Two QB Questions

[Wi. Mike now in Florida]

#1...Is Pattrick Mahomes on the way to be the best QA ever?
I believe so if KC surrounds him with talent he needs to win.
Once he leaves the pocket, he can be lethal and fun to watch.

#2...The front office of the Packers had two HOF QB's in camp for over two century's and only
two Super Bowls, one each.
I can't help but believe the Packers completely wasted the opportunity on both QB's by not surrounding them
with the talent they both needed to win more SB's.

Your Thoughts

 

[Poppa San]

#1...Is Pattrick Mahomes on the way to be the best QA ever?
I believe so if KC surrounds him with talent he needs to win.
Once he leaves the pocket, he can be lethal and fun to watch.

#2...The front office of the Packers had two HOF QB's in camp for over two century's and only
two Super Bowls, one each.
I can't help but believe the Packers completely wasted the opportunity on both QB's by not surrounding them
with the talent they both needed to win more SB's.

Your Thoughts

Mind your A's and B's. Also I moved this to the non-Packer area.

Mahomes has a good FO and it appears the major team leaders have avoided serious injury up to now. Their window is about done. Need to see if the FO can rebuild so Mr. Swift can lead what amounts to another team to the promised land.
Question 2 has been discussed ad nauseum on this board and really doesn't rate a response.

 

[OldSchool101]

The front office of the Packers had two HOF QB's in camp for over two century's

Across Two Centuries and 3 Decades ago our QB’s brought forth, on this continent, a new Football team, conceived on Great QB play and dedicated the proposition that all QB’s are not created equal.

 

[Raptorman]

#1...Is Pattrick Mahomes on the way to be the best QA ever?
I believe so if KC surrounds him with talent he needs to win.
Once he leaves the pocket, he can be lethal and fun to watch.

#2...The front office of the Packers had two HOF QB's in camp for over two century's and only
two Super Bowls, one each.
I can't help but believe the Packers completely wasted the opportunity on both QB's by not surrounding them
with the talent they both needed to win more SB's.

Your Thoughts

I'll take on number 2. Any good QB needs a consistent defense to win. If you look at any multiple Super Bowl winning QB's they all have one thing in common. A good defense. Brady had it in New England. Montana had it in SF. Mahomes has it in KC. Starr had it in Green Bay. It's not usually talked about and I get grief over it all the time. But it doesn't seem to change over the years. Think of this. 16 number-one defenses have won the Super Bowl. Only 10 number-one offenses have won the Super Bowl. There are two teams in there that had the number one offense and defense. Miami and Green Bay. And no team that ever broke the NFL offensive scoring record has won the Super Bowl in the year of their record offense.

Very seldom does a team with a defense outside the top 10 in points win the Super Bowl. Matter of fact the only QB to do so more than Once is Eli Manning and the Giants.

 

[rmontro]

I can't help but believe the Packers completely wasted the opportunity on both QB's by not surrounding them
with the talent they both needed to win more SB's.

I think there's some truth to this, but it's kind of a "Is the glass half full or half empty?" question. You might think that it was good that they won two Super Bowls. Anyway, the team made the playoffs nearly every year, so the front office was working under a handicap - they were consistently picking at the bottom of the draft. That was probably one factor hurting their efforts.

 

[Half Empty]

New England? Kansas City? Also, if you consider all the bad teams having a free pick for one player, after that, you're picking in front of everyone else.

 

[rmontro]

New England? Kansas City? Also, if you consider all the bad teams having a free pick for one player, after that, you're picking in front of everyone else.

Kansas City is still relatively early in their journey, as Poppa said, they're window is probably getting ready to close. They haven't had 30 years of HOF quarterbacks. New England is a better example, but they are a very unique team that has accomplished something no other team has been able to replicate. They had a great defensive coach and a GOAT QB who could keep the offense going.

As for the bad teams, one explanation is that they have bad administrations.

 

[Thirteen Below]

As for the bad teams, one explanation is that they have bad administrations.

When I look at what mediocre some teams' front offices are (and what a total dumpster fire some of them are), I just thabnk my lucky stars for what a good situation we have here in Green Bay. I had some mixed feelings about TT, especially the last few years as he seemed to get set in his ways and keep going back to tired old methods that had grown outdated, but I wouldn't trade our current management and coaching staff with any team in the NFL.

