Building through the draft AND ADDING key pieces via Free agency

[HardRightEdge]

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[longtimefan]

Schneider got his start in scouting over 20 years ago. He spent about 10 years working for Wolf polishing his trade, then went off to Cleveland. By the time he came back to the Packers he was already an established, well regarded personnel man.

I couldnt find Schneider working for the Browns?


http://www.seahawks.com/team/staff/John-Schneider/940d6037-3d45-4898-821f-221e8caa444d

Before joining the Seahawks, Schneider enjoyed eight successful seasons with the Green Bay Packers. Originally joining the Packers March 1, 2002, as a personnel analyst to the general manager, he was promoted in May of 2008 to director of football operations. In his role, Schneider served as strategic counsel to General Manager Ted Thompson, addressing and evaluating the needs of the team in both free agency and in the draft while incorporating long-range planning processes that examined the Packers’ roster, as well as the rosters of all NFL teams.

Before rejoining the Packers in 2002, he spent three seasons with the Kansas City Chiefs (1997-99), one year with the Seahawks (2000) and a year with the Washington Redskins (2001) as vice president of player personnel.

 

[HardRightEdge]

I couldnt find Schneider working for the Browns?


http://www.seahawks.com/team/staff/John-Schneider/940d6037-3d45-4898-821f-221e8caa444d

Sorry, I mispoke. It was the Chiefs, not Cleveland.

Of course, that has nothing to do with the point being made.

Suffice it to say by 2001 he was VP of Player Personnel for the Redskins, as noted in your post, 4 years before TT was named GM in Green Bay. He is far from being a TT product.

 

[ivo610]

They had their success under TT. Being an intern when you are 19 under wolf doesn't put you under his tree.

Should we just call it the al Davis tree instead? Wolf learned some from Davis.

Both deserve credit, but to discredit their success during the Thompson era is shortsighted.

 

[Luca]

As already mentioned here the rules changed. In Wolf's early days there was no cap and the rookie pay scale was different. Right the rookie deals are cheap compared to veteran deals. So draft picks are not just picks, but also at least 3 years of cheap labor, which is especially important due to the cap. So draft picks are more valuable than ever.

Given that you lose more free agents than you sign, you get valuable compensatory picks. So signing free agents might also cost you you valuable draft picks. So the current CAP and CBA rewards being conservative during free agency.

What we need is another great draft! It looks like Ted nailed the 2013 draft, but Ted missed on too many picks in 2011 and 2012 (especially 2011). But on the positive side, 2011 might have been Ted's worst draft, he still found a star in Randall Cobb.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

It is when you can save it...don't be shocked if Lang is moved to center and Tretter to guard with Bulaga or Bahk occupying RT. We need all the money we can save as Shields and Jones are higher priorities to re-sign then EDS in my opinion.

I don´t think moving Lang to center would be a good idea. Right now we have one of the best guard tandems in the league, no reason to break that up. I would like to get EDS back, but no way the Packers should be paying him $4 million a year. If they don´t bring him back they better have a solid backup plan should Tretter not work out.

 

[HardRightEdge]

They had their success under TT. Being an intern when you are 19 under wolf doesn't put you under his tree.

Should we just call it the al Davis tree instead? Wolf learned some from Davis.

Both deserve credit, but to discredit their success during the Thompson era is shortsighted.

You either did not read what I wrote, did not read the bios, or have no clue how careers are developed.

 

[NOMOFO]

You either did not read what I wrote, did not read the bios, or have no clue how careers are developed.

Is it even worth carrying on the debate over what tree they fell from given that there's little in common from when Al Davis or Ron Wolf were GMs verses modern day rostering?

Beyond all of this... I think we'd be silly to think we know the facts behind all of these guys. I heard an interview with Andrew Brandt this week, talking about his time with the team. I find interviews with those front office guys fascinating. Much of what the "average fan" thinks he knows of these guys and their situations is not entirely reality.

I always use the Al Mcguire story as an example. Al Mcguire is a legend in Wisconsin. Most fans consider him one of the best coaches to ever coach college hoops in the state. I'm not saying he was great or was not.... what I can say however is most people would be amazed if they knew the true story and what kind of coach he was.

The true story is that Al would seldom run practice and often times would not even attend practice. He saw his role as being there to sit on the bench game day. Most of what we would consider as a head coaches role, he left to others. It's just a very different image than most people think of him.

 

[HardRightEdge]

Is it even worth carrying on the debate over what tree they fell from given that there's little in common from when Al Davis or Ron Wolf were GMs verses modern day rostering?

I agree there's little room for debate on this topic. You'll have to elaborate on your point about "modern day rostering" with respect to Wolf...I fail to see how there's "little in common" with regards to scouting and talent evaluation.

