Aaron Jones on this team

[tynimiller]

I think self-motivation and coaching is going to play a key role in Stokes career. He has the physical attributes to be an average CB in the NFL, but needs to avoid injuries, get good coaching and motivate himself to the next level. I fear that Stokes is another example of a guy that played on a really good team (Georgia) and it inflated his skills/rating in the draft.

I'll be honest, Stokes wasn't a guy I would have chosen in the first round but that rookie year, I honestly don't recall a rookie growing more in one single season than he did.

Early on he was making big plays in coverages but only because of his catch up skills provided by his god given speed ability...but his technique with hands, hips/feet and anticipation grew and by the end of the year he was in position time and time again due to his decision making or footwork winning a rep. He was a stellar rookie really thrust into starting at arguably one of the hardest positions to play in the NFL.

 

[Pkrjones]

Good points, I guess I had Fackrell's 3rd season stuck in my head. That said, he did contribute quite a bit more on defense than Burks. However, as you rightfully point out, it wasn't consistent, nor during all 4 years in GB.

Fackrell played 1 season in NYG, & then a season in LAC, where he continued to be effective on the edge. Over those 2 yrs he had 7 sacks, 14 QB hits, 51 tackles. A knee injury wiped out his '21 season after 5 games, & then he was IR'd in preseason of '22 ending his career. Imho, both he & Burks performed as well or better with future teams, not 3rd round busts in any way.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Fackrell played 1 season in NYG, & then a season in LAC, where he continued to be effective on the edge. Over those 2 yrs he had 7 sacks, 14 QB hits, 51 tackles. A knee injury wiped out his '21 season after 5 games, & then he was IR'd in preseason of '22 ending his career. Imho, both he & Burks performed as well or better with future teams, not 3rd round busts in any way.

Good info on Fackrell thanks. I still consider Burks as a pick that didn't net the Packers a good return for their investment.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

I'll be honest, Stokes wasn't a guy I would have chosen in the first round but that rookie year, I honestly don't recall a rookie growing more in one single season than he did.

Early on he was making big plays in coverages but only because of his catch up skills provided by his god given speed ability...but his technique with hands, hips/feet and anticipation grew and by the end of the year he was in position time and time again due to his decision making or footwork winning a rep. He was a stellar rookie really thrust into starting at arguably one of the hardest positions to play in the NFL.

Stokes is a tough call, because injuries have played a role in his up and down 4 years in GB. Seems we have had that issue with too many of our CB's in recent years. I'm just glad that the Packers didn't pick up his 5th year option. I still think for less than starter money, he might be worth bringing back on an incentive laden 2-3 year deal.

 

[gopkrs]

Stokes from the start had a pension for getting beat deep imho

 

[tynimiller]

Stokes is a tough call, because injuries have played a role in his up and down 4 years in GB. Seems we have had that issue with too many of our CB's in recent years. I'm just glad that the Packers didn't pick up his 5th year option. I still think for less than starter money, he might be worth bringing back on an incentive laden 2-3 year deal.

Yup, I fully support a one year essentially minimum with small bonus to see what's left there.

 

[tynimiller]

Stokes from the start had a pension for getting beat deep imho

Wait did you mean something different by chance? Stokes IMO plays it far too safe as a CB and with that often times is in position to stop a pass rather than intercept one it seems and with his speed often times doesn't allow a high propensity of deep completions.

His rookie year when targeted he gave up only 11.9 yards per completion. Jaire in his best year according to most (2020) gave up 9.5 yards per completion just for reference of an all pro level performance....Jaire's second best season was 11.6 (2021) and otherwise has never been under 13.

Stokes' main issues has been health/availability and he plays like he has no hands IMO. I might have completely misunderstood your post though and apologies ahead of time if I pulled these stats for no reason and is unrelated LOL

 

[gopkrs]

Wait did you mean something different by chance? Stokes IMO plays it far too safe as a CB and with that often times is in position to stop a pass rather than intercept one it seems and with his speed often times doesn't allow a high propensity of deep completions.

His rookie year when targeted he gave up only 11.9 yards per completion. Jaire in his best year according to most (2020) gave up 9.5 yards per completion just for reference of an all pro level performance....Jaire's second best season was 11.6 (2021) and otherwise has never been under 13.

