Bucks 2024-25 Season Thread

[Voyageur]

It was humiliating watching the Bucks play Atlanta last night. Don't be fooled by that charge in the 4th quarter. It really meant nothing. This team does not play defense and doesn't seem to be coached to really know how to play defense as a unit. When they make a good defensive play, it's purely by accident.

I've watched Kuzma, Giannis, and several others turn into observers, just like Lillard has been. I guess the fight has gone out of them. It's really time to disband the entire roster and find a way to start over, and it's not by giving away the future like we've seen Horst do. They should become the "low-rent-district" team that people can trade huge contracts to along with draft picks, so they Bucks can build the pot in two or three years, to rise back to the top.

Sometimes, when you're rebuilding, you turn your resources into huge reserves of resources in draft capital to make it happen. When you get to the point that you can get a couple of lottery picks over a couple of years in a row, you could hit pay dirt by getting at the top of that list.

With huge draft capital, and then money available for free agents in a couple of years, they could really return to the top if they have the right GM and President pulling the strings and using the cap space creatively to ensure that they have totally rebuilt the core of the team and surrounded them with complementary talent.

Because of history, Milwaukee is not a great place for players to go as free agents. The culture in the building has to change to get where you want to go. That's not going to happen unless they do a total rebuild. It took several years to rebuild the team when Herb Kohl bought them. He created an environment where players liked playing for him, and in Milwaukee. He did his best to get quality coaches and front office personnel, and the players they brought in through the draft were what you'd expect at the time. Money wasn't there for teams like it is now, and the Bucks were one of those teams that operated every near on a negative balance sheet because they did not have the corporate sponsors hanging around to feed the cost monster.

Things are different now. The Bucks have a seriously good bottom line because the sharing plan in the NBA does work. Also, because of Kohl, they began getting that corporate sponsorship they so sorely needed.

That's why I felt so bad when Junior Bridgeman died. He was in for 10% on the team, and I'd bet a dollar to a donut his plan was to eventually get ownership into a group he would build that would do justice to the franchise. Junior never went halfway into anything, including his play on the floor for the Bucks.

Now it's going to take someone else with deep pockets that really loves the franchise to step up, and build a group, and buy the team, and make them a top team. I just hope I live long enough to see it. I've been a fan since that first game they ever played in Milwaukee. I was in the 4th row, behind the Bucks bench and I've been as loyal a fan as I could be, no matter where I lived. I've seen games in places like LA, Sacramento, The Bay Area of San Francisco, Chicago, Milwaukee, Dallas, Houston, San Antonio, Atlanta, and New Orleans. In some of those places beyond Milwaukee, more than once.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Well Bucks fans!

We got our answer on what the Bucks need to do to win!

Just shoot 68.9% every game!

 

[Sanguine camper]

It was humiliating watching the Bucks play Atlanta last night. Don't be fooled by that charge in the 4th quarter. It really meant nothing. This team does not play defense and doesn't seem to be coached to really know how to play defense as a unit. When they make a good defensive play, it's purely by accident.

I've watched Kuzma, Giannis, and several others turn into observers, just like Lillard has been. I guess the fight has gone out of them. It's really time to disband the entire roster and find a way to start over, and it's not by giving away the future like we've seen Horst do. They should become the "low-rent-district" team that people can trade huge contracts to along with draft picks, so they Bucks can build the pot in two or three years, to rise back to the top.

Sometimes, when you're rebuilding, you turn your resources into huge reserves of resources in draft capital to make it happen. When you get to the point that you can get a couple of lottery picks over a couple of years in a row, you could hit pay dirt by getting at the top of that list.

With huge draft capital, and then money available for free agents in a couple of years, they could really return to the top if they have the right GM and President pulling the strings and using the cap space creatively to ensure that they have totally rebuilt the core of the team and surrounded them with complementary talent.

