons. The results could look totally different, for the better or the worse, in a year. You say PFR currently has him 10th over the last 5 years. That's a fine piece of data to bring into consideration. But give how recent some of these classes are, in a year it would be 5th or 15th. So why try and draw conclusions now on those young groups? I think it's pretty commonly accepted by those who follow/analyze the the draft that you need to wait a few years before you really know what you have.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

That's fine. You don't have to. My point is that it's not a very fruitful process to analyze draft classes after only one or two seasons. The results could look totally different, for the better or the worse, in a year. You say PFR currently has him 10th over the last 5 years. That's a fine piece of data to bring into consideration. But give how recent some of these classes are, in a year it would be 5th or 15th. So why try and draw conclusions now on those young groups? I think it's pretty commonly accepted by those who follow/analyze the the draft that you need to wait a few years before you really know what you have.

Absolutely agreed that it´s way too early to fairly evaluate the 2015 and ´16 draft classes. That doesn´t change the fact that some other teams have gotten better production out of those players than the Packers have so far.

 

[rodell330]

We can talk about punting, and this or that all we want to...but the only REAL thing keeping the Packers from at least returning to the SB is their inability to play defense and stop people. That has been the case for several seasons now. Even when TT called himself drafting mainly for defense a couple years ago...they still haven't reached top 15 status even. They break down at the most critical points of games, they give up to many big plays, guys don't have talent to play on many other rosters yet they stick around in GB, and they get lost to many times in if they should be playing man or zone. That's a combination of bit coaching and drafting. It's more of a blame to TT because he decides the personal...Capers can only coach who's on the roster. But at the same time you can't be so dumb that you allow your corners to give up big plays by putting them o an island. Gunter isn't good...Randall wasn't good this year, Rollins isn't good, and Hyde only really plays on the inside. You cannot play man to man and expect these guys to match up very well...especially against OBJ, Dez Bryant, and Julio Jones. Dumb coaching

 

[Deleted member 6794]

We can talk about punting, and this or that all we want to...but the only REAL thing keeping the Packers from at least returning to the SB is their inability to play defense and stop people. That has been the case for several seasons now. Even when TT called himself drafting mainly for defense a couple years ago...they still haven't reached top 15 status even. They break down at the most critical points of games, they give up to many big plays, guys don't have talent to play on many other rosters yet they stick around in GB, and they get lost to many times in if they should be playing man or zone. That's a combination of bit coaching and drafting. It's more of a blame to TT because he decides the personal...Capers can only coach who's on the roster. But at the same time you can't be so dumb that you allow your corners to give up big plays by putting them o an island. Gunter isn't good...Randall wasn't good this year, Rollins isn't good, and Hyde only really plays on the inside. You cannot play man to man and expect these guys to match up very well...especially against OBJ, Dez Bryant, and Julio Jones. Dumb coaching

Unfortunately it´s impossible to provide every cornerback with safety help over the top especially against an offense capable of running the ball effectively.

 

[Pkrjones]

...It's more of a blame to TT because he decides the personal...Capers can only coach who's on the roster. But at the same time you can't be so dumb that you allow your corners to give up big plays by putting them o an island. Gunter isn't good...Randall wasn't good this year, Rollins isn't good, and Hyde only really plays on the inside. You cannot play man to man and expect these guys to match up very well...especially against OBJ, Dez Bryant, and Julio Jones. Dumb coaching

Thanks Rodell, for returning this thread to Capers-related discussion. Maybe others could continue their banter in the Fire TT thread or even a draft-evaluation thread??

 

[Mondio]

I guess i'm not one to put blame on any one person or one thing when it's painfully obvious to me, their are numerous reasons and different circumstances surrounding each each season and why they ended like the did. To keep this about Capers, I'm never going to say he doesn't know how to coach a defense. I think it's a good defense to pair with this offense, assuming the available players are up to the task. I'm not going to turn into a ted or injury thread, but sometimes it's the player available and sometimes some guys just aren't up to the task like Matthews. He has been and is "supposed" to be a much different type player for us than he has been recently. and then in some seasons we've had a 1 legged Mulumba playing on the defensive line because we ran out of bodies on the Dline in the playoffs.

But the one issue i've always had with this defense is, even when we were "good" it always seems we've either taken the ball away, or the other team is scoring 3 or 7. Always yards to be gained, always the middle of the field to give up. It's like 3-10+ is a gimme for a conversion for the opposing offense consistently. But then that goes back to who's available and how they're performing. That's supposed to be Peppers, Matthews Perry time. Sacks or INT's, instead we've seen teams just sit back there with no pressure and convert time and time again.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

But the one issue i've always had with this defense is, even when we were "good" it always seems we've either taken the ball away, or the other team is scoring 3 or 7. Always yards to be gained, always the middle of the field to give up. It's like 3-10+ is a gimme for a conversion for the opposing offense consistently. But then that goes back to who's available and how they're performing. That's supposed to be Peppers, Matthews Perry time. Sacks or INT's, instead we've seen teams just sit back there with no pressure and convert time and time again.

True, the Packers only rank 28th in punts forced over Capers' tenure.

 

[Sunshinepacker]

Bridgewater the player was a 1st round pick. It's fair to exclude him if we're excluding all 1st round picks. The whole point of the exercise was to see who was/is most productive at picking players after round 1. So naturally I didn't include players picked inside round 1. I'm sorry if that decision isn't how you would have done it.