 

[NOMOFO]

I agree there's little room for debate on this topic. You'll have to elaborate on your point about "modern day rostering" with respect to Wolf...I fail to see how there's "little in common" with regards to scouting and talent evaluation.

For half of Wolf's years in Green Bay there was no salary cap. If you don't think the salary cap alone completely changes the game, then we'll just have to disagree I guess.

Does anyone here doubt that if there was no cap, Jerry Jones would be one of the winningest general managers of all time at this point? Yet, with the cap he sucks.

I'm not trying to make a point on what GM is better or worse or who influenced who here... because I literally have no dog in that fight.

 

[BorderRivals.com]

I don´t think moving Lang to center would be a good idea. Right now we have one of the best guard tandems in the league, no reason to break that up. I would like to get EDS back, but no way the Packers should be paying him $4 million a year. If they don´t bring him back they better have a solid backup plan should Tretter not work out.

You don't understand Captain. Rodell told us in a different thread that he's watched tape of Tretter and knows he'll be a good player. So, moving Lang to his unnatural position and inserting a complete unknown at guard will work out just fine.

 

[rodell330]

You don't understand Captain. Rodell told us in a different thread that he's watched tape of Tretter and knows he'll be a good player. So, moving Lang to his unnatural position and inserting a complete unknown at guard will work out just fine.

Another flippin misquote!! smh. You guy's kill me putting words in my mouth to try and prove your points.

It is when you can save it...don't be shocked if Lang is moved to center and Tretter to guard with Bulaga or Bahk occupying RT. We need all the money we can save as Shields and Jones are higher priorities to re-sign then EDS in my opinion.

You are entitled to your opinion besides i've seen film on Tretter coming out and i like the guy...i think he's going to be a good linemen. Have a nice day.

ABOVE^^^^^^^Is what i really said. Come on Border! you can do better i'm sure man.

 

[HardRightEdge]

For half of Wolf's years in Green Bay there was no salary cap. If you don't think the salary cap alone completely changes the game, then we'll just have to disagree I guess.

Does anyone here doubt that if there was no cap, Jerry Jones would be one of the winningest general managers of all time at this point? Yet, with the cap he sucks.

I'm not trying to make a point on what GM is better or worse or who influenced who here... because I literally have no dog in that fight.

Notwithstanding your protestations, let's be reminded that you interjected yourself into the subject of the Wolf executive development tree with presumptively relevant commentary. So I'll try to make it as relevant as I can.

So, the salary cap was introduced in 1994, thereby in place for the last 7 years of Wolf's tenure. The individuals in question (Schneider, McKenzie, Dorsey and Thompson) were all given their first jobs in scouting between 1991 and 1994, and they all spent at least the first 6 years of the cap working for Wolf.

Further, the foundation upon which all scouting is built is talent evaluation...can a guy play, does he fit the scheme, does he fit a need. That comes first, money considerations comes after.

Unrelated to the "tree" issue, it's helpful to point out that the rookie salary scale under the new CBA turns back the clock with respect to college scouting and the draft. There's very little wiggle room in those draftee contracts, and those rookie deals present such outstanding relative value, particularly in the upper rounds, one would like as many as he can get his hands on.

I never questioned that the introduction of the salary cap had a major affect on how rosters are constructed. It never came up until you mentioned it.

 

[TJV]

I think you are all having trouble seeing the forest for the trees. Just kidding - couldn't help it. I really don't care about who influenced who by how much. In fact IMO influence goes both ways, it's mostly but not always from the more experienced to the less experienced. What I do care about is the brain drain that has taken place in Green Bay. That's undeniable and I think clearly detrimental to the franchise. But its an inevitable result of success.

I don't think Lang has the quickness to be a good OC and I really like both starting OGs, so I hope they aren't considering switching Lang to OC at 1265. If they are contemplating losing EDS, I hope Tretter is first in line to compete for that job. But I'd rather not have an inexperienced OC to start the season.

 

[HardRightEdge]

I think you are all having trouble seeing the forest for the trees. Just kidding - couldn't help it. I really don't care about who influenced who by how much.

Well, that's you. I think it is relevant in evaluating the performance and value of the current GM and the prospects for the brain drain being rectified, a matter about which you just showed justified concern.

Had TT developed a passel of high-achieving talent evaluators in the past, we might have confidence in the prospect of more emerging in the near future. But since he did not, the confidence level cannot be particularly high.

 

[NOMOFO]

Another flippin misquote!! smh. You guy's kill me putting words in my mouth to try and prove your points.

It is when you can save it...don't be shocked if Lang is moved to center and Tretter to guard with Bulaga or Bahk occupying RT. We need all the money we can save as Shields and Jones are higher priorities to re-sign then EDS in my opinion.

