2024-2025 Season Studs n Duds

[Magooch]

Given the absolute crap we had on Special teams prior to Bisaccia, I am actually ok with him being retained. I also would have been fine with him being fired, if they had a better coach in mind. I read an article yesterday and the Packers special teams actually wasn't as bad as our Packer eye test feels it was. I don't blame Bisaccia for the Narveson debacle, that's on Gute, as is the signing of Brandon McManus. Punting by Whelan was solid for the most part.

Funny enough, for me I'd say it was the opposite - the eye test was better than the "numbers," if you will. In 2022 we finished 22nd in Gosselin's special teams rankings (that was an improvement from last in 2021). Last year we fell to 29th. The 2024 rankings have not yet been released, but I am not holding my breath on much...
We finished:
24th in yards per punt return
14th in yards per kick return
26th in net punt yards (punt yards minus return yards/touchbacks) / 27th in net yards per punt
30th in kickoff return yards against
Etc, etc.
Some of those aren't AWFUL numbers in their own right, but most are still decidedly below-average and certainly nothing that would merit an extension a year early. Probably of equal concern IMO is the retention of the role as assistant head coach and addition of "game management" or whatever. To be fair I'm not entirely sure if anyone could tell me exactly what Bisaccia's responsibilities for either of these roles are, but suffice to say I'm not sure we're getting our money's worth from the league's highest-paid ST coordinator.

What I am waiting to hear, but don't expect it, is a change in the offensive play calling. If I am being honest with myself, I don't think it happens and Matt will once again try to call plays. Ultimately, this is what will either make or break him in Green Bay.

This is kind of what concerns me about the Getsy appointment. Well, "concerns" is probably too strong a word, but i dunno what else to call it. Just feels like recycling the same old things we've already tried before. Why should we expect different this time around?

 

[pacmaniac]

It's probably more the media than the NFL itself that wants to ignore the pre-Super Bowl era.

Here's an NFL.com article talking about the Chiefs three-peat attempt and they acknowledge the Packers won 3 straight championships.

Chiefs' unprecedented three-peat attempt includes being first team to play on six days of week since 1927

"Not only has no NFL team ever won three straight Super Bowls, but none of the eight teams that have won back-to-back Lombardis ever returned to the big game the following year. Three of those squads lost in the ensuing conference title game, two lost in the Divisional Round and three missed the postseason altogether.

Of course, the NFL didn't start in the Super Bowl era, so the Chiefs might be looking to set Super Bowl history, but they're likewise chasing the man whose name adorns the Super Bowl trophy.

Vince Lombardi's Packers of 1965-67 were the last league team to win three NFL titles in a row, claiming an NFL Championship in '65 ahead of winning the first two Super Bowls -- including Super Bowl I against the Chiefs."

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Funny enough, for me I'd say it was the opposite - the eye test was better than the "numbers," if you will. In 2022 we finished 22nd in Gosselin's special teams rankings (that was an improvement from last in 2021). Last year we fell to 29th. The 2024 rankings have not yet been released, but I am not holding my breath on much...
We finished:
24th in yards per punt return
14th in yards per kick return
26th in net punt yards (punt yards minus return yards/touchbacks) / 27th in net yards per punt
30th in kickoff return yards against
Etc, etc.
Some of those aren't AWFUL numbers in their own right, but most are still decidedly below-average and certainly nothing that would merit an extension a year early. Probably of equal concern IMO is the retention of the role as assistant head coach and addition of "game management" or whatever. To be fair I'm not entirely sure if anyone could tell me exactly what Bisaccia's responsibilities for either of these roles are, but suffice to say I'm not sure we're getting our money's worth from the league's highest-paid ST coordinator.


This is kind of what concerns me about the Getsy appointment. Well, "concerns" is probably too strong a word, but i dunno what else to call it. Just feels like recycling the same old things we've already tried before. Why should we expect different this time around?

Again, I wouldn't have been surprised had Bisaccia been fired as well. I think most of us think that if you fire a guy, you automatically upgrade yourself by hiring a new guy. Same with players. It's definitely more complicated than just a "fire and hire to improve" when it comes to coaches and players. If the Packers could have replaced Bisaccia with a Darren Rizzi, than I would have been happy. But if it was to bring in another Slocum, Drayton, Mennenga or Zook, no thanks

In sticking to the whole theme of Bisaccia, Getsy and MLF. Maybe MLF tried to get too much out of Rich and decided to bring in Getsy to take things off of RB's plate? As a fan, I have way more complaints about MLF's offense than I do about the Packers special teams.

