Fire Capers

[GreenBlood]

Bish seemed to put it on the players. Said we needed a new mindset.

New mindset? Sounds like a coaching issue to me.

 

[7thFloorRA]

That's how it is with any DC.

Well yes but you would be gutting the 3-4 and turning it into the tampa 2 and then he would leave immediately.

 

[NorthWestCheeseHead]

Bishop says its not Capers.

True, but he was also far removed from what was going on both on the field and from the game planning perspective since he was on IR all year. So I'd take what he says with a grain of salt.

I'm also far removed from those instances too, much farther than Bishop, obviously. I would say that two strait years of abysmal on field performance would spell the end for any coach. I don't think Capers is necessarily a "bad" coach. Nor do I have any issue with how he coaches. However, whatever message or philosophy he is preaching is not getting through, or at the very least is not transitioning well to on the field performance. Injuries are not even a valid context to try and place on this season because we've all seen what the Packers were able to do even with their IR roster in 2010 under Capers.

 

[GreenBlood]

Well yes but you would be gutting the 3-4 and turning it into the tampa 2 and then he would leave immediately.

Perhaps. But I think he'd stay at least 3 years if offered the job. That's the basic "gentlemen's agreement" that coordinators usually honor when they take the job. They don't always hold to it, but I think Smith would. As much as I despise the Bears, I've always been okay with Lovie for some reason. Not really sure why.

 

[NorthWestCheeseHead]

Perhaps. But I think he'd stay at least 3 years if offered the job. That's the basic "gentlemen's agreement" that coordinators usually honor when they take the job. They don't always hold to it, but I think Smith would. As much as I despise the Bears, I've always been okay with Lovie for some reason. Not really sure why.

He does seem like a "class act". However we've enough issues on the team that we shouldn't be looking at heaping on the task of rebuilding the D too, especially since we basically used the 2012 draft predominately to strengthen our D in regards to the 3-4 scheme Capers uses.

If the Packers can't find a DC that runs a comparable scheme I say we suffer through Capers for another year and see how it looks again at the end of next season.

Of course Capers could make all this discussion moot by retiring.

 

[7thFloorRA]

So bishop thinks discipline and fundamentals are a problem. Who the hell is in charge of that??? The players?? Its Capers. Its his defense and its under his watch so its his problem.

 

[GreenBlood]

He does seem like a "class act". However we've enough issues on the team that we shouldn't be looking at heaping on the task of rebuilding the D too, especially since we basically used the 2012 draft predominately to strengthen our D in regards to the 3-4 scheme Capers uses.

And every single DL/LB we drafted in 2012 came out of a 4-3 defense in college. I'm beginning to think that might be a big part of the problem. See my other post on the matter. Just look at some of the draft reports for Worthy, Perry, Daniels and Manning and they all talk about those guys being ideal 4-3 players.

If the Packers can't find a DC that runs a comparable scheme I say we suffer through Capers for another year and see how it looks again at the end of next season.

I think we can be fairly confident what it would look like. It would be somewhere between where our D was this year and where it was last year, unless we added new starters to the mix who are not already on the roster.

Of course Capers could make all this discussion moot by retiring.

Hear! Hear!

 

[NorthWestCheeseHead]

I mean he did catch lightning in the bottle so to speak in 2010. Makes me wonder what got the guys playing that well, that consistently. (I am aware of some of the players that have since left that we probably should have tried keeping a little harder. *caugh*Jenkins*caugh* Yes I am also aware of the BS surrounding why he ended up going to the Eagles.)

 

[GreenBlood]

I mean he did catch lightning in the bottle so to speak in 2010. Makes me wonder what got the guys playing that well, that consistently. (I am aware of some of the players that have since left that we probably should have tried keeping a little harder. *caugh*Jenkins*caugh* Yes I am also aware of the BS surrounding why he ended up going to the Eagles.)

Nick Collins, Woodson getting older, and yes, losing Jenkins. I also think Howard Green probably had a lot more to do with stuffing the run than many may realize.