 

[OldSchool101]

When Jordan Love started last year you just expected to come up short a year or two due to the newness in Offense. I do however think we’ve got “at worst” a Top 16 QB. I think #10 has the individual talent to rank Top 5 in any given year.

Pat is > Brady from a singular ranking. Put Pat in those NE teams? Hes matching SB’s imo

Pats average starting season is 4,690 yards 36.5 TD 10.3 INT
Brady’s average starting season 4,241
Yards 30.1 TD’s 10.1 INT.
Even accounting for more 16 game seasons, Mahomes wins that battle.

Mahomes career Passer rating 103.5%

Brady career Passer 97.2%

Brady Wins because of longevity. Brady first 6 seasons:
Won Superbowl
Missed
Won Super Bowl
Won Super Bowl
Lost Divisional
Lost NFC game


Mahomes first 6 seasons here’s his record
Lost Conference Championship
Won Super Bowl
Lost Superbowl
Lost Conference Championship
Won Superbowl
Won SuperBowl

Mahomes is also better All-Purpose yards using his legs. Looking at their first 6 seasons each.

Brady’s 435 yards and 3 TD
Mahome’s 1,926 yards and 12 TD
Even if you shave a smidge for 1 extra game on some seasons it’s clearly in favor of Pat

 

[Heyjoe4]

Mind your A's and B's. Also I moved this to the non-Packer area.

Mahomes has a good FO and it appears the major team leaders have avoided serious injury up to now. Their window is about done. Need to see if the FO can rebuild so Mr. Swift can lead what amounts to another team to the promised land.
Question 2 has been discussed ad nauseum on this board and really doesn't rate a response.

Thanks. The #2 question really has been beaten to death, and no one can change what did our din't happen anyway.

As for Mahomes, he could win another 3 or 4 SBs, or none. It's just too hard to predict this stuff. I didn't think the Chiefs were an elite team last season and wouldn't win the SB. First thought wrong, as usual.

 

[OldSchool101]

Thanks. The #2 question really has been beaten to death, and no one can change what did our din't happen anyway.

As for Mahomes, he could win another 3 or 4 SBs, or none. It's just too hard to predict this stuff. I didn't think the Chiefs were an elite team last season and wouldn't win the SB. First thought wrong, as usual.

Well yeah KC looked like crap early on last season and like they might even miss Postseason. Nope

 

[Heyjoe4]

Well yeah KC looked like crap early on last season and like they might even miss Postseason. Nope

Right. And even going into the post season, they weren't a favorite to repeat. But put Reid, Mahomes and Co. on a big stage and they produce. Three times now and probably more to come. Reid rightfully gets a lot of credit. A lot of it is on Mahomes. I remember the year before he badly sprained his ankle in the playoffs, but just kept producing.

And I think the 2011 Packer SB team started from the sixth and last seed, and then weren't favored to beat the Steelers in the SB. So there really is something behind teams playing well in December and January, getting into the playoffs and tearing it up.

That's one reason that the first Wild Card weekend is so much fun to watch. There's bound to be an upset or two.

 

[rmontro]

And I think the 2011 Packer SB team started from the sixth and last seed, and then weren't favored to beat the Steelers in the SB.

I didn't remember that the Steelers were favored to win that Super Bowl. I just remember every playoff game we played, I was confident we were going to win. We were on that kind of a roll. And for some reason, when I heard the Black Eyed Peas were going to play the halftime show, I had a feeling we were going to win. Odd, and I don't even believe in any sort of clairvoyance or psychic phenomenon, to be clear. It was just a gut feeling.

There seems to be a lot of hostility among the Packers fanbase towards Rodgers now, and I really think that wouldn't be there if they had won another Super Bowl while he was here.