Because of history, Milwaukee is not a great place for players to go as free agents. The culture in the building has to change to get where you want to go. That's not going to happen unless they do a total rebuild. It took several years to rebuild the team when Herb Kohl bought them. He created an environment where players liked playing for him, and in Milwaukee. He did his best to get quality coaches and front office personnel, and the players they brought in through the draft were what you'd expect at the time. Money wasn't there for teams like it is now, and the Bucks were one of those teams that operated every near on a negative balance sheet because they did not have the corporate sponsors hanging around to feed the cost monster.

Things are different now. The Bucks have a seriously good bottom line because the sharing plan in the NBA does work. Also, because of Kohl, they began getting that corporate sponsorship they so sorely needed.

That's why I felt so bad when Junior Bridgeman died. He was in for 10% on the team, and I'd bet a dollar to a donut his plan was to eventually get ownership into a group he would build that would do justice to the franchise. Junior never went halfway into anything, including his play on the floor for the Bucks.

Now it's going to take someone else with deep pockets that really loves the franchise to step up, and build a group, and buy the team, and make them a top team. I just hope I live long enough to see it. I've been a fan since that first game they ever played in Milwaukee. I was in the 4th row, behind the Bucks bench and I've been as loyal a fan as I could be, no matter where I lived. I've seen games in places like LA, Sacramento, The Bay Area of San Francisco, Chicago, Milwaukee, Dallas, Houston, San Antonio, Atlanta, and New Orleans. In some of those places beyond Milwaukee, more than once.

I used to be a huge Bucks fan but not anymore. It has more to do with the game than the team. As I've posted before, the NBA game is unwatchable in my opinion. I don't have patience to watch guys lower their shoulder and take 4 steps to the basket. Giannis is the most egregious at it. College basketball has deteriorated even worse now that most teams are made up of freshmen, sophomores and transfers.

I know older fans such as myself got spoiled watching Dr. J, Bird, Magic, Jordan and Kareem, but the modern game has a lot more to do with muscle than finesse. A lot of the NBA players look like they could play in the NFL.

 

[Heyjoe4]

Last night, Rivers had no choice but turn both Giannis and Brook Lopez loose. They both responded by getting an OT win against the Pistons. The moment he quit tinkering with Brook's game, he was ignited.

It pointed out even more to me that Doc is most of the problem with this team. He just doesn't know how to keep his players encouraged. Instead of getting a player past a slump, he starts tinkering with the lineup, and we end with guys on the floor who don't match up with the opposition, on either side of the ball. I think the final count was Giannis 59 points, and Brook had 29? The rest of the team scored very few more than Brook alone.

Playing without Lillard last night saw Doc playing games with every guy on the team who could play the 1 and 2 out there. Meanwhile, he put PC in a role of an "extra guy on the floor." Pretty much ignored for shots. Meanwhile, A.J. was throwing up bricks, and should have been put in a better position to regain his touch, but he wasn't.

Even if they run off a string of wins, this team ain't going nowhere, even if they do make the playoffs.

As usual I agree with your assessment V.

I’m not convinced Doc is a huge problem, and I base that off his coaching accomplishments. He’s like 7th all time in wins. Yeah that’s the past and the game has changed. I just think he needs time to build a new team in Lillard’s absence.

Giannis is now a point forward. If opponents throw “the wall at him” - he’ll find other open guys, as shown in his 20 assist. 35 pts, and 17 rebounds. No one has ever done that.


So I’m being patient, and accepting what we’ve got.

Playoffs? I’d be happy with them getting a win in the first series. Don’t see them going farther.

This will be a huge test for Doc and the team with little time to prepare.

After that, all I want is a new GM. The guys getting playing time now are playing well. Cold comfort, I know.

Could they trade Lillard to recoup draft picks? I hope so. Will Giannis stay? For one more season, yes.

It’s not ideal for a team that, with Holiday, had a brighter future. And the former Memphis HC got whacked. Will the Bucks give up on Rivers?

Too soon to tell. And how many dead money HCs can they tolerate?

Play out the season. Make it as entertaining as possible and hope we have a new GM next year. I don’t see them whacking Doc though.

 

[Voyageur]

As usual I agree with your assessment V.