At the end of the day, Bisaccia has been known to be a solid ST coach. Was his taking on too many other tasks and not paying close enough attention to Special Teams a problem? Was it a problem with a lot of young guys playing special teams? Or was it all on RB for just being a bad coach? Nobody out of Green Bay is going to tell us the truth there. However, extending him out another year on a contract that would have ended next year, tells me the Packers don't think he is a bad coach.

 

[rmontro]

It's probably more the media than the NFL itself that wants to ignore the pre-Super Bowl era.

Here's an NFL.com article talking about the Chiefs three-peat attempt and they acknowledge the Packers won 3 straight championships.

Chiefs' unprecedented three-peat attempt includes being first team to play on six days of week since 1927

I'm stunned. Stunned, I tell you, that anyone even bothered to mention that Lombardi's Packers pulled off a threepeat of NFL championships. Of course, it leaves out their previous threepeat in the '30s, and doesn't mention that no other team aside from GB has ever done it. It just says Lombardi's Packers were the last to do it.

 

[gopkrs]

The NBA honors its past with the Celtics and Lakers and the NHL with the Oilers and Canadiens. I don't know why the NFL ignores its past before the SB era. The NYG won 4 championships and appeared in 5 before 1965 so your theory about the NY media doesn't hold water. But you are right, it is inexplicable why the league doesn't value its history like other sports do.

And we won 5 out of 7 championships in the 60s. The ones in the 30s, there weren't any playoffs but yes it was 3.

 

[rmontro]

And we won 5 out of 7 championships in the 60s. The ones in the 30s, there weren't any playoffs but yes it was 3.

That is also unmatched, so far. Not that I'm keeping track or anything...

 

[milani]

If he hung in the pocket, he gets sacked without even throwing the ball. That ball hit his tight end right in the hands. That wasn’t a choke by Allen.

I believe the back coming out to the Left would have been open but it would have had to be a quick swing pass. But Allen was not looking that way and the back turned his head a little late. There was only one Chief on that side of the play and there was someone there who could have made a block. They only needed 5 yards.

 

[TiberiusSpock]

I think it's safe to say the Packers took a step back this season. What is of major concern is the Packers played their poorest football at the end of the season. I also believe if Josh Jacobs didn't have a spectacular season we'd be having very different conversations: I think it boils down to next season to avoid massive changes for the 2026 season. My guess is Jordan Love needs to have, at the least, a very good season to stay with the Packers and may not make it to 2026 if he doesn't.

The only person I see as being safe for at least two seasons is LaFleur but, even he, needs to not have two poor seasons or he'll be in the hot seat or, perhaps, gone as well. I think that's unlikely to happen and I think Love getting better is a 50/50 proposition but the Packers should have gotten better this season and they did not.

If the Packers go to the Super Bowl next year, that wouldn't surprise me. If they don't make the payoffs next year, that wouldn't surprise me either. Next season will be fun to watch as it could go either way.

 

[rmontro]

I think it's safe to say the Packers took a step back this season. What is of major concern is the Packers played their poorest football at the end of the season.

It's unusual too, the Packers usually progress as the season goes on. This year it was like the wheels came off, although the defense played well (another anomaly).

 

[gopkrs]

It's unusual too, the Packers usually progress as the season goes on. This year it was like the wheels came off, although the defense played well (another anomaly).

They had injuries with W/O, linebacker and Jaire and others in the D backfield. Those were big imho. The D line played much better but the pass rush wasn't good.

 

[TiberiusSpock]

They had injuries with W/O, linebacker and Jaire and others in the D backfield. Those were big imho. The D line played much better but the pass rush wasn't good.

It doesn't make any difference how great you are if you can't play, there's a point where you have to cut your losses. They'll probably give Watson another year but unless he stays healthy and plays very well, they''ll probably have no choice but to cut him loose. I hope he stays healthy.

 

[tynimiller]

It doesn't make any difference how great you are if you can't play, there's a point where you have to cut your losses. They'll probably give Watson another year but unless he stays healthy and plays very well, they''ll probably have no choice but to cut him loose. I hope he stays healthy.

Just curious you think Tee Higgins is the best available FA WR and likely will get a lot of $?