Stokes' main issues has been health/availability and he plays like he has no hands IMO. I might have completely misunderstood your post though and apologies ahead of time if I pulled these stats for no reason and is unrelated LOL

Though we did not get nailed by it, I thought Stokes bit on double moves quite a bit. I was not as enamored with him that first year as many.

 

[tynimiller]

Though we did not get nailed by it, I thought Stokes bit on double moves quite a bit. I was not as enamored with him that first year as many.

Does it happen sure, but I guess our pressure must have been insane for him to get beat deep as readily as you saw and not get hurt by it.

 

[Heyjoe4]

oh for sure I think many fans have unrealistic expectations of nearly every round draft pick before day 3…and many even beyond that into Day3

Deguara is the perfect example and is why I’d never argue was a L or a W and gladly concede him as I eluded to. If he had been picked in the 4th the amount of people whose view of him would change would blow many people’s minds. Many even on this board would magically change their opinion.

While we agree on Deguara essentially, Oren absolutely is one we disagree on and he cannot be used as part of the defense of the curse IMO. At worst or best depending on case you have to put him down as a toss up or tie.

Regardless of when he was picked, Deguarra was JAG, at his best, imo.

All the other solid picks by Gluten were/are worthy of mention. Just don't see it with Deguarra.

 

[swhitset]

You and I differ on our expectations for the return on a 3rd round investment.



I know you were high on Josiah, but I never was, nor did his year in Jacksonville change my opinion. I would never use the term "solid" with this guy.



While it does seem that Burks has carved himself out a career in the NFL, it wasn't as a Packer. An OK special teamer in GB, but a liability on defense. To me, he wasn't a solid investment of a 3rd round pick for the Packers. I'm not a fan that gives a GM credit for drafting a guy that eventually produces, for another team. That tells me 1 of 2 things. Either the coaching in Green Bay is subpar and/or the scouting of said player wasn't good.

At least we agree that both Sternberger and Rodgers were complete and utter whiffs by Gute.

It’s funny…. when I think of Packers 3rd round busts … the first person I think of is Burks. Remember the Packers actually traded back UP into the 3rd round to draft him.

 

[Pkrjones]

It’s funny…. when I think of Packers 3rd round busts … the first person I think of is Burks. Remember the Packers actually traded back UP into the 3rd round to draft him.

Odd that you'd think of Burks rather than Amari Rodgers or Jace Sternberger, 1st. The latter 2 didn't even make it thru their rookie 3-year deal, whereas Burks is a Super Bowl starter & champion.

 

[swhitset]

Odd that you'd think of Burks rather than Amari Rodgers or Jace Sternberger, 1st. The latter 2 didn't even make it thru their rookie 3-year deal, whereas Burks is a Super Bowl starter & champion.

Only because Burks came earlier.. and I distinctly remember being surprised with the pick after watching his college tape. I didn’t see anything at the time that excited me…. nor did he surprise me with his time as a Packer. As for more recent times… the most memorable thing for me is a hit on our returner that resulted in a TD for the Eagles…. that he was subsequently fined for a couple weeks too late.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

It’s funny…. when I think of Packers 3rd round busts … the first person I think of is Burks. Remember the Packers actually traded back UP into the 3rd round to draft him.

I think Sternberger stands out the most for me. It was during a time when we really needed help at TE. Same thing when Jace was followed by Deguara. I am guessing those 2 picks at TE was why Gute decided to double down at the position when he picked Musgrave in the 2nd and Kraft in the 3rd a few drafts later in 2023.

Is it just me or does it seem to take Gute 2-3 picks at a positions to hit? Races to my @AmishMafia 341st Draft contest and fills in the names of a lot of CB's and DL's.