I’m not convinced Doc is a huge problem, and I base that off his coaching accomplishments. He’s like 7th all time in wins. Yeah that’s the past and the game has changed. I just think he needs time to build a new team in Lillard’s absence.

Giannis is now a point forward. If opponents throw “the wall at him” - he’ll find other open guys, as shown in his 20 assist. 35 pts, and 17 rebounds. No one has ever done that.


So I’m being patient, and accepting what we’ve got.

Playoffs? I’d be happy with them getting a win in the first series. Don’t see them going farther.

This will be a huge test for Doc and the team with little time to prepare.

After that, all I want is a new GM. The guys getting playing time now are playing well. Cold comfort, I know.

Could they trade Lillard to recoup draft picks? I hope so. Will Giannis stay? For one more season, yes.

It’s not ideal for a team that, with Holiday, had a brighter future. And the former Memphis HC got whacked. Will the Bucks give up on Rivers?

Too soon to tell. And how many dead money HCs can they tolerate?

Play out the season. Make it as entertaining as possible and hope we have a new GM next year. I don’t see them whacking Doc though.

The problem that I see may be that ownership and the President see Horst as the right guy for the job, and others are failing him but not through his fault.

With luck, they might see the light, but if they do, and they change GM and Prez, the two new guys will come in with the caveat that they get to choose the Head Coach, not accept someone from the past. Strangely enough, Rivers doesn't really have that win it all label on him around the league. He's looked at more as a 2nd tier coach capable of leading a team but not capable of instructing a team on how to make it to the next level. Right or wrong, I'm not going to guess, but in all honesty, I haven't seen anything in what he's done that convinces me he's got the tools to make them winners.

 

[Heyjoe4]

The problem that I see may be that ownership and the President see Horst as the right guy for the job, and others are failing him but not through his fault.

With luck, they might see the light, but if they do, and they change GM and Prez, the two new guys will come in with the caveat that they get to choose the Head Coach, not accept someone from the past. Strangely enough, Rivers doesn't really have that win it all label on him around the league. He's looked at more as a 2nd tier coach capable of leading a team but not capable of instructing a team on how to make it to the next level. Right or wrong, I'm not going to guess, but in all honesty, I haven't seen anything in what he's done that convinces me he's got the tools to make them winners.

Maybe. But Rivers wasn't given much to work with. I'm sticking with the terrible decisions Horst made. More than anything, or anyone, he's why the Bucks are in this predicament.

 

[Voyageur]

Maybe. But Rivers wasn't given much to work with. I'm sticking with the terrible decisions Horst made. More than anything, or anyone, he's why the Bucks are in this predicament.

Eroded culture requires total change. The White Sox are going through that now, without ownership change and I think it's going to stall. Not because they want it to, but because when ownership remains the same, the hiring at the top stays the same, and you get people in the same mold as the previous ones running the show.

A prime example was the Packers when Ron Wolf came into the picture. He told them he wasn't interested in the job if the board didn't walk away and let him build a winning football culture. When they agreed, and followed that route, the team rose rapidly under his guidance because he knew where he wanted to go with his hirings. He was looking for people that fit the culture he wanted to create.

Herb Kohl created a working man's culture that could win games and be happy about how they were doing because they were the Bucks, and a Wisconsin institution. Now the emphasis has changed because of ownership. Kohl's down-home warmth towards community is gone from the team. Sad, but true. Let's face it. For a lot of years, we were happy knowing that the Bucks were competitive, and the players were known to be extremely community oriented. Now, being community oriented doesn't mean squat. They'd be jettisoned at the whim of a GM. Ask Holiday who said he loved the city and wanted to stay there to play out his career. They didn't even bother to tell him he was traded, he found out through the media. That is not the culture that wins.

The problem is that the ownership considers it nothing but a cash cow, and the President is nothing but a bean counter who sees no humanity in the organization, just dollars and cents, and the GM is a man who figures he's the brightest basketball executive alive, and acts and reacts on what appears to be knee-jerk reactions. As for the coaches, they seem to realize that they're going to get fired for not getting results with the players they're given so they go through the motions. Even Bud got to that point in the end because he saw Horst p***ing it all away with his stupid trades.