 

[gopkrs]

Just curious you think Tee Higgins is the best available FA WR and likely will get a lot of $?

Just wanted to put in my 2 cents about him. He's an xlnt receiver and he will be wanting a lot of receiver money.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Just wanted to put in my 2 cents about him. He's an xlnt receiver and he will be wanting a lot of receiver money.

A lot more money than I would want to see the Packers spend on a WR.

I like Higgins, but I think some of his success can be attributed to playing with Chase and Burrow. The Bengals spent 2 high picks on those 3 players and it paid off for them. Higgins will no doubt land something near $30M/year. I would rather see the Packers use the draft and possibly sign a cheaper, but old FA WR like DeAndre Hopkins. Hopkins is a savvy vet that knows how to work the middle of the field. I think that would be a benefit to Love and the offense.

 

[Magooch]

Here's the trouble for me. I think Watson's injury makes it as such that we now have TWO big needs at WR.

With Watson out (and I am assuming it's for basically all of 2025) we don't really have any great options for that stretch-the-field, keep the defenses honest type of guy. Watson was a great fit for that role (#3 in ADOT). And IMO that role can be replaced at a reasonable cost, whether it is thru free agency or a mid-round draft pick. Someone like MVS does make some sense, or off the top of my head guys like Demarcus Robinson, Darius Slayton, Hollywood Brown, come to mind as some guys who might be a decent and affordable deep threat type of guy. And if that is the ONLY need we had at WR, I think we would not have a lot of trouble getting it filled relatively affordably (again, take a flyer on a mid-round pick or sign a relatively cheap FA)

But, like I said...the trouble is that IMO that's not our only need at WR. Myself and others have said at length before that Love doesn't have a true "#1" WR and instead just has a collection of guys who are probably more like 2s, 3s, and 4s, all of whom can *occasionally* elevate themselves on a given day but none of whom are doing so consistently. We don't have that sort of "security blanket" player who can be a high-volume go-to guy as of yet. For instance...Doubs is our per-game targets leader at roughly 5.5 per game. That is good for 67th most targets per game in the league this year. It's nice to be able to spread the ball around, but IMO we've been hurt repeatedly by not having one sole "alpha" WR that you can feel confident to make a play when all the chips are down (or that you can feel pretty certain will be an option on the majority of passing downs, at least). And so for me that is what speaks more in favor of making a "splash" signing like Higgins or a trade for Metcalf or something along those lines.

And so of course unfortunately a "field stretcher" type of player is rarely going to have a ton of overlap with an every-down, "high-volume" #1 type of WR. Picking up a bargain FA or spending a mid-round pick on a deep threat field-stretching guy is just fine but it's probably not going to do anything really to address our other need at WR, in my estimation. And in the same way, bringing in a vet like Davante or Deandre probably gets you that go-to guy for the short term, but doesn't really replace Watson's deep threat abilities IMO. So it's hard for me to see a scenario where both needs are filled by adding just one player I guess.

 

[tynimiller]

It doesn't make any difference how great you are if you can't play, there's a point where you have to cut your losses. They'll probably give Watson another year but unless he stays healthy and plays very well, they''ll probably have no choice but to cut him loose. I hope he stays healthy.

Just wanted to put in my 2 cents about him. He's an xlnt receiver and he will be wanting a lot of receiver money.

The reason I bring up Higgins is everyone mostly agrees he's one of the top targets.....yet absolutely blast Watson for claimed availability issues....

Last three seasons Watson has appeared in 38 games...Higgins 40.

 

[rmontro]

But, like I said...the trouble is that IMO that's not our only need at WR. Myself and others have said at length before that Love doesn't have a true "#1" WR and instead just has a collection of guys who are probably more like 2s, 3s, and 4s

Some said we didn't need a true #1. Even I liked the idea that Love could progress through his reads without getting into the habit of trying to force it to a particular guy. Unfortunately, this last season seems to suggest that this particular approach didn't work. Not effectively enough, anyway.

 

[tynimiller]

Some said we didn't need a true #1. Even I liked the idea that Love could progress through his reads without getting into the habit of trying to force it to a particular guy. Unfortunately, this last season seems to suggest that this particular approach didn't work. Not effectively enough, anyway.

Wicks failed to grab (pun intended) the chance at this. His ability to get open is crazy....top tier elite WR level ****....but his hands have got to get better or he will be lucky to find a path into a second contract.

