Bucks 2024-25 Season Thread

[Heyjoe4]

The Bucks looked respectable against the Mavs tonight. Still having problems on defense. Kuzma could be putting up 30 points a game with Giannis and Dame. He just doesn't take too many shots, but he sure plays some shut down defense. Sims has shown some life, and others have been stepping up. I realize part of that reason is the Portis suspension but quite honestly, this is a good sign because they're getting more out of the rotations.

I'm not going to buy any tickets beyond the first round of the playoffs at this point, but it sure looks better today than it did the middle of December.

Good news V. As much as I hate to see Middleton leave, there comes a point where those trades just have to be made. Appreciate your observations on Kuzma. Sounds like a great addition.

 

[Heyjoe4]

The Bucks looked respectable against the Mavs tonight. Still having problems on defense. Kuzma could be putting up 30 points a game with Giannis and Dame. He just doesn't take too many shots, but he sure plays some shut down defense. Sims has shown some life, and others have been stepping up. I realize part of that reason is the Portis suspension but quite honestly, this is a good sign because they're getting more out of the rotations.

I'm not going to buy any tickets beyond the first round of the playoffs at this point, but it sure looks better today than it did the middle of December.

Thanks for the update V. Hated to see Middleton go, but that happens late in the careers of a lot of great players. He'll be remembered as one of the greatest Bucks.

Good news on Kuzma's play. Anyone on that team who can play solid D is welcome, so much the better if he can put up points.

Speaking of D, has Lillard always been this weak on D? He more than makes up for it with his offense. Just seems that in today's NBA, great players play great on both ends of the court. So don't get me wrong, I like Lillard, just don't see much D from him - almost the opposite of what Holiday did/does.

 

[Voyageur]

Thanks for the update V. Hated to see Middleton go, but that happens late in the careers of a lot of great players. He'll be remembered as one of the greatest Bucks.

Good news on Kuzma's play. Anyone on that team who can play solid D is welcome, so much the better if he can put up points.

Speaking of D, has Lillard always been this weak on D? He more than makes up for it with his offense. Just seems that in today's NBA, great players play great on both ends of the court. So don't get me wrong, I like Lillard, just don't see much D from him - almost the opposite of what Holiday did/does.

You're absolutely right on Lillard. He's never played defense. I think that's why he doesn't need to come out of games too often. He's only working out there half of the time he's on the floor.

Watching the Bucks, in Houston, it gave me a slightly different perspective. I can see where they lack on defense. The #2 & #3 has to wheel around the floor and be active to make up for Lillard's inability to play defense. That puts Lopez in a bad situation because he has to move up to contest the 10-12' jumpers, and Giannis has to surrender his strong side coverage. There's no rotation that makes up for that loss of pressure from Lillard.

To be honest, I hope they trade Lillard after this season. I'd go for a respectable player and at least one unprotected #1 picks and a second one that's protected, so switchable within one year.

 

[Heyjoe4]

You're absolutely right on Lillard. He's never played defense. I think that's why he doesn't need to come out of games too often. He's only working out there half of the time he's on the floor.

Watching the Bucks, in Houston, it gave me a slightly different perspective. I can see where they lack on defense. The #2 & #3 has to wheel around the floor and be active to make up for Lillard's inability to play defense. That puts Lopez in a bad situation because he has to move up to contest the 10-12' jumpers, and Giannis has to surrender his strong side coverage. There's no rotation that makes up for that loss of pressure from Lillard.

To be honest, I hope they trade Lillard after this season. I'd go for a respectable player and at least one unprotected #1 picks and a second one that's protected, so switchable within one year.

I agree on your assessment of Lillard. Maybe when he joined the NBA the focus was more on offense. I really don't know. But certainly in today's NBA guys need to play both ends of the court. I'm not dissing Lillard's prowess on offense. He's incredible at putting up points. But he doesn't play bad defense, he plays no defense.

And that's why I didn't like the Holiday for Lillard deal (there was more to it than that, but that was the heart of the deal). Holiday was a master on defense, and could play offense when needed. But even on nights when he wasn't scoring, Holiday was dealing assists. It was a truly bad deal for the Bucks, who would never have won the 2021 championship w/o Holiday.

 

[Voyageur]

And that's why I didn't like the Holiday for Lillard deal (there was more to it than that, but that was the heart of the deal). Holiday was a master on defense, and could play offense when needed. But even on nights when he wasn't scoring, Holiday was dealing assists. It was a truly bad deal for the Bucks, who would never have won the 2021 championship w/o Holiday.