So, like I say, it needs to be a cleaning of the house.

But that's just my opinion.

 

[Heyjoe4]

Eroded culture requires total change. The White Sox are going through that now, without ownership change and I think it's going to stall. Not because they want it to, but because when ownership remains the same, the hiring at the top stays the same, and you get people in the same mold as the previous ones running the show.

A prime example was the Packers when Ron Wolf came into the picture. He told them he wasn't interested in the job if the board didn't walk away and let him build a winning football culture. When they agreed, and followed that route, the team rose rapidly under his guidance because he knew where he wanted to go with his hirings. He was looking for people that fit the culture he wanted to create.

Herb Kohl created a working man's culture that could win games and be happy about how they were doing because they were the Bucks, and a Wisconsin institution. Now the emphasis has changed because of ownership. Kohl's down-home warmth towards community is gone from the team. Sad, but true. Let's face it. For a lot of years, we were happy knowing that the Bucks were competitive, and the players were known to be extremely community oriented. Now, being community oriented doesn't mean squat. They'd be jettisoned at the whim of a GM. Ask Holiday who said he loved the city and wanted to stay there to play out his career. They didn't even bother to tell him he was traded, he found out through the media. That is not the culture that wins.

The problem is that the ownership considers it nothing but a cash cow, and the President is nothing but a bean counter who sees no humanity in the organization, just dollars and cents, and the GM is a man who figures he's the brightest basketball executive alive, and acts and reacts on what appears to be knee-jerk reactions. As for the coaches, they seem to realize that they're going to get fired for not getting results with the players they're given so they go through the motions. Even Bud got to that point in the end because he saw Horst p***ing it all away with his stupid trades.

So, like I say, it needs to be a cleaning of the house.

But that's just my opinion.

Hmmm, now that you mention it, who owns the Bucks? I know Wed Edens is an owner, but think ownership is held by more than just Edens.

As for your mention of Ron Wolf - yeah Bob Harlan hired him and let him do his own thing. That worked out well.

 

[weeds]

Well, they are assured a playoff spot ... not due to their win last night but due to someone else losing - don't recall who it was. ...but V, Joe and Sanguine ... you're all pretty much on the mark from my standpoint as well.

 

[weeds]

Hmmm, now that you mention it, who owns the Bucks? I know Wed Edens is an owner, but think ownership is held by more than just Edens.

Let's blame it on Aaron Rodgers.

 

[DoURant]

Let's blame it on Aaron Rodgers.

Does this mean I can wear my Aaron Rodgers "I Still Own You" T-Shirt to Bucks games, and it's technically still true?

 

[Voyageur]

Hmmm, now that you mention it, who owns the Bucks? I know Wed Edens is an owner, but think ownership is held by more than just Edens.

As for your mention of Ron Wolf - yeah Bob Harlan hired him and let him do his own thing. That worked out well.

Marc Lasrey, Jamie Dinan, Mike Fascitelli, and the infamous Jimmy Haslam, along with a lot of minority shareholders that include Aaron Rodgers and the late Junior Bridgeman who was in for 10%.

Haslam came on board as a co-owner because he brings a history of manipulating sports franchises into cash cows that can be sold at huge profits. Haslam owns the Cleveland Browns, and Columbus Crew in soccer. There's no doubt about it, the guy knows how to increase the value of sports franchises but that doesn't actually make them a better team, it means they become more valuable. Rest assured, that business acumen has been brought into the front offices in Milwaukee.

I believe they wanted Bridgeman onboard as a co-owner because he could bring to the table what all of them lacked. Knowledge of the Milwaukee fan base, and what they needed to do to keep seats full in the stadium. His sudden death really was a blow to the ownership.

Right now, if the Bucks did trade away Giannis, Lillard, and everyone who's getting a substantial salary, they could take on debt load from bad contracts other teams have, and bite the bullet for two or three years, and end up with a wealth of talent available to them through the draft. It would also make them an easier sell because the bottom line would be a lot better than it obviously is because of the huge salaries they're saddled with.

