Decline of Mike McCarthy

[Pokerbrat2000]

No, sorry.....I've always been a 61 year old but thanks for the point.

I can back up Buggy on this, I have one of his baby pictures!

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[I asked LT to delete my acct]

I can back up Buggy on this, I have one of his baby pictures!

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thank you......I knew I could always rely on you....lol

 

[Half Empty]

Have you met 22-25 year old males at the height of physical excellence? Do you remember what it was like to be 22-25? I do, and I was far from an "adult" in the mental sense of the word. And most people don't even have the issue that many of these players have of not facing consequences for much of their lives because all of their indiscretions were excused because they were good at football.

I really believe that Aaron Jones is the perfect encapsulation of what was wrong with MM in the later years. His refusal to adjust his offensive scheme to take advantage of players was ridiculous, and no single player highlighted his stubbornness more than his refusal to acknowledge what everyone knew for about 5 games.

Just glad I didn't have those in my military unit.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

You got this way by keeping the same people doing the same things for too long. The whole operation got stale. I keep going back to Bill Walsh who said 10 years should be it to be the head coach of any one team.

Bill Belichick might have a different view about it.

And it was clearly the right decision since the performance of the Packers defense actually improved after he was traded.

The Packers defense didn't improve after trading Clinton-Dix as the unit allowed an average of 24.7 points before and 25.2 afterwards.

 

[PackAttack12]

The Packers defense didn't improve after trading Clinton-Dix as the unit allowed an average of 24.7 points before and 25.2 afterwards.

Come on captain. I know you were against the Dix trade, but you know better than to include the last two games of the season which where essentially throw away games with skeleton crews on the defensive side of the ball.

The season ended with the loss to the Bears.

If you look at points against for the 7 games after letting go of Dix:

Patriots - 31
Dolphins - 12
Seahawks - 27
Vikings - 24
Cardinals - 20
Falcons - 20
Bears - 24

Outside of the Patriots game, which the Packers hung in tough until the 4th quarter, those outputs were more than enough to win those games. That's an average of 22.6 points per game which is less than the 24.7.

Those games were while the Packers were still competitive and had hope for the playoffs.

 

[swhitset]

All that was pretty evident from watching the team play. And im pretty sure no one ever confused mcarthy for a genius, I mean the way he managed the clock made me realize he was a complete DA long ago. That's gotta be one of the easiest jobs as the head coach and that dude couldn't handle it right from the beginning to the end. And not only that but he was also apparently too dumb to just hire a guy to do it for him if he couldn't handle it. He just always struck me as the typical big dumb football is all I have in life, all I've ever had in life guy. He should of been gone years ago. Imagine if the Packers had gotten mcvay two years ago instead of the rams, can't help but imagine itd be the Packers in the Superbowl with the unstoppable innovative offense. By all accounts Rodgers is very smart so I'm sure it was incredibly frustrating for him to deal with mcarthys stupidity, I'm sure that's where a lot of their friction came from. I mean we all work with some stupid people that make the job harder than it has to be for us. I see that as how Rodgers viewed mm in the end. Work smarter not harder because smarter is safer and faster. Anyways, what happened under mcarthy is a mute point all we can do is hope that mcvays buddy is just as smart.

I’m not sure how a point can be mute... but it is certainly moot by now.

 

[brandon2348]

Come on captain. I know you were against the Dix trade, but you know better than to include the last two games of the season which where essentially throw away games with skeleton crews on the defensive side of the ball.

The season ended with the loss to the Bears.

If you look at points against for the 7 games after letting go of Dix:

Patriots - 31
Dolphins - 12
Seahawks - 27
Vikings - 24
Cardinals - 20
Falcons - 20
Bears - 24

Outside of the Patriots game, which the Packers hung in tough until the 4th quarter, those outputs were more than enough to win those games. That's an average of 22.6 points per game which is less than the 24.7.

Those games were while the Packers were still competitive and had hope for the playoffs.

If the Packers average 30 points a game they go 6-1 during that stretch. People need to realize it's a 30 point league and 30 is the magic number.

This defense is actually good enough to compete for a championship. We just need the offense to reach its potential.

 

[Patriotplayer90]

If the Packers average 30 points a game they go 6-1 during that stretch. People need to realize it's a 30 point league and 30 is the magic number.

This defense is actually good enough to compete for a championship. We just need the offense to reach its potential.

Going up 20 to Arizona is pathetic. Giving up 30 to a team picking in the top 10 TWICE is pathetic, no matter the personnel. This defense has been terrible over the years no matter how good our offense has been. They weren't good enough then, they aren't good enough now.