This is when I was convinced that Horst is not a decent GM. He gave up someone who is a playmaker that creates opportunities for other teams to score. He can also score when asked to, and his defense was superb. I was immediately up in arms. Adding to it, Holiday had said, in an interview that he loved Milwaukee and wanted to spend the rest of his career in town. He also became heavily involved in area charitable works and was one of the best ambassadors for the game and the Bucks. Horst never saw one bit of that in his game, ignoring what he brought to the team in the championship year then erroneously blaming him for not repeating. It's Horst who's cost the Bucks over the years, not the personnel he was given.

 

[Heyjoe4]

This is when I was convinced that Horst is not a decent GM. He gave up someone who is a playmaker that creates opportunities for other teams to score. He can also score when asked to, and his defense was superb. I was immediately up in arms. Adding to it, Holiday had said, in an interview that he loved Milwaukee and wanted to spend the rest of his career in town. He also became heavily involved in area charitable works and was one of the best ambassadors for the game and the Bucks. Horst never saw one bit of that in his game, ignoring what he brought to the team in the championship year then erroneously blaming him for not repeating. It's Horst who's cost the Bucks over the years, not the personnel he was given.

Did Horst really come out and blame Holiday for not repeating? I missed that.

 

[Voyageur]

Did Horst really come out and blame Holiday for not repeating? I missed that.

Not directly but trading him to get Lillard was saying that Holiday didn't get the job done as expected. I think he was trying to say that he and he alone was the architect of this team and was the one who would make them even better. The years Holiday was with the Bucks he was in the top 10 for defensive player of the year. They lost all that he brought to the team by bringing in Lillard.

Instead of realizing it was time to trade Middleton before the second year after the championship was a horrible decision. Opting instead to trade Holiday and a ton of draft capital and getting what I consider a lesser over all player in Lillard because of his defense, was a catastrophe. I said, when he did it, the team was not going to go back up to the top because of the poor decisions Horst was making in structuring the roster. By trading Middleton, they could have had increased numbers of draft picks and the cap money available to actually work a couple of deals that would give them even more depth on the bench, where it was needed. All gone because of Horst's ego in believing he was the man who made it happen.

Even the firing of Bud was on Horst. He stripped Bud's power on the sideline and took away the building blocks he needed to right the ship. Instead of admitting he failed, he blamed it on Bud.

Now, don't get me wrong, I was never a Budenholzer fan. When he was fired, and Nick Nurse was available, I thought he was a good choice. Second, I thought they might go with Terry Stotts. Although he was smart enough to bring Stotts back into Milwaukee, he did it to work with a man who has no business coaching a team of 8-year-old kids at a YMCA. Adrian Griffin is a total idiot, and it looks like Horst believed he could "mold him into a great coach as he imagined one." The reality is that's exactly what he did. He brought in his sideline twin, another idiot. Then bringing in Doc Rivers? Gawd! It was all over. Don't expect to see anything of consequence out of this team until it's sold and everything surrounding them changes. Nothing about them spells success any longer.

 

[Heyjoe4]

Not directly but trading him to get Lillard was saying that Holiday didn't get the job done as expected. I think he was trying to say that he and he alone was the architect of this team and was the one who would make them even better. The years Holiday was with the Bucks he was in the top 10 for defensive player of the year. They lost all that he brought to the team by bringing in Lillard.

Instead of realizing it was time to trade Middleton before the second year after the championship was a horrible decision. Opting instead to trade Holiday and a ton of draft capital and getting what I consider a lesser over all player in Lillard because of his defense, was a catastrophe. I said, when he did it, the team was not going to go back up to the top because of the poor decisions Horst was making in structuring the roster. By trading Middleton, they could have had increased numbers of draft picks and the cap money available to actually work a couple of deals that would give them even more depth on the bench, where it was needed. All gone because of Horst's ego in believing he was the man who made it happen.

Even the firing of Bud was on Horst. He stripped Bud's power on the sideline and took away the building blocks he needed to right the ship. Instead of admitting he failed, he blamed it on Bud.

Now, don't get me wrong, I was never a Budenholzer fan. When he was fired, and Nick Nurse was available, I thought he was a good choice. Second, I thought they might go with Terry Stotts. Although he was smart enough to bring Stotts back into Milwaukee, he did it to work with a man who has no business coaching a team of 8-year-old kids at a YMCA. Adrian Griffin is a total idiot, and it looks like Horst believed he could "mold him into a great coach as he imagined one." The reality is that's exactly what he did. He brought in his sideline twin, another idiot. Then bringing in Doc Rivers? Gawd! It was all over. Don't expect to see anything of consequence out of this team until it's sold and everything surrounding them changes. Nothing about them spells success any longer.

Thanks for the explanation, and I agree. I didn't think of trading Middleton rather than Holiday at the time, but that would have been the better move and recouped some badly needed draft capital. Well, then again, I never thought Holiday would be traded. It took so much to get Holiday from the Pelicans. He found a team, a championship, and a home in Milwaukee that he loved and a community that loved him and his family.