 

[NorthWestCheeseHead]

Nick Collins, Woodson getting older, and yes, losing Jenkins. I also think Howard Green probably had a lot more to do with stuffing the run than many may realize.

I always feel really bad when I forget about Collins when talking in regards to the Packers prior to this season.

All good points.

 

[billysofly]

i wouldnt fire him... i might fired Mike Trgovac - Defensive Line James Campen - Offensive Line
Tom Clements - Offensive Coordinator

 

[adambr2]

I have been happy with the improvement in the defense from this year to last. Of course, we were 32nd last year, so there was nowhere to go but up.

Improvement aside, I can't just brush off that in 3 out of the last 4 years, our defense has not just been beaten -- they have been utterly humiliated in the playoffs. In 2 out of those 3, (against the 49ers and Cardinals), we weren't just embarrassed -- the performance was historically bad, in some categories, either record breaking or close to it.

It's impossible to look past that. Some of the personnel on defense have been different in 3 out of those last 4 years, some have been the same. The constant -- the common denominator -- has been Capers.

 

[NorthWestCheeseHead]

i wouldnt fire him... i might fired Mike Trgovac - Defensive Line James Campen - Offensive Line
Tom Clements - Offensive Coordinator

Oh sure fire the OL coach because he didn't have to deal with two first round draft picked starters on IR, or a Center in Jeff Saturday who can't play the position without Payton Manning doing his job for him. That's all completly on the OL coach...

 

[azrsx05]

The defense needs a serious attitude adjustment. I just don't see Capers doing that. I would also put McCarthy on the hot seat next year. His stubbornness is causing this team to waste Rodgers prime years. I really don't know if he has it in him to fire Capers. I love this team and we have way too much talent and that makes me inpatient for results.

 

[TJV]

We can never know for sure but as the game wore on I was thinking what a difference Perry and Bishop would have made in that game (as kaiser7ko mentioned). Perry was not and will not be the pass rusher Clay is but he is better suited for the strong side OLB spot. Of course he could have been sucked in time after time after time after time by the inside fake like Walden was but if not, he should be much better able to set the edge on that side. Those saying Walden isn't the answer opposite Clay are taking the same position the Packers did - that's why Perry was drafted. I think it was Aikman who said the 9ers thought they'd struggle with the run up the middle. I can't help but think one of the Packers best tacklers and playmakers in Bishop would have made a difference in the middle of the defense. And if they would have stopped the inside run, the inside fake would not have been so effective.

So how much responsibility does Capers bear for Walden repeatedly being fooled by fakes? Clay was also susceptible to them. And what happened to Pickett, Raji & company stopping the run up the middle? Was that the fault of the coaching staff or were the players getting manhandled? The D made great strides this offseason but was embarrassed Saturday night. IMO that was due more to the players than the scheme but McCarthy, Capers, and the defensive staff can't escape all blame and responsibility for that. For example, even before halftime Walden and Clay should have been instructed to tackle the QB on the read option plays and ignore the inside handoffs and fakes. Let those inside take care of the RB (even though they weren't).

And is there something the staff as a whole are or aren't doing that makes the team more susceptible to injuries?

Looking at McCarthy's MO, if Capers is replaced I'll bet his replacement is on the staff. I don't think Greene has been coaching long enough to be considered so is Winston Moss next in line? He's the assistant HC but I wouldn't have much confidence in him taking over. Is it Mike Trgovac? In his six years as DC in Carolina his Ds ranked in the top 10 (in yards) three times. He wouldn't be overwhelmed with the responsibility. Darren Perry seems to be an up and coming coach. He's been coaching in the NFL for 11 years under LeBeau and Cowher (as HCs). The possibility of his bringing more of a "LeBeau" flavor to the D puts him at the top of my list among current assistants.

I think going to a 4-3 makes no sense - For example, I don't think Clay is a 4-3 DE and ******** up the best player on D isn't a "fix" IMO. The Packers don't have the personnel to play Lovie's D and he could still end up with a HC job.