 

[rmontro]

Bakht says there was no accountability for any of the players actions. Being late for meetings or flight and overall breakdown in discipline that went ingored.

This is bad news, that we were not aware of as far as I know.
I'm not sure LeFleur strikes me as a strict disciplinarian though.

 

[GreenNGold_81]

If the Packers average 30 points a game they go 6-1 during that stretch. People need to realize it's a 30 point league and 30 is the magic number.

This defense is actually good enough to compete for a championship. We just need the offense to reach its potential.

Inevitably we'll run into a red hot offense as well. Having a defense that can shut down a KC would be necessary if we want to win a superbowl again in Rodgers lifetime. As it stands, a red hot offense will torch our defense to the tune of 40 or 50. 30 points don't matter if the other team is up three scores.

 

[brandon2348]

Inevitably we'll run into a red hot offense as well. Having a defense that can shut down a KC would be necessary if we want to win a superbowl again in Rodgers lifetime. As it stands, a red hot offense will torch our defense to the tune of 40 or 50. 30 points don't matter if the other team is up three scores.

Our secondary is better then KC's. All that KC defense has is a couple edge rushers. KC can't stop the run either.

If the Packers sign a free safety and an edge rusher with Pettine running the show it would be good enough if we can get the offense to score 30. The first team to 30 wins. That's the new NFL.

 

[brandon2348]

Going up 20 to Arizona is pathetic. Giving up 30 to a team picking in the top 10 TWICE is pathetic, no matter the personnel. This defense has been terrible over the years no matter how good our offense has been. They weren't good enough then, they aren't good enough now.

It's never gonna be an elite defense for at least the rest of Rodgers career. The quicker we can realize that the better.

 

[Packer Fan in SD]

From 2014-2016 the Saints were 31, 32 and 31 in DVOA. After a good draft they were 5 th in 2017. It is not impossible for a team to improve the defense in a year or 2, let alone the time Rodgers has left.

 

[OldSchool101]

In watching this unfold, I wonder how much of some of the moves this season such as trading HaHa and Montgomery were tied to Gutekunst seeing the culture and starting to weed some of it out.

That was exactly it.
Looking back on these moves, I see both of those guys as “not living up to their potential”.

I actually defended Dix on more than one occasion early on when folks in here said he was a terrible tackler. Dix became what I refer to as a polarized playmaker. He either stuffed you for -2 with a perfect form hard hitting tackle... or he missed assignment and let a receiver run completely unabated. No in between. He was rarely if ever a Safety that would change the complexity of a contest.

As far as Monty. He had so much potential as that universal tool. He was actually very talented, but he obviously had health issues which didn’t help. He also had issues protecting the ball before that KR though. He just went downhill and looked almost lethargic. I have a hunch that after that last fumble he either tried to dodge responsibility or gave someone a dose of attitude (likely upset at himself) behind the scenes afterwards I believe that lack of accountability came to a head. It didn’t sit well for a HC needing a scapegoat for the poor discipline that had come to the public eye by mid season. Ty was expendable and MM was mitigating damages at that juncture. It was overkill in an attempt for either Zook or MM to save face. It was too little too late. Again, just a hunch from the way things played out.

 

[brandon2348]

From 2014-2016 the Saints were 31, 32 and 31 in DVOA. After a good draft they were 5 th in 2017. It is not impossible for a team to improve the defense in a year or 2, let alone the time Rodgers has left.

Here's the deal. I don't believe it anymore. No draft pick is gonna make me all the sudden believe it. I wouldn't put one dime on this Packer defense being a top 5 defense. I have literally heard it all. We have wasted and I mean wasted Rodgers prime years believing this defense would get better with investing massive draft capital all for basically nothing other then stressing the offense. So now with all these rules that have further tilted the league in favor of offense were all the sudden gonna hit on a bunch of draft picks and have some top 5 defense?

I have some water front property in Arizona for sale if anyone is ineterested?

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Come on captain. I know you were against the Dix trade, but you know better than to include the last two games of the season which where essentially throw away games with skeleton crews on the defensive side of the ball.

The season ended with the loss to the Bears.

If you look at points against for the 7 games after letting go of Dix:

Patriots - 31
Dolphins - 12
Seahawks - 27
Vikings - 24
Cardinals - 20
Falcons - 20
Bears - 24

Outside of the Patriots game, which the Packers hung in tough until the 4th quarter, those outputs were more than enough to win those games. That's an average of 22.6 points per game which is less than the 24.7.

Those games were while the Packers were still competitive and had hope for the playoffs.