We have to remember that Herb Kohl turned down $650 mill for the team when he sold, and accepted $550 mill from the Lasrey group with the caveat that they could not move out of Milwaukee as long as a new stadium was built to house them within a certain period of time. That obligation was met, so now it falls on a question of attendance I believe. It would take the attendance tanking and a way to break the existing stadium lease to leave. Ending any question about them leaving is the fact that they just signed an extended lease agreement that's for the next 30 years. That is why I believe they brought Bridgeman onboard. His specifics were to look for local buyers who would partner with him to take control of the team. That, I'm afraid, died with him. We'll have to see where it goes.

Oops! I meant to say Harlan, who brought in Wolf who professed the same control issue as Harlan. It was a perfect team because they both knew how to do their jobs and didn't step on each other's toes. Too early in the morning when I posted it..... arrrgggghhhh!!!!!

One thing I wonder about in related to our teams. What happens within the Packer organization after Mark Murphy steps down. Despite the guy taking over already being part of the organization that doesn't always relate to business as usual but often means the new guy will mark his territory and it might not sit well with a lot of people throughout the organization.

 

[Heyjoe4]

Last night, Rivers had no choice but turn both Giannis and Brook Lopez loose. They both responded by getting an OT win against the Pistons. The moment he quit tinkering with Brook's game, he was ignited.

It pointed out even more to me that Doc is most of the problem with this team. He just doesn't know how to keep his players encouraged. Instead of getting a player past a slump, he starts tinkering with the lineup, and we end with guys on the floor who don't match up with the opposition, on either side of the ball. I think the final count was Giannis 59 points, and Brook had 29? The rest of the team scored very few more than Brook alone.

Playing without Lillard last night saw Doc playing games with every guy on the team who could play the 1 and 2 out there. Meanwhile, he put PC in a role of an "extra guy on the floor." Pretty much ignored for shots. Meanwhile, A.J. was throwing up bricks, and should have been put in a better position to regain his touch, but he wasn't.

Even if they run off a string of wins, this team ain't going nowhere, even if they do make the playoffs.

Well yeah this is a team that will be hard pressed to get past the first round in the playoffs. No secret there.

Rivers isn’t the biggest problem with the Bucks. Horst handed him a team of mismatched superstars - Giannis and esp Lillard are offensive weapons. Guys like Divincenzo and Grayson and others were traded away. They needed, and still need talent on defense.

The point is there has been very little thought put into building, or rebuilding the team since Holiday left.

Doc isn’t the best HC in the NBA. The Bucks need someone to give him a cast of guys who complement each other. They don’t have that.

 

[Heyjoe4]

Does this mean I can wear my Aaron Rodgers "I Still Own You" T-Shirt to Bucks games, and it's technically still true?

I don’t see why not.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

We have to remember that Herb Kohl turned down $650 mill for the team when he sold, and accepted $550 mill from the Lasrey group with the caveat that they could not move out of Milwaukee as long as a new stadium was built to house them within a certain period of time.

I'm just glad that Herb got to see them win another Championship. Quite a touching moment.

https://x.com/SWatsonTV/status/1740172137628127369

 

[Heyjoe4]

I'm just glad that Herb got to see them win another Championship. Quite a touching moment.

https://x.com/SWatsonTV/status/1740172137628127369

I've never seen this. Thanks. And it is touching. How fitting to give him a championship ring. Herb was the real deal, for the Bucks, for Milwaukee, for Wisconsin.

 

[Voyageur]

I'm just glad that Herb got to see them win another Championship. Quite a touching moment.

https://x.com/SWatsonTV/status/1740172137628127369

I have to admit, when they Herb got a ring, it showed the respect that was there for the man who made the dream even possible. He was an amazing man, whose philanthropy was amazing. Even the millions he gave to UW for the building of the Kohl Center in Madison. The list is endless. He and Proxmire are the only two Senators that I can remember in the modern history of Wisconsin who filed to run for Senator with the $100 payment, and never campaigned and still won by a landslide. Herb was far and away the ultimate Wisconsinite.