 

[OldSchool101]

Me still thinks that yes, #12 could’ve been responsible for 1 more missed SB visit. Yet it takes a team to win. If we recall the Steelers gave us a scare in the second half. It often comes down to a few plays on O or D or ST that cost a SB

2014 was on ST. They cost us a SB visit that wasn’t Rodgers fault imo. Also was it 2021 that our ST that was horrendous. I mean totally pathetic to the point many of us called our demise ahead of time. We had botched Kicks all YEAR! That wasn’t Rodgers fault either imo. It was a mixed bag of tricks for why we missed several SB opportunities. We were a few small adjustments earlier in the season and a few individual Bosticks away from likely winning 1 more SB

 

[El Guapo]

I can't help but believe the Packers completely wasted the opportunity on both QB's by not surrounding them
with the talent they both needed to win more SB's.

State your case for how they "wasted" the opportunities, making sure that salary cap and all other factors are included in your response. Just saying that they wasted it without any factual support is just internet click-bait. It's not like the Packers didn't try to win. Many QBs had great careers with only one or zero SB victories:

1 SB Win
Drew Brees
Kurt Warner
Joe Namath

0 SB Wins
Boomer Esiason
Matt Ryan
Dan Fouts
Steve McNair
Donovan McNabb
Fran Tarkenton
Dan Marino

There's probably one or two teams that "wasted" a QB's career, but it's just the realities of pro sports. It's hard to win the big game, let alone reach it in the first place.

 

[rmontro]

2014 was on ST. They cost us a SB visit that wasn’t Rodgers fault imo.

If you're going to point to one thing, yeah that ST play was the most glaring error. But how many times did the offense stall in the red zone that game? Why did it have to come down to that ST play? Team game, team loss.

 

[Thirteen Below]

If you're going to point to one thing, yeah that ST play was the most glaring error. But how many times did the offense stall in the red zone that game? Why did it have to come down to that ST play? Team game, team loss.

You nailed the way I see it.

This is the ten-thousandth iteration of the same debate Packer fans have been having since the George W. Bush presidency - we lose a playoff game we had damned good reason for believing we should have won, and half the fans blame the quarterback for losing the game while the other half blames the team as a whole for losing.

And both sides are half right, and half wrong.

I don't really hold Rodgers accountable for losing those playoff games, because as you say - team game, team effort, team win or loss. A couple of the games (like the NCFCG against the Niners in 22), he just plain choked. Her did lose that game; he blew numerous drives by insisting on forcing the ball to Adams, who was repeatedly either doubled or tripled because the Niners knew where was throwing on every key play. In the end, he did lose the game by ignoring a wide-open Lazard and throwing to a double-covbered Adams, an that's the one we remember the most, but he killed many other drives prior to that because he simply choked.

But there were several other games in which even if he did not singlehandedly blow it, he had opportunities to win it, and he just fell short when the team needed him to step up. I'm not necessarily blaming him for losing those games, but I am holding him accountable for not winning them. Because that's what he was paid to to do - win games that other quarterbacks might not have been able to win.

I haven't checked the numbers this year, but as of last season Aaron Rodgers was the highest paid player in the history of the NFL. He got those contracts on the grounds that he was supposedly the best quarterback in the league, a guy the team could count to win games that other QBs would not have been able to win. And time and time again, when his team needed him to step up and win those games, he was unable to do it. He failed to deliver on a number of occasions, when lesser quarterbacks on lesser teams stepped up for their team and found a way to win that game.

He got paid because he was supposedly a guy we could count on to put the team on his shoulders and win tough games, and aside from the 2009-2010 playoff run, he couldn't do it.

 

[El Guapo]

He got paid because he was supposedly a guy we could count on to put the team on his shoulders and win tough games, and aside from the 2009-2010 playoff run, he couldn't do it.

I would boil it all down to say that he was a good enough QB to win the tough games. The Packers assessment was always that he didn't have a good enough defense to match (2014 NFCCG included) so we spent a lot of draft capital on defense and never really improved to anything but an average defense. Part of that was coaching. Part of that was the players drafted. One could say that we "wasted" a lot of good picks, but it was in effort to make this a balanced SB team. We almost always had an offense (save for the later years) that could have won a SB with the right defense.

 

[OldSchool101]

If you're going to point to one thing, yeah that ST play was the most glaring error. But how many times did the offense stall in the red zone that game? Why did it have to come down to that ST play? Team game, team loss.

Because as I’ve said if we simply knock the ball out of bounds.. it’s game over. Its never the only play, but it was the pinnacle play that changed the momentum.