Yeah, you're right about that. The Packers still need a significant upgrade at free safety to field a championship caliber defense.

Having a defense that can shut down a KC would be necessary if we want to win a superbowl again in Rodgers lifetime.

It's close to impossible to shut down an offense like the Chiefs. At some point the Packers will have to win a high scoring game to play in another Super Bowl with Rodgers.

 

[Patriotplayer90]

It's never gonna be an elite defense for at least the rest of Rodgers career. The quicker we can realize that the better.

NE has had top 10 scoring defenses for the better part of 2 decades without elite personnel. You need a good coach and sound, disciplined defensive players, and a good secondary. A tough pass rush is necessary to make it elite, but several of the top 10 scoring defenses weren't better at rushing the passer out of the base defense than we were.

 

[brandon2348]

NE has had top 10 scoring defenses for the better part of 2 decades without elite personnel. You need a good coach and sound, disciplined defensive players, and a good secondary. A tough pass rush is necessary to make it elite, but several of the top 10 scoring defenses weren't better at rushing the passer out of the base defense than we were.

NE consistently plays bend but don't break and great red zone defense. This is exactly what I believe the Packers need to do.

Creating turnovers and being able to turn potential TD's into FG's is where the $ is at. If you can add an offense that can score 30 a game you have a real good shot at going to the Super Bowl.

 

[scotscheese]

I believe they are adult enough to behave in a mature way. I think THEY are as accountable as MM was. Can they look at themselves in the mirror and say "My behavior has been the best I can do ?". Just my opinion of course

not only should they be adult enough to act in an approprite manner, but at the end of the day they are employees of the packers organisation. if i start turning up late, or missing/being late for meetings(rather than flights), then my bosses would haul my *** in for it, and this is where the management regime needs to step in and give the players a swift boot up the derrier

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

NE consistently plays bend but don't break and great red zone defense. This is exactly what I believe the Packers need to do.

Creating turnovers and being able to turn potential TD's into FG's is where the $ is at. If you can add an offense that can score 30 a game you have a real good shot at going to the Super Bowl.

Agreed. While as a whole, the Packers finished with a Zero turnover differential, that was aided by an offense that was very secure with the ball and was 2nd in the least amount of giveaways. The defense on the other hand was 29th in takeaways. I can't tell you how many times I watched a Packer defender come in on the QB and seemed all he was focused on was getting the sack. Strip sacks, ball hawking DB's, knowing how to punch/rip the ball away from a ball carrier, we need more of it to make a bigger difference.

 

[Sunshinepacker]

No, sorry.....I've always been a 61 year old but thanks for the point.

Np!

 

[Sunshinepacker]

Ironic you use Aaron Jones in this situation, a guy who was suspended for 2 games for Substance Abuse, as an example of what was wrong with MM, while also discussing players not acting like adults.

No, it isn't. Two games suspension is on him. The fact that he was obviously better yet it took 5 games for MM to realize it (after his suspension was over) is on MM.

 

[Mondio]

Or maybe the fact that he couldn’t handle a handful of games at 20 touches per without breaking down for the 2nd year in a row is proof they used him exactly as much as his body allows?

Injured last year injured in Otas, injured all but 1 week of preseason before sitting out a suspension and finished the year injured again after a light to moderate work load and people think he’s a workhorse?

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

No, it isn't. Two games suspension is on him. The fact that he was obviously better yet it took 5 games for MM to realize it (after his suspension was over) is on MM.

Perhaps you missed my point. When a player gets suspended for things like what Jones was suspended for, that is not just on him, it penalizes his teammates as well. I like the future of Jones and hope he has put those kinds of behaviors behind him, but if we are going to talk about the immaturity of players, actions like the ones Jones was busted for, have to be included.

As far as how much MM used him, part of that might have been directly related to the suspension. Also, as Mondio just pointed out, I don't think MM viewed Jones as a workhorse RB and wanted to limit his carries to keep him as fresh as possible.

 

[OldSchool101]

Creating turnovers and being able to turn potential TD's into FG's is where the $ is at.

Our ability to come out positive on takeaways has become horrendous. Keep in mind our QB is probably the most finicky guy as far as ball safety. We should be at +20 with Aaron Rodgers low % INT. Certainly top 5-10 in turnover ratio would be acceptable, but we’re one of the worst of all time if you consider the low INT %
If I’m the HC that’s my very first meeting with the position coaches. We have to find a way to get that back and it needs to be a major focus. Next are committed fouls on ST. 1 ST foul can easily generate 40+ yards in lost field position or worse.
The general mental errors are “Drive Killers” Just ask Dee Ford for him it was a Superbowl Killer!