Of course from there Horst made things worse - the coaching fiasco and then the trade for Crowder. Horrible moves all.

I thought Horst was trying to hire Nick Nurse. Where did Nurse end up? I do remember Rivers was only employable as an analyst after the Sixers fired him, until the Bucks came along. It's hard to imagine a scenario where so many things went bad after the championship season.

 

[Voyageur]

Nick is the 76ers coach. They aren't doing well. The roster he inherited wasn't exactly something to be happy about. It was a Doc Rivers team, and he was fired.

No matter whom the Bucks bring in as HC, the person is still saddled with Horst making poor decisions on roster. That's the biggest problem. Then comes Rivers.

 

[Heyjoe4]

Nick is the 76ers coach. They aren't doing well. The roster he inherited wasn't exactly something to be happy about. It was a Doc Rivers team, and he was fired.

No matter whom the Bucks bring in as HC, the person is still saddled with Horst making poor decisions on roster. That's the biggest problem. Then comes Rivers.

I hope this is Horst's last year in Milwaukee. He did a terrific job putting together a championship team and then panicked when they had an early playoff exit. Almost every move he made after that was wrong, seriously wrong.

 

[Voyageur]

I hope this is Horst's last year in Milwaukee. He did a terrific job putting together a championship team and then panicked when they had an early playoff exit. Almost every move he made after that was wrong, seriously wrong.

Actually, he was handed most of the tools that got them that championship, from Hammond before he turned the team over to Horst. His biggest "get" during that time leading up to the championship was Brook Lopez because what got as a back-up center ended up being a gem. That one-year contract turned into a 4-year signing during the off season. Bledsoe and Brogdan made a solid pair of guards on the floor. The problem was, in Horst's eyes, even though they weren't good enough. Even though they were 60-22, they lost in 6 to the Raptors in the East finals of the playoffs. The problem is, Horst traded Brogdan to the Pacers for draft picks. It was a two-pronged reason. Brogdan wanted to play point guard, and his new salary would put the Bucks in cap trouble, so he was dealt for what amounted to a first-round pick and a pair of second rounders. We ended up with Connaughton and DiVincenzo play SG. Neither was really starter material. Solid guys off the bench but not of any realistic value as starters. Donte has found that out in his stints in NY and now in Minnesota, where his best games are off the bench in spurts.

Then Horst started tinkering, but his getting Holiday was a solid move except he gave up our future in the process. He might have worked it where the Brogdan trade brought them a solid shooting guard prospect at the time. He didn't know how to do it.

The championship came because of the players and Holiday at the point. He was the last element needed. But, because they didn't repeat, Horst became indignant, as if Holiday was to blame, and even though Holiday said him and his wife wanted Milwaukee to be their home and retire from the Bucks, Horst dealt him away and he didn't find out about it except through the media. That was bad, and it did not resonate well with the players who had grown to really like playing with Holiday. It was the end of the line. The only person left for Horst to blame for failure was Bud, and then he hired a misfit who he immediately blamed for the bad play, and replaced him with a guy who can't do any better on the job. In the meantime, he at least had the common sense to get Stotts back as an assistant coach, but that ended because the idiot he'd hired as HC didn't want Stotts coaching, he wanted him listening to him as if he was the reincarnation of Red Auerbach.

Finis! End of story. We're back in the pits, and ownership is too stupid to make the changes needed to bring them back to the top. Apparently, they figure that as long as they make money and the team value continues to rise, they're happy as pigs in slop.

 

[Voyageur]

Watching the Bucks play Atlanta. Early in the game, the Bucks give Kuzma opportunities. He makes shots consistently and he claims rebounds at a solid rate. At the same time, he plays excellent defense and seems to be as adept as anyone on the team at dropping down into the paint on double teams and still recovering quick enough to protect his perimeter. But, at half time, is like they pull the switch and say, "Kyle, instead of taking shots, just stay out on the perimeter and act as a decoy so Dame and Giannis can get the shots. You'll draw enough attention to make it a little easier.

Then there's the curious situation where two guards who are better than one that's starting end up coming off the bench for some unknown reason. From what I've seen of Porter, he could give them some seriously good minutes and firepower if he was out there more. It makes me wonder if Doc is concerned that Giannis and Dame would get "a little upset" if they don't get the number of shots they are. Something just doesn't jive with what I see on the floor.

There are too many little things behind the scenes that bothers me in how he utilizes the lineup. I just wish I could identify what the real situation is. It's frustrating.