You are entitled to your opinion besides i've seen film on Tretter coming out and i like the guy...i think he's going to be a good linemen. Have a nice day.

ABOVE^^^^^^^Is what i really said. Come on Border! you can do better i'm sure man.

ahhhhhhh .... please explain how anyone misquoted you.

You Said: "don't be shocked if Lang is moved to center and Tretter to guard" "i've seen film on Tretter coming out and i like the guy"

Border Said: "Rodell told us in a different thread that he's watched tape of Tretter and knows he'll be a good player. So, moving Lang to his unnatural position and inserting a complete unknown at guard will work out just fine."



Sometimes it really appears this is some sort of odd filibuster action you keep taking. Like if you keep rambling long enough, without making any sense and attempting to spin things in circles, at some point the thread gets locked and/or people stop even trying with you. What in God's name did he misquote?

 

[TJV]

Well, that's you.

Yes, that's me. And the truth is you don't know how much influence Thompson had on those that have left the front office.

 

[HardRightEdge]

Yes, that's me. And the truth is you don't know how much influence Thompson had on those that have left the front office.

Not entirely. But we do know they were hand picked by Wolf and were TT peers, not subordinates, in their formative years.

The facts weigh so heavily toward Wolf in this argument I'm utterly surprised it would draw argument, especially from you.

And let's go back to where this argument began...with a presumption that the recently departed were TT products whereas if any presumption is to be made it would be they are Wolf mentorees.

 

[rodell330]

ahhhhhhh .... please explain how anyone misquoted you.

You Said: "don't be shocked if Lang is moved to center and Tretter to guard" "i've seen film on Tretter coming out and i like the guy"

Border Said: "Rodell told us in a different thread that he's watched tape of Tretter and knows he'll be a good player. So, moving Lang to his unnatural position and inserting a complete unknown at guard will work out just fine."



Sometimes it really appears this is some sort of odd filibuster action you keep taking. Like if you keep rambling long enough, without making any sense and attempting to spin things in circles, at some point the thread gets locked and/or people stop even trying with you. What in God's name did he misquote?

You again?? i will when you respond to my post to you. Til then go away.

 

[TJV]

The facts weigh so heavily toward Wolf in this argument I'm utterly surprised it would draw argument, especially from you.

You should be surprised except I'm not arguing. I posted:

I really don't care about who influenced who by how much.

You were the one that then got pissy.

 

[HardRightEdge]

You should be surprised except I'm not arguing. I posted: You were the one that then got pissy.

Oh, yes, you did not care then went on to express an opinions. Uncharacteristic dissembling on your part.

 

[TJV]

Oh, yes, you did not care then went on to express an opinions. Uncharacteristic dissembling on your part.

This is getting a little funny. You were arguing about whose trees several branches belong to. I attempted a joke and posted I don’t care. You marked my post “Disagree” – apparently disagreeing with my not caring. Ya gotta admit, that’s at least a little funny. Then you got a little pissy posting “Well, that’s you.” And apparently continued in an effort to make me care. (I disagreed with your attempt at making me care about something about which I don’t care.) I then didn’t offer an opinion but stated a fact with which you apparently agreed (“Not entirely.”): No one can know how much influence one person had on another. Particularly since you were never in the same room with the people about which you are opining. (The last sentence, unlike the sentence which preceded it, is not a fact but a supposition.) Much ado about not very much ... and I still don't care.

:

 

[rodell330]

Are you two (JackV and HRE) going to keep arguing about the same thing? or actually really let it go?? like you both keep saying? just agree to disagree or something geeze. Funny how both of you keep marking each others post disagree but claiming neither of you care haha.

 

[TJV]

Are you two (JackV and HRE) going to keep arguing about the same thing? or actually really let it go?? like you both keep saying? just agree to disagree or something geeze.

Wait a minute - you of all posters saying two others should let something go??!! That was meant in jest, right? HRE and I have each posted 4 posts in this back and forth. How many have you and NOMOFO gone back and forth on? Over how many thread? I was about to suggest you both write one post and just post in response to each other over and over again.

Funny how both of you keep marking each others post disagree but claiming neither of you care haha.

I don't see anything in HRE's posts saying he doesn't care. I'm the only that posted that. In fact he cares so much he wants me to care!

 

[HardRightEdge]

Wait a minute - you of all posters saying two others should let something go??!! That was meant in jest, right? HRE and I have each posted 4 posts in this back and forth. How many have you and NOMOFO gone back and forth on? Over how many thread? I was about to suggest you both write one post and just post in response to each other over and over again.
I don't see anything in HRE's posts saying he doesn't care. I'm the only that posted that. In fact he cares so much he wants me to care!

You do an awful lot of not caring about something you don't care about perhaps because you know you should care. Take care....