 

[gopkrs]

Wicks failed to grab (pun intended) the chance at this. His ability to get open is crazy....top tier elite WR level ****....but his hands have got to get better or he will be lucky to find a path into a second contract.

And when Watson plays; he opens everyone else just a bit. And he was catching the ball very well. I don't mind if they need to baby him a little bit as far as quick passes to the outside and especially the deadly power sweep. He can still block pretty well on those plays. Does not bother me in the slightest if he is not the runner on those crummy plays. Interesting that Higgins has not been playing any more than him.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

But, like I said...the trouble is that IMO that's not our only need at WR. Myself and others have said at length before that Love doesn't have a true "#1" WR and instead just has a collection of guys who are probably more like 2s, 3s, and 4s, all of whom can *occasionally* elevate themselves on a given day but none of whom are doing so consistently. We don't have that sort of "security blanket" player who can be a high-volume go-to guy as of yet. For instance...Doubs is our per-game targets leader at roughly 5.5 per game. That is good for 67th most targets per game in the league this year. It's nice to be able to spread the ball around, but IMO we've been hurt repeatedly by not having one sole "alpha" WR that you can feel confident to make a play when all the chips are down (or that you can feel pretty certain will be an option on the majority of passing downs, at least). And so for me that is what speaks more in favor of making a "splash" signing like Higgins or a trade for Metcalf or something along those lines.

While I agree with the fact that in 2023 and 2024 Love operated the offense without a Pro Bowl type #1 WR, I think people might need to slow their roll on the Packers going out and spending a ton of money to sign one. Both Doubs and Reed are just starting to mature and having a young, inexperienced QB like Love didn't really help with that process. Giving up on the possibility of these 2 receivers by committing $30M/season to a guy like Higgins would be a mistake IMO.

Now some might argue that Higgins could make both Doubs and Reed better, as well as the offense. I think the opposite could also happen. I also just am not a big fan of Higgins.

I'd prefer spending a lot less money on a 30+ year old veteran and see if that brings a 3rd (Reed) and a 4th year (Doubs) guy along faster, while improving the growth of Love and the offense.

I also don't like the 2025 WR Free Agent market, its very thin at the top. I think if after the 2025 season, Doubs, Reed and whomever, don't make steps forward the 2026 FA WR market will have a much better group to choose from.

2026 NFL Free Agents

Tracking the status and signings of all NFL free agents.

www.spotrac.com

 

[gopkrs]

Dantes brought up the guy from the giants. What about him?

 

[Magooch]

I don't know if it has to be Higgins per se specifically. But I guess my point is just...if you have the opportunity to sign a *proven* player for a given position, I'd rather do that than put your hopes on a "maybe". I mean, that's pretty much what we did this year, in some ways (and the year before that...and maybe even arguably the year before that one with Cobb and Lazard as the only "proven" guys, lol).

Especially if we think we could get some kind of decent return for a guy like a Reed or a Doubs. A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush, as they say. But, I dunno. There's not any one clear answer for me. It's true that next year's crop will likely be better, but it's not like we're the only team who will be aware of this and (potentially) in need of a WR too. I don't know...I guess that just feels more like a "reactive" approach than a "proactive" one to me.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Dantes brought up the guy from the giants. What about him?

Darius Slayton?

At the right price maybe.

I predict what we see in the FA WR market is a handful of teams overpaying for the handful of above average guys. If the Packers get into a bidding war over a guy like Slayton, I would be surprised and disappointed. Just a bad year to try and find a #1 WR in Free Agency IMO or at least pay like he is a #1 WR.

My bang for the buck would be a proven vet, over 30 and not looking for a $20M+/year deal. Just a good, solid guy that wants to end his career with a team like the Packers.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

I look at what the Chiefs did with their WR group this year, pretty impressive given how much they had to shell out.

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[tynimiller]

I look at what the Chiefs did with their WR group this year, pretty impressive given how much they had to shell out.

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None of those guys they signed - Brown, Hopkins, JuJu are 1s at all...Chiefs are blessed that their leading receiver by design isn't a WR but a TE.

Worthy and Kelce are the only guys on KC's roster at both WR and TE that I personally feel is an upgrade vs our best four or five catchers (Kraft, Reed, Watson, Doubs, Wicks).