 

[DoURant]

Overall, it seems like they are a little more balanced in the scoring department, since the Kuzma/Middleton trade, along with the Portis suspension. But I along with everyone on this thread didn't like the Lillard/Jrue trade one bit, especially in the defensive side of the ball.

 

[Heyjoe4]

Actually, he was handed most of the tools that got them that championship, from Hammond before he turned the team over to Horst. His biggest "get" during that time leading up to the championship was Brook Lopez because what got as a back-up center ended up being a gem. That one-year contract turned into a 4-year signing during the off season. Bledsoe and Brogdan made a solid pair of guards on the floor. The problem was, in Horst's eyes, even though they weren't good enough. Even though they were 60-22, they lost in 6 to the Raptors in the East finals of the playoffs. The problem is, Horst traded Brogdan to the Pacers for draft picks. It was a two-pronged reason. Brogdan wanted to play point guard, and his new salary would put the Bucks in cap trouble, so he was dealt for what amounted to a first-round pick and a pair of second rounders. We ended up with Connaughton and DiVincenzo play SG. Neither was really starter material. Solid guys off the bench but not of any realistic value as starters. Donte has found that out in his stints in NY and now in Minnesota, where his best games are off the bench in spurts.

Then Horst started tinkering, but his getting Holiday was a solid move except he gave up our future in the process. He might have worked it where the Brogdan trade brought them a solid shooting guard prospect at the time. He didn't know how to do it.

The championship came because of the players and Holiday at the point. He was the last element needed. But, because they didn't repeat, Horst became indignant, as if Holiday was to blame, and even though Holiday said him and his wife wanted Milwaukee to be their home and retire from the Bucks, Horst dealt him away and he didn't find out about it except through the media. That was bad, and it did not resonate well with the players who had grown to really like playing with Holiday. It was the end of the line. The only person left for Horst to blame for failure was Bud, and then he hired a misfit who he immediately blamed for the bad play, and replaced him with a guy who can't do any better on the job. In the meantime, he at least had the common sense to get Stotts back as an assistant coach, but that ended because the idiot he'd hired as HC didn't want Stotts coaching, he wanted him listening to him as if he was the reincarnation of Red Auerbach.

Finis! End of story. We're back in the pits, and ownership is too stupid to make the changes needed to bring them back to the top. Apparently, they figure that as long as they make money and the team value continues to rise, they're happy as pigs in slop.

Sorry V. I didn't intend to et you riled up. But then I read your posy and I got riled up, and for all the reasons you state.

I didn't know that Holiday wasn't informed of the trade by the Bucks. That's just bad form, in any business.

 

[Heyjoe4]

Overall, it seems like they are a little more balanced in the scoring department, since the Kuzma/Middleton trade, along with the Portis suspension. But I along with everyone on this thread didn't like the Lillard/Jrue trade one bit, especially in the defensive side of the ball.

Agreed. Middleton probably should have been traded a few years ago. But the team is better since the trade for Kuzma.

And I think the entire city of Milwaukee is pissed at Horst for trading Holiday away, and following it up with two bad HC decisions.

Well I hope the Bucks can put together a run in the playoffs. The guys are getting older (we all are.....) and these opportunities will start to fade unless some significant changes are made off season. A rebuild? Maybe and that would involve trading Giannis. Hard, if not impossible to get behind that.

 

[Voyageur]

Sorry V. I didn't intend to et you riled up. But then I read your posy and I got riled up, and for all the reasons you state.

I didn't know that Holiday wasn't informed of the trade by the Bucks. That's just bad form, in any business.

For some reason, the local Bucks media tried to sweep all of it under the rug, acting like Horst was a miracle worker. I wasn't a bit upset about what you said. I just figured I should illuminate the whole thing because it's not all that well publicized.

Junior Bridgeman bought 10% ownership in the Bucks last fall. I think it was more than just buying in, because his net worth has shot up to over $1 billion. I think he's angling to buy more, and eventually bring in other new owners with the intent of turning the franchise into a winner, like the Lakers. Junior is the most brilliant businessman who's come out of the NBA. Shaq and a couple of others may be worth more in wealth, but Bridgeman does his work behind the scenes, without notoriety, or applause. He's a shrewd person whose first priority is the people he "works with," in his own words, not the people others would say, "work for him." He honors everyone's ethics and sacrifice.

If he does find investors to go into it with him, expect him to own the Bucks by 2027, and watch the fireworks as he rebuilds them with an eye for a dynasty. This is the only man I'd entrust with the future of the team to be honest. I do think it's going to happen. The 10% is just the start. The only problem is that Junior is in his 70s, so he's going to have to hire the best minds in the business to work with him, and make sure that type of hierarchy remains intact when he's gone from the scene. I wonder if he doesn't have a son, or daughter, who would follow in his footsteps.