 

[Sanguine camper]

Unless you get real compensation, what a guy does on another team shouldn't influence whether a pick is a success or not. The GM isn't drafting for other teams. Burks was a bust in GB. The investment in him didn't pay off. Other 3rd round busts using the same team building logic were Montravious Adams. Deguara, Amari Rodgers. Sternberger and the oft mentioned Burks to name a few. Lloyd and Hopper had rookie seasons that fit in well with the pantheon of busts, but for now, time will tell. When a player like Burks doesn't produce, it creates a roster hole because the GM needs to further invest draft or cap space resources in the position thereby skipping other positions of need. That's the benchmark. Had Burks played well and produced, Gute could've spent the pick on Walker on perhaps an offensive lineman. Maybe in that scenario, GB's offensive line is able to have the depth to not collapse against the Eagles in the playoffs.

 

[gopkrs]

Unless you get real compensation, what a guy does on another team shouldn't influence whether a pick is a success or not. The GM isn't drafting for other teams. Burks was a bust in GB. The investment in him didn't pay off. Other 3rd round busts using the same team building logic were Montravious Adams. Deguara, Amari Rodgers. Sternberger and the oft mentioned Burks to name a few. Lloyd and Hopper had rookie seasons that fit in well with the pantheon of busts, but for now, time will tell. When a player like Burks doesn't produce, it creates a roster hole because the GM needs to further invest draft or cap space resources in the position thereby skipping other positions of need. That's the benchmark. Had Burks played well and produced, Gute could've spent the pick on Walker on perhaps an offensive lineman. Maybe in that scenario, GB's offensive line is able to have the depth to not collapse against the Eagles in the playoffs.

Sometimes it's just the fault of coaching imho. Whether or not the player makes it elsewhere in the NFL

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Sometimes it's just the fault of coaching imho. Whether or not the player makes it elsewhere in the NFL

While I agree with you, I would add that injuries and a players ability to develop are also 2 very large factors. Again, I don't like overstating it, but I think a lot of the top teams in the NCAA are dominated by 4 and 5 star athletes. Some of them thrive in college football and are well prepared for the NFL. Others may come in physically gifted, but don't have the mental makeup to develop a lot further and become solid NFL players. Sometimes that trait is somewhat covered-up by talented teammates and really good coaching.

 

[Sanguine camper]

Sometimes it's just the fault of coaching imho. Whether or not the player makes it elsewhere in the NFL

That could very well be true but ultimately the GM should have a lot of influence over the coaching. He does pick the HC and is probably involved with the HC in hiring the coordinators. I look at Gute kind of like a HR hitter in baseball. When he's on, he hits some tape measure home runs, but he also has his share of strikeouts. That might just be the nature of being a GM but his dazzling successes often lead many of us to wonder about the busts because I don't think his success is based upon lucky gambles.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

That might just be the nature of being a GM but his dazzling successes often lead many of us to wonder about the busts because I don't think his success is based upon lucky gambles.

I don't think any GM is perfect when it comes to the draft. They are also relying heavily on their scouts, coaches, other sources for their information, as well as a bit of luck. Year after year we see high picks flame out early and late picks exceed expectations, just part of the human experience.

One thing I think Gute has done a really good job with, is using other avenues to fill roster needs. He isn't afraid to sign a FA or snag other teams practice squad players. His success rate in the markets outside of the draft is probably what has made the Packers pretty successful during his tenure.

 

[Sanguine camper]

I don't think any GM is perfect when it comes to the draft. They are also relying heavily on their scouts, coaches, other sources for their information, as well as a bit of luck. Year after year we see high picks flame out early and late picks exceed expectations, just part of the human experience.

One thing I think Gute has done a really good job with, is using other avenues to fill roster needs. He isn't afraid to sign a FA or snag other teams practice squad players. His success rate in the markets outside of the draft is probably what has made the Packers pretty successful during his tenure.

Gute does a great job in a number of areas IMO.
1. He's probably the best GM in the league in finding value in rounds 4-7. I don't need to belabor that point.
2. He does an excellent job in using free agency to acquire real difference makers for guys who are in the prime of their career.
3. He does a great job in vetting players who are good teammates. Rarely does he pick a Prima Donna. Almost all the Packers under Gute are guys you really want to root for. Makes it even easier to be a Packer fan.
4. He either has a good eye for QB potential or listens to people that do. Getting Willis saved the season and Love has a very high floor.

Gute has his drawbacks too. Those have been discussed on this forum and most viewers are well aware of them. Obviously, the Packers haven't won a SB under Gute so he has plenty of things he can improve upon.