BTW, the Packers offense didn't do the D any favors for parts of the game. When Rodgers was given time, why wasn't the "best WR corp in the NFL" getting open? And of course the two turnovers led to 14 SF points. Yes the long INT was "only" returned to mid field but losing the TO battle was huge. The D got manhandled, no doubt. I'm just saying the O bears at least a little responsibility for that outcome as well.

 

[bozz_2006]

You don't know if he has it in him to fire Capers? What does that even mean?

 

[bozz_2006]

The D got manhandled, no doubt. I'm just saying the O bears at least a little responsibility for that outcome as well.

Well, it wasn't a stellar game by the offense; we can all admit that. There were a couple turnovers. But what were they supposed to do? D gives up 45 points, 579 yards. Deffense can't get off the field, 49ers win TOP 38-21. Kaepernick sets an all-time NFL record for QB rushing yards. All-time!!

Sure, they abandoned the run. Rodgers kept on looking deep for quick-strike scores. But seriously, what was the other option? They knew the defense imploded and their was going to be no fixing it. I'm not putting this on the offense.

 

[GreenBlood]

Oh sure fire the OL coach because he didn't have to deal with two first round draft picked starters on IR, or a Center in Jeff Saturday who can't play the position without Payton Manning doing his job for him. That's all completly on the OL coach...

NWCH is right. I don't think Campen has done bad at all with what he's been given to work with. TT needs to step it up on assembling a better OL.

 

[GreenBlood]

I think going to a 4-3 makes no sense - For example, I don't think Clay is a 4-3 DE and ******** up the best player on D isn't a "fix" IMO.

And why do you think CM3 can't be taught a new position? He has all the tools to be an excellent linebacker in a 4-3. He just needs to learn the techniques. Now I don't know, maybe he's not a very bright guy. But he doesn't strike me as such.

 

[13 Times Champs]

The plan seemed to me to rush Kapernick which resulted in him having open lanes to run. It seemed that Capers was more concerned about his passing even when he contined to gash us with runs. I'm not sure Perry would have made a difference. I didn't see him being able to operate in space which you are going to have to do with a Kapernick. Bishop probably would have helped.

But the reality is teams are going to have injuries every year. We had a ton of them in 2010. When your DC gets worked two years in a row you have to feel the problem is deeper than that.

 

[ExpatPacker]

We can never know for sure but as the game wore on I was thinking what a difference Perry and Bishop would have made in that game (as kaiser7ko mentioned). Perry was not and will not be the pass rusher Clay is but he is better suited for the strong side OLB spot. Of course he could have been sucked in time after time after time after time by the inside fake like Walden was but if not, he should be much better able to set the edge on that side. Those saying Walden isn't the answer opposite Clay are taking the same position the Packers did - that's why Perry was drafted. I think it was Aikman who said the 9ers thought they'd struggle with the run up the middle. I can't help but think one of the Packers best tacklers and playmakers in Bishop would have made a difference in the middle of the defense. And if they would have stopped the inside run, the inside fake would not have been so effective.

So how much responsibility does Capers bear for Walden repeatedly being fooled by fakes? Clay was also susceptible to them. And what happened to Pickett, Raji & company stopping the run up the middle? Was that the fault of the coaching staff or were the players getting manhandled? The D made great strides this offseason but was embarrassed Saturday night. IMO that was due more to the players than the scheme but McCarthy, Capers, and the defensive staff can't escape all blame and responsibility for that. For example, even before halftime Walden and Clay should have been instructed to tackle the QB on the read option plays and ignore the inside handoffs and fakes. Let those inside take care of the RB (even though they weren't).

And is there something the staff as a whole are or aren't doing that makes the team more susceptible to injuries?

Looking at McCarthy's MO, if Capers is replaced I'll bet his replacement is on the staff. I don't think Greene has been coaching long enough to be considered so is Winston Moss next in line? He's the assistant HC but I wouldn't have much confidence in him taking over. Is it Mike Trgovac? In his six years as DC in Carolina his Ds ranked in the top 10 (in yards) three times. He wouldn't be overwhelmed with the responsibility. Darren Perry seems to be an up and coming coach. He's been coaching in the NFL for 11 years under LeBeau and Cowher (as HCs). The possibility of his bringing more of a "LeBeau" flavor to the D puts him at the top of my list among current assistants.