Hopefully, centuries from now, Wisconsinites will remember his name as one of the great leaders in Wisconsin.

 

[Voyageur]

I know people find it hard to believe that I don't believe in Doc Rivers as a HC. I'm going to cite something from the news today. It's about Drew Timme. The 6-10 swing man between power forward and center with the Nets. The guy the Bucks brought into camp then jettisoned because he wasn't producing the way he should despite the fact they didn't have time to work with him to improve facets of his game that would make him a decent NBA player.

At the time, the Bucks were, and still are, hurting for a solid power forward/center to be used with the combo of Giannis/Lopez/Portis. The keep trying to find someone yet there he was, Timme, and they did not bother to work with him to improve his game to reach the Bucks roster. Signing him was a good decision, but how he was used, and pretty much shoved to the side even with the Herd in the G-League was pure stupidity. That's on Rivers because he just plain couldn't identify the level of talent that needed to be unlocked to develop him into a solid player for Milwaukee. The article even shows the poor utilization the Herd had with Timme, and the changes when he went to the Nets organization. The contrast is like night and day. It shows the ineptitude of Horst and Rivers in dealing with the future. Neither one really sees the development aspect that's needed to create consistency in winning. The home-grown talent idea that we see in Giannis just isn't in their view.

Drew Timme is going to be a darned good NBA player, and quite frankly, the Bucks blew the opportunity of having the guy who could give the Bucks 8-10 years of quality play swinging between his two positions. This alone should be enough to show ownership how lousy their organization is run.

Then there's the case of Ryan Rollins. Every time the kid came into the game during the early season, he showed a spark of brilliance on the court. Now, in a larger role, which should have come 3 months ago, we can see what he has to offer. He plays defense, can create offense and opportunities for others, and for his size, crashes the boards quite well, and is fast on his feet. He can go to the boards and still recover downcourt to play defense. Something I never see with Lillard. Then there's Trent and Porter. With both Giannis and Lillard out, along with Portis gone, they lit it up last night. This is what they can always bring to the table. Why in H does Rivers keep kowtowing to Lillard's theory that he has to be out there more to be productive? He isn't more productive because of it. He's less productive from a defensive standpoint, because he's not giving maximum effort, he's reserving his energy for later. That does not work in the NBA any longer. The game is so fast that no matter how good you may be on offense, you need the speed and legs to transition to defense so much faster than you did just 10 years ago.

As an example, when you think back 10 to 15 years, at a situation where you were taking the ball out on your own end of the floor and there were 10 seconds left on the clock, you were going to have to hurry the shot. Today, they go end to end in 2.5 seconds and are going into a set play in another second and getting solid opportunities at that final bucket. Meanwhile, in Milwaukee, we're watching Lillard eating up the clock and then having to fire off a nearly impossible shot while double teamed, because that's what Doc called. They don't even have time to use a play because Lillard consumes all the time on the clock checking out the defense.

Then there's the under-utlization of Porter and Trent. These two should be getting more time on the floor along with Rollins. This is on Rivers too. He's also done everything he can to destroy Kuzma's game. That too is on Rivers. The guy is not a good coach.

I can guarantee you one thing. If I owned the Bucks, guys like Horst and Rivers wouldn't even be welcome in the stadium without buying a ticket. Neither one of them is really what they seem to think they are in their own minds.

Think about the Timme situation. In the end, it will point out exactly what I'm talking about. And Timme and his capability is just starting to be untapped. Think Giannis and the painstaking journey and then realize Timme might well have been an even quicker trajectory to stardom. In fact, he just might have been the guy to positionally replace Giannis if he's traded or decides he's had enough of losing in Milwaukee. Like they say in Italy, "Qué será, será."

qué será, será

https://athlonsports.com/college/gonzaga-bulldogs/gonzaga-basketball-drew-timme-nba-start-brooklyn-nets