I thought the point was to see which teams used their picks outside the first round the best? That would be the better analysis. I mean, if in 2013 the Packers had traded their second, fourth and fifth pick to trade up into the first and draft Deandre Hopkins, most would consider that to have been a good move (I'm saying in a vacuum, obviously Lacy, Tretter and Hyde have been good but probably not as good as Hopkins). It would be fair to give TT credit for using non-first round picks to select Hopkins in the first round, because he didn't actually use a first-round pick to do so, he used three picks outside the first round.

Please, focus on the point of my post, not the players the Packers could have had instead (because in this scenario they never would have had those guys).

 

[Dantés]

I thought the point was to see which teams used their picks outside the first round the best? That would be the better analysis. I mean, if in 2013 the Packers had traded their second, fourth and fifth pick to trade up into the first and draft Deandre Hopkins, most would consider that to have been a good move (I'm saying in a vacuum, obviously Lacy, Tretter and Hyde have been good but probably not as good as Hopkins). It would be fair to give TT credit for using non-first round picks to select Hopkins in the first round, because he didn't actually use a first-round pick to do so, he used three picks outside the first round.

Please, focus on the point of my post, not the players the Packers could have had instead (because in this scenario they never would have had those guys).

It's been expressed that this thread is off track so I'm posting a response to this in the TT thread. You can pick it up there if you're interested.

 

[swhitset]

I thought the point was to see which teams used their picks outside the first round the best? That would be the better analysis. I mean, if in 2013 the Packers had traded their second, fourth and fifth pick to trade up into the first and draft Deandre Hopkins, most would consider that to have been a good move (I'm saying in a vacuum, obviously Lacy, Tretter and Hyde have been good but probably not as good as Hopkins). It would be fair to give TT credit for using non-first round picks to select Hopkins in the first round, because he didn't actually use a first-round pick to do so, he used three picks outside the first round.

Please, focus on the point of my post, not the players the Packers could have had instead (because in this scenario they never would have had those guys).

we can ignore the names if you want.... but the fact remains that the Packers would need to have decent players playing those other positions as well.... so I would say this is a not slam dunk..... beyond Aaron Rodgers.... I'm not sure any player can replace 3 decent players on your roster.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

we can ignore the names if you want.... but the fact remains that the Packers would need to have decent players playing those other positions as well.... so I would say this is a not slam dunk..... beyond Aaron Rodgers.... I'm not sure any player can replace 3 decent players on your roster.

Don't forget that Thompson traded three picks to the Colts to move up nine spots to select Spriggs in last year's draft. If the offensive lineman doesn't significantly improve that might turn out to be a terrible move.

 

[ExpatPacker]

The bottom line with TT is not his poor drafting but his refusal to employ FA a in a more effective way. He uses it for bargain basement players who have promise. Only twice has he gone after game changing players Woodson and peppers. For me to support him I would have to see him do that again...ahigh impact player of need. Could be a CB, olb, even an ilb or DL that is a real force in the middle. Heck even a top RB would be welcome. If he just sticks to the old formula of wait wait wait to get someone overlooked then his quality as GA will be compromised and I will have 0 expectations of him fielding a SB caliber team.

 

[Sunshinepacker]

we can ignore the names if you want.... but the fact remains that the Packers would need to have decent players playing those other positions as well.... so I would say this is a not slam dunk..... beyond Aaron Rodgers.... I'm not sure any player can replace 3 decent players on your roster.

Having a very young, top-10 WR would be better than having a good center (who the Packers have proven they can replace with Linsley), an undewhelming RB who had two good seasons followed by a lot of buffets and a career tweener in Hyde who is above average at a few things but elite at nothing (the only reason Hyde stands out so much is because the safeties were terrible pre-HaHa and the corners were terrible this year).

Tretter is the best player of the three I listed and Hyde is very useful as a backup; in reading the above I guess it sounds like I'm knocking those guys too much. They're good. But Hopkins is a TERRIFIC wide receiver who managed 1,500 yards in 2015 with Brian Hoyer and Ryan Mallet throwing the ball!! You don't think having Hopkins on the team last season would have been helpful? The Packers would have had their answer to the future of the WR position already on the team. I'm not arguing that TT was wrong to not make the trade, I'm pointing out that trading up for the right player should count towards a GM's record of good decisions.

 

[adambr2]

Falcons canned their DC and D line coach today. As much as that D improved near the end and they still weren't afraid to make changes.

 

[7thFloorRA]

Falcons fired their DC. Wow.

 

[Mondio]

Falcons canned their DC and D line coach today. As much as that D improved near the end and they still weren't afraid to make changes.

I guess we'll find out next year if it was the right move.

 

[Pkrjones]

I guess we'll find out next year if it was the right move.

True, but I think most of us know it's a mistake. Their D wasn't stellar but it was vastly improved over last year and NOT the reason they lost SB51. I think Arthur Blank was furious and wanted someone to pay, but Shanahan had already jumped-ship.

 

[rodell330]

We've given up a billion points in the playoffs and somehow Capers still manages to stick around. I love it! Blank isn't afraid to hold ppl accountable!! Must be nice.