I think going to a 4-3 makes no sense - For example, I don't think Clay is a 4-3 DE and ******** up the best player on D isn't a "fix" IMO. The Packers don't have the personnel to play Lovie's D and he could still end up with a HC job.

BTW, the Packers offense didn't do the D any favors for parts of the game. When Rodgers was given time, why wasn't the "best WR corp in the NFL" getting open? And of course the two turnovers led to 14 SF points. Yes the long INT was "only" returned to mid field but losing the TO battle was huge. The D got manhandled, no doubt. I'm just saying the O bears at least a little responsibility for that outcome as well.

A couple of quick comments to your analysis. Was it the scheme or the players? There is a third factor. Lack of preparation. This seemed to be the case. The Packer defense was not prepared to handle the kind of QB play showed by Kaepernick. They were repeatedly fooled. Walden, Matthews, Jones. Plus, just as they did in week 17 against Peterson, the Packer defense showed a lack of discipline in setting the edge and covering the lanes.

Whether it was player failure or coaching, something just didn't get through to the players, and it has happened a number of times this year. They did not execute the scheme well. The question is, do the Packers keep Capers as DC in the hopes that things will eventually come together, or do they opt for a change? Everything this team had supposedly worked for defensively just fell apart against the 9ers. There's always the argument to keep the ship on course, but how long does one wait? One more season? I think we can all agree that this team has zero chance of making it to the SB if this defense doesn't get seriously better.

Second comment, I agree about the offense, which disturbs me. As great as Aaron Rodgers is, I see signs of a regression in certain parts of his game. The tendency to hold onto the ball too long is an issue we've long discussed here, going for the big play too often, the lack of patience, missing open receivers too often suggesting some problems in his check-down sequence. I certainly won't put it all on Rodgers, far from it. Again, is it partly because the OL hasn't given him enough of a secure pocket? Are his receivers all blanketed that badly? Again, something doesn't seem right here and I haven't taken near the time to analyze it to say why.

 

[GreenBlood]

, the Packer defense showed a lack of discipline in setting the edge and covering the lanes.

Whether it was player failure or coaching, something just didn't get through to the players, and it has happened a number of times this year. They did not execute the scheme well.

The problem with this statement is that we do not know what the scheme was. Did they fail to do what they were told to do, or were they told to do the wrong things? Either way, it's Capers' job to address it, and he has failed to do so. They did a lot of zone blitz stuff that just wasn't working and what did Capers do? He kept right on doing it.

 

[bozz_2006]

The problem with this statement is that we do not know what the scheme was. Did they fail to do what they were told to do, or were they told to do the wrong things?

Technically you're correct, we don't know what they were told to do. But suggesting that they weren't told to contain and set the edge? I mean, especially against an option QB? No.

They played undisciplined. They didn't keep their shoulders square to the LOS. That's how you contain read option. They got turned sideways. That's how you get burned by read option. It was a defensive failure of epic proportions. There's plenty of blame to be passed around.

Either way, it's Capers' job to address it, and he has failed to do so. They did a lot of zone blitz stuff that just wasn't working and what did Capers do? He kept right on doing it.

Yep. failure of epic proportions.

 

[GreenBlood]

Technically you're correct, we don't know what they were told to do. But suggesting that they weren't told to contain and set the edge? I mean, especially against an option QB? No.

I'm saying yes on that. How can you set a hard edge when you're dropping your ends back in zone blitzes way too much? When you do that, you're hoping your blitzer is able to read run in time to beat the RB/QB to the corner. It's a gamble that Capers took more than any amount of reason would dictate and it's one of the many reasons his time should be over.

 

[bozz_2006]

OK, yeah. I was looking on the other side. It was either drop them or fire them. What frustrated me was when our blitzes (yes, our OLBS too) hauled *** upfield and ran themselves out of the play. We knew they were running option, why the hell didn't we just play fundamental football and defend the option. Set the edge and force the issue. It was infuriating. Too cute for our own good. Have SOMEONE set an edge